Syrio Forel = Jaqen H'ghar?

[Greywolf2375]

As much as I enjoyed Syrio's character, it saddens me to say this, but he is likely dead. it would be neat if Syrio wasn't dead and had somehow gotten out of King's Landing, but Jaqen H'gar = Syrio Forel? I don't buy it. Syrio Forel = Jaqen H'gar = The Alchemist = Pate = ???

If you take the Syrio = Jaqen out of your formula, then it is accurate. We just haven't been given the definitive reason as to why he needs to be in Oldtown.

[Oberyn Sand]

If you take the Syrio = Jaqen out of your formula, then it is accurate. We just haven't been given the definitive reason as to why he needs to be in Oldtown.

Well yeah, that part of it doesn't make sense to me. I mean, you'd think the "First Sword" of Braavos would be able to beat the shit out of one member of the Kingsguard. But then what? T.T Does he high tail it out of Westeros or is he Jaqen H'gar? I personally think Jaqen H'gar is Jaqen H'gar, but honestly..I'm not entirely sure I can dismiss the Jaqen H'gar = Syrio Forel theory.

[Lady Jon Snow]

If you take the Syrio = Jaqen out of your formula, then it is accurate. We just haven't been given the definitive reason as to why he needs to be in Oldtown.

Here's my theory on the matter (please point out any holes)... Yes Syrio = Jaqen = Pate for one simple reason, the Faceless Men are trying to gain information on dragons or the others based in books that are very rare, so rare in fact that the only remaining copies would be either at the Winterfell Library or Oldtown (Citadel). We know from GOT that Tyrion finds the Winterfell library to have books that "he doubted even the Maesters in Oldtown have seen" and he reads of dragons. Now we know that at this point the Others have risen (based on GOT prologue), so it could be safe to assume that the Faceless Men feel some sort of surge in power or balance and send out one of their own to investigate all of the knowledge associated with the history of Westeros. So how do you get to Winterfell and gain access to the library, very simply by gaining access to the Stark household. Then everything goes down in Kings Landing and Syrio replaces his face with Jaqen H'gar to gain a ride to Winterfell (I do believe the Stark's library was the intent as it is known for having a huge and rare selection that GRRM mentions a few times and then is burned). At Harranhal word of the burning of Winterfell reaches Arya and Jaqen and he rethinks to go south to the Citadel where he kills Pate and takes his identity. Syrio=Jaqen=Pate now has access (having the master key that unlocks every room/lock) to find any book or knowledge that is kept there. Plus the Maesters hated the dragons and some speculate they had a hand in killing off the dragons (who better to have knowledge of everything mythical/magical). And we also know that Sam is there with 1.) knowledge from the books he read at the Wall and 2.) first hand accounts of the Others/Wights north of the Wall.

[Lummel]

Unfortunately Syrio=Jaqen is impossible time wise. Jaqen is released to the watch before Meryn Trant comes with his guardsmen to interrupt the dancing lesson.

[Lady Jon Snow]

Is there a specific timeline or just speculation on the timeline? Ned tells the Yoren he can have the men for the Watch, but who's to say that Syrio isn't aware of this fact and there is a lot of time between when Ned gives Yoren the okay for the men and when Yoren leaves for the Wall. Would Yoren really free these 3 highly dangerous prisoners first and then wait the weeks until they departed for the wall (the time Ned is imprisioned and Arya is in Fleebottom), or could they have been "released to the Wall" but still been held captive somewhere where Syrio could have replaced his face with the former Jaqen. It's farther fetched, but nothing beyond what GRRM has pulled before... whenever reading the books it seems like people aren't dead unless we know for sure (Davos, possibly Ashara Dayne ect) and he loves playing with people's identities and giving false identities to important side characters.

[Lummel]

Yes there's a specific timeline in that The Ned orders the release to the watch of the black cells three, they are released under The Ned's authority (we know this because Longwaters the jailer notices and is still complaining about this to Jaime in AFFC), at some later point King Bob dies and the coup takes place. There no overlap in which syrio and Jaqen could have possibly existed in the same space within the terms set out by the books.

Besides which we know that Jaqen becomes Pate to go to Oldtown. So why would Syrio become Jaqen just to get dragged up to the Riverlands? Makes no sense.

Davos was a different situation - reported dead via unreliable witnesses (people would had never met Davos previously).

[The Shadowbinder]

I like your theory. I've never heard a plausible explanation for the geographic movements of jaqen/pâté/syrio but I like your idea with the library - which is mentioned many times.

I don't think the Yoren picking up three prisoners timeline makes this impossible. Assuming Yoren already had Jaqen and co. the faceless man could have still killed Jaqen and taken his identity at any point without Yoren being the wiser. That would also explain biter and rourges fear of Jaqen.

[Errant Bard]

It's farther fetched, but nothing beyond what GRRM has pulled before...

Like what, for example?

[Lummel]

...I don't think the Yoren picking up three prisoners timeline makes this impossible. Assuming Yoren already had Jaqen and co. the faceless man could have still killed Jaqen and taken his identity at any point without Yoren being the wiser. That would also explain biter and rourges fear of Jaqen.

Think about it.

It requires knowledge of Yoren's movements and whereabouts by Syrio. Syrio to survive, escape and find Yoren. Smuggle himself into captivity and to eat the real jaqen whