[Book Spoilers] EP107 Early Discussion

[tybeechris]

GRRM didn't "show" the king getting gored, nor his death in the books. Why would you people (obviously more than just you, many others have stated the desire for more scenes of Robert when they weren't in the book) want stuff that's not in the book, that characters in the show find out when we find out, that are unnecessary in that regard, over well structured double and triple entendre, mood setting scenes with tittilating eye candy as a bonus? What would showing Robert get gored add to the show? No one in the books really saw it (POV characters at least) so that exposition is exactly the same as in the books and adds intrigue later on when the discussion of how the King died reaches conspiracy level.

There's obviously a reason they're showing Ros so much. You're going to have to get used to the idea that with all the character combinings and eliminations that are necessary to transfer this to TV, that she has a bigger role to play. I highly doubt they have her in the show so much for no reason whatsoever. You all, for the most part, seem to be largely happy with the show, so show a little faith int he guys that are entertaining you so much that there's a reason for Ros' repeat appearances.

For crying out loud, I never in my 39 years thought I'd ever hear even so much as an eighth so much bitching from fantasy book geeks about TOO MANY BOOBIES being shown on a great adaptation of an all time great fantasy series!

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Edited...the below is my comment, I think I messed up somehow and the original post is not "blocked"...sorry OP, don't know how to detach what I did.

All I can think about during the gratuitous sex scenes is "Is this going to cost HBO viewers?" I want the show renewed again and again. I don't mind the sex, just not so much of it.

[Borias]

Something I liked about the scene with Tywin is it gives us a better visual of the man. In the book, it's a bit easier to understand why Tywin is a ruthless head of household. If all we see him doing is going over letters and maps and scolding his kids, why would he be feared? However, now we see him doing some pretty decent bloody knifework, at the same time scolding the shit out of the kingslayer. What we saw is a man that doesn't fuck around. He gets shit done, and you WILL obey him. Also, being talked down to by someone carving up a corpse would probably put anyone off their game a bit.

If it happened in a study with him over a book it wouldn't have nearly the same impact. While most children have automatic deference and respect, and maybe even a little fear of their parents, it doesn't translate well when it's shown 3rd person.(Why is super badass Jaime afraid of the dude in the library again? sort of question)

Oh god. I can't wait for my non book reader friends to see this episode, and what happens in the following 3. And they all love Sean Bean so much.....

[DurararaFTW]

For crying out loud, I never in my 39 years thought I'd ever hear even so much as an eighth so much bitching from fantasy book geeks about TOO MANY BOOBIES being shown on a great adaptation of an all time great fantasy series!

well surprise, surprise, people actually aren't so juvenile to be happy about character development being shortchanged for sexscenes.

[Trinket]

Something I liked about the scene with Tywin is it gives us a better visual of the man. In the book, it's a bit easier to understand why Tywin is a ruthless head of household. If all we see him doing is going over letters and maps and scolding his kids, why would he be feared? However, now we see him doing some pretty decent bloody knifework, at the same time scolding the shit out of the kingslayer. What we saw is a man that doesn't fuck around. He gets shit done, and you WILL obey him. Also, being talked down to by someone carving up a corpse would probably put anyone off their game a bit.

If it happened in a study with him over a book it wouldn't have nearly the same impact. While most children have automatic deference and respect, and maybe even a little fear of their parents, it doesn't translate well when it's shown 3rd person.(Why is super badass Jaime afraid of the dude in the library again? sort of question)

Oh god. I can't wait for my non book reader friends to see this episode, and what happens in the following 3. And they all love Sean Bean so much.....

See, I thought the stag part took away that fear for Tywin. He doesn't need to be holding a weapon to be feared. Tywin in the books is to be a stern and harsh man who inspires fear by just being in the room, and by being an authority figure.

About him skinning the stag because he is a hunter who likes to do everything himself...I don't think Tywin IS a hunter, at least not on the level that he enjoys it very much. He is not conveyed as a man who has many pleasures in the books. He lives for his work, which is keeping the Lannister name strong.

He does not bloody his hand personally, he has others bloodying their hands for him. Gregor Clegane bloodies his hands personally. Tywin doesn't do anything with half measures, but that doesn't mean he has to personally go out and stab the people he wants dead. He pulls his strings and sends his men and whoever he wants dead ends up dead.

Tywin gets things done by commanding fear and respect.

I also do think that it can be portrayed well on tv, if coupled with good acting and writing. Powerful men have been portrayed on TV before. Throw in some examples of the things Tywin is capable of doing (NOT that he is capable of skinning a stag...I think even westeros women are capable of that considering that this is an age where you cannot buy your meat at the grocery store) and the point will come across even better.

[Ser Greguh]

well surprise, surprise, people actually aren't so juvenile to be happy about character development being shortchanged for sexscenes.

Well surprise, surprise, some of us are mature enough to understand that a scene that has boobies in it is not necessarily also a scene that shortchanges character development. For anyone paying attention, not distracted by the sex, and that has a brain cell or two to rub together, that scene did almost as much to develop Littlefinger as any one scene has done to develop any character thusfar in the series. It's one thing if you're a prude and dislike sex or nudity, but don't pretend that anyone that reacts with something other than disgust to a scene that features those things is doing so only because they're a horny teenager.

[JagfyrBlackfyre]

Quit the bitchin peeplz, this episode was great. Tywin's introduction was way more formidable than in the books, and I was glad to witness a dialogue that did not occur in the books at all. The complexity of Jaime's character was well touched upon in the scene, and Tywin provided an interesting opinion regarding the motivations of any ambitious house in Westeros. Also, why wouldn't Tywin flay a stag as he was doing. He may prefer to not charge into battle on the front lines, but he is hardly afraid to get his hands dirty by still leading the reserve troops, tending to shae, brutally rendering the reynes of castamere extinct.

With the Roz-Littlefinger brothel scene, I will admit that it was a tad long in a story where theres so much more to develop on and showcase, but it still made for a great scene. Littlefinger's motivations are a fascinating element all throughout books as well. What he is trying to play at can leave even the best reader vexed and excited to see more, so having a scene like this added in was great, as I feel that it added to my perception of him even after being four books deep. The sex definitely made the dialogue a bit harder to follow (quite a pleasant distraction), but it was still fitting for the locale, for framing what littlefinger says, and within the context of a story that heavily involves whores and brothels as necessary plot elements. Littlefinger also gets a more sinister mien about him during this scene, which sets up the end of the episode better for a non reader. We never had a Catelyn chapter detailing Littlefinger's fight with (Big) Brandon Stark in a convenient third person voice, so that history has to get laid out somewhere. And what better way to do it than amongst a portrayal of superficial and self-serving sex - like the kind Littlefinger likely wanted with Catelyn.

Roz is hot and she has a wicked way of portraying her character so seeing more of her is fine by me. Likely she will be important in developing certain plot elements like the state of kings landing before the blackwater battle, and may even replace chataya or alaya at some point. Throughout the books, there is little focus on the common folk, and Roz provides a bit of that necessary perspective to get the full picture of this world.

Re-living the tense ending of the episode still evoked the same feelings of outrage I experienced while reading the book, even though I knew exactly what was coming. I chalk that up to excellent acting more than anything else. The cast is really great, despite the fact that casting so many odd and colorful characters, as well as less experienced children, seems especially hard to do. Also Khal Drogo's dialogue near the end was awesome. I felt pumped to plunder and kick some Westerosi ass after seeing that

[DurararaFTW]

Well surprise, surprise, some of us are mature enough to understand that a scene that has boobies in it is not necessarily also a scene that shortchanges character development. For anyone paying attention, not distracted by the sex, and that has a brain cell or two to rub together, that scene did almost as much to develop Littlefinger as any one scene has done to develop any character thusfar in the series. It's one thing if you're a prude and dislike sex or nudity, but don't pretend that anyone that reacts with something other than disgust to a scene that features those things is doing so only because they're a horny teenager.

Yeah it develops him about three seasons in advance and completely gives away what was one of the major twists in the first book before the respective scene happens. In exchange Cersei doesn't kill his baby just because it's Robert's. Which seemed important to me. Robert doesn't lament his poor kinghood as even worse then Aerys', and now never will, and I could go on and on. So no. Just some naked ladies does not make up for that in my opinion. And I'm gonna be very surprised if whatever role Roz is gonna play is gonna change his mind.

[ryamano]

Yeah it develops him about three seasons in advance and completely gives away what was one of the major twists in the first book before the respective scene happens. In exchange Cersei doesn't kill his baby just because it's Robert's. Which seemed important to me. Robert doesn't lament his poor kinghood as even worse then Aerys', and now never will, and I could go on and on. So no. Just some naked ladies does not make up for that in my opinion. And I'm gonna be very surprised if whatever role Roz is gonna play is gonna change his mind.

Something I noticed in the TV series is that their approach to events is different from the books.

In the books it's: events happens - > consequences happen -> character shows his motivations for doing the event that way.

In the tv series its: character shows his motivation -> event happens -> consequences happen

LF's betrayal, Ned's death, the red wedding, Renly's "ghost" appearing in the battle of King's Landing, Jofrey's death, etc are examples of this in the books.

I think this may be due to a different form of storytelling due to the difference in media. It's a choice the TV show has made. If it's good or bad depends on individual taste. I don't like it, but I understand their choice and understand that they're sticking with it. Also, the TV show doesn't have to mirror the book completely in the reveals. The TV show has used POVs of Cersei and Jaime that appear only in books 3 and 4 to show them in better light than they're portrayed in book 1 (in which they seem almost one dimensional villains).

[smegma]

As far as the Tywin scene goes, at first I wasn't sure if I was totally on board with the portrayal of him cleaning the stag. For much the same reasons as people have mentioned - that he wouldn't be doing that, he doesn't get his hands dirty, he lets other people clean up his messes, etc. However, I gave it further consideration and I think it was an absolutely epic way to bring in a character that needs to be called attention to. Plus, in addition to the obvious metaphor, it shows him getting shit done. While having a powerful conversation with Jaime. Commanding presence while expertly and without pause dressing his kill. Unforgettable way to bring in a character, and still seeing the Tywin of the books can make sense.

If you read the Television Without Pity noobs thread, several of them have made comments about who the frig is this Tywin guy that could have fathered these three incredible characters. They are fascinated by him and they haven't had a moment to see him yet - well I think that scene very well introduces "this is the guy that can raise twins that fuck each other and a dwarf with a silvered tongue". Another excellently written scene that was not in the books - these seem to be my favorites!

[ryamano]

I liked Tywyn's introduction. I thought it was weird that he was dressing the carcass, but still, that scene served to establish so much: his ruthlessness, his desire to be respected, his relatioship with his kids, etc. It also served to convey that this guy can strike fear and awe in the hearts of others. Great choice in the actor, who portrayed Tywyn very well, even if he doesn't look much like what I thought (side whiskers).

[Tywin's bastard]

The other thing about the hunt is that...I just don't see Tywin going off to hunt. Or really do much of anything 'fun'. When there could be any small bit of strategy wrung out of his counselors, or his looking at maps, or really anything - I don't see him taking the time to go and hunt.

As an example, Tywin never leaves Harrenhall's offices. Never. They bring food up to him but he's described as being always in counsel until he leaves.

I think that if he did choose to hunt he'd probably want to excel at it, but it ultimately depends on what his goal is for hunting. If he wanted to get meat or get something killed, I doubt he'd have any problem letting someone else do it for him.

It just seemed a bit off to me. It wasn't nearly as bad as littlefinger explaining his psychology to some random whores he just picked up, mind you.

But what you're talking about is the official persona of Tywin Lannister, which also tells us that he wouldn't even think of degrade himself by sleeping with a whore. We all know how true that really is. I find it a tad unbelievable that even a driven man would never do something for entertainment, or at the very least to relax himself and clear his head, and my previously mentioned activity shows that Tywin is not made of stone.

To hunt is a noble sport for the nobility and skinning the animal yourself is certainly a part of the ritual. The nobles never hunt because they need to, they do it because it's a manly thing to do. I don't think this alters his character in any relevant way.

[Tywin's bastard]

Edited...the below is my comment, I think I messed up somehow and the original post is not "blocked"...sorry OP, don't know how to detach what I did.

All I can think about during the gratuitous sex scenes is "Is this going to cost HBO viewers?" I want the show renewed again and again. I don't mind the sex, just not so much of it.

Have you watched True Blood? That has long sex scenes where no other information is being presented (contrary to GoT sex scenes which almost always gives us back story or character development) and it's been constantly growing in viewers. Sex does not turn off many people that would subscribe to HBO since that's a network that doesn't have any double standards when it comes to sex vs violence.

As for your quote troubles, you accidentally ended the last tag with a } instead of a ].

[Queen Dorothea]

To hunt is a noble sport for the nobility and skinning the animal yourself is certainly a part of the ritual. The nobles never hunt because they need to, they do it because it's a manly thing to do. I don't think this alters his character in any relevant way.

This. High society sport.

[silkymoonshine]

Have you watched True Blood? That has long sex scenes where no other information is being presented (contrary to GoT sex scenes which almost always gives us back story or character development) and it's been constantly growing in viewers. Sex does not turn off many people that would subscribe to HBO since that's a network that doesn't have any double standards when it comes to sex vs violence.

As for your quote troubles, you accidentally ended the last tag with a } instead of a ].

Well, True Blood is basically a soft core porn now. HBO has never shyed away from sex - every HBO I've ever seen has had a lot of sex and most of it is gratuitous. Rome always upped the sex and violence scenes when there wasn't much going with the plot. At least with GoT, I think *most* of the sex scenes serve a purpose - and the Littlefinger one was great for his character development.

The only gripe I have with this episode is that the Tywin scene should have been at the end. It was the highest point of the episode and sadly the rest of it didn't live up to it - it was an amazing episode, but the scene with Tywin and Jaime is my favorite scene in the series so far. It was perfect.

I'm starting to worry what they're going to do with NCW in the second season - Jaime is a prisoner for most of CoK and I think his presence will be very missed.

[Kaitscralt]

I'm starting to worry what they're going to do with NCW in the second season - Jaime is a prisoner for most of CoK and I think his presence will be very missed.

They'll still show him. Jaime was even more absent in the first book than the second, and most of the made up scenes for season one have featured NCW.

[Greywolf2375]

The other thing about the hunt is that...I just don't see Tywin going off to hunt. Or really do much of anything 'fun'. When there could be any small bit of strategy wrung out of his counselors, or his looking at maps, or really anything - I don't see him taking the time to go and hunt.

As an example, Tywin never leaves Harrenhall's offices. Never. They bring food up to him but he's described as being always in counsel until he leaves.

I think that if he did choose to hunt he'd probably want to excel at it, but it ultimately depends on what his goal is for hunting. If he wanted to get meat or get something killed, I doubt he'd have any problem letting someone else do it for him.

It just seemed a bit off to me. It wasn't nearly as bad as littlefinger explaining his psychology to some random whores he just picked up, mind you.

Had a lot of thoughts about this episode, but looks like Kal has pretty much said everything I was thinking all ready.

Tywin has people; whether it's the Mountain or Roose or the Westerlings, he has people do his dirty work. I can't remember, but I think there is even a quote from him at one point about having certain types for certain jobs.

Great episode, I think I enjoyed Ep 6 slightly more, but this was still exceptionally good.

Oh, and I will go to war with Khal Drogo. I agree with the comment that his speech was not anyone, but to the stars and heavens. Going to vry disappointing when we (hopefully) see Dany snuff him.

[L’Age d’or]

I don't mind the sex scenes but I was deeply disturbed by Viserys' crowning and even the knife through the eye of Jory.

You know, sometimes I feel the world would be better if more people thought like me.

Dude how did you manage to finish the books?

[L’Age d’or]

The other thing about the hunt is that...I just don't see Tywin going off to hunt. Or really do much of anything 'fun'. When there could be any small bit of strategy wrung out of his counselors, or his looking at maps, or really anything - I don't see him taking the time to go and hunt.

As an example, Tywin never leaves Harrenhall's offices. Never. They bring food up to him but he's described as being always in counsel until he leaves.

I think that if he did choose to hunt he'd probably want to excel at it, but it ultimately depends on what his goal is for hunting. If he wanted to get meat or get something killed, I doubt he'd have any problem letting someone else do it for him.

It just seemed a bit off to me. It wasn't nearly as bad as littlefinger explaining his psychology to some random whores he just picked up, mind you.

I quite liked the skinning and cleaning the stag scene. It gave the scene a profound intensity that could never be achieved with him looking at a map or writing a letter. Tywin might not be your regular hunter like Robert, but I could def see him going hunting casually while camping with his Army and subsequently preparing it for cooking. If you ask me its an act of sublimation to release the tension brought by his son's stupidity and Cat's kidnapping of Tyrion.

[Frumpus]

Dude how did you manage to finish the books?

Maybe he didn't read them? I found Viserys' death disturbing in the books largely because I didn't expect it and I also thought it was a sad and pathetic way for him to die, but watching it on the tv show I didn't flinch at all (mostly because I was expecting it).

I probably would have been bothered by the death on the tv show if I had not read the books.

[Wunhopkuendo]

As far as the Tywin scene goes, at first I wasn't sure if I was totally on board with the portrayal of him cleaning the stag. For much the same reasons as people have mentioned - that he wouldn't be doing that, he doesn't get his hands dirty, he lets other people clean up his messes, etc. However, I gave it further consideration and I think it was an absolutely epic way to bring in a character that needs to be called attention to. Plus, in addition to the obvious metaphor, it shows him getting shit done. While having a powerful conversation with Jaime. Commanding presence while expertly and without pause dressing his kill. Unforgettable way to bring in a character, and still seeing the Tywin of the books can make sense.

If you read the Television Without Pity noobs thread, several of them have made comments about who the frig is this Tywin guy that could have fathered these three incredible characters. They are fascinated by him and they haven't had a moment to see him yet - well I think that scene very well introduces "this is the guy that can raise twins that fuck each other and a dwarf with a silvered tongue". Another excellently written scene that was not in the books - these seem to be my favorites!

I really like this post. Everyone noble in the realm hunts for sport. There isn't tv or movies or the gym or, god forbid, Westeros message boards. If Tywin was the kind of person that spent all of his time locked behind doors pouring over charts and maps, he would fall out of shape pretty fast. He may not be a great warrior, but he still needs to be able to ride a horse, use his bow, be comfortable stalking prey, etc. The skinning of the stag is probably another way for him to keep in shape, plus I can't imagine too many nobles skinning their own kill. But Tywin can do it while discussing strategy with his son, and not miss a beat. TV viewers should be thinking something along the lines of "this dude is pretty bad ass".

Last thing I will say about the LF scene: If it had to be in, why couldn't it have been in next episode or anytime after his betrayal of Ned. It just gives away too much. I honestly feel that HBO thinks all the viewers need to be spoon fed or they won't get it, but everyone I know knew he was going to betray Ned after that scene, thus gone is the surprise. I really hope they don't make a habit of this. I want viewers to be as surprised by certain events as I was when reading the book. Especially Ned's fate. If they ruin that one, I will be pissed.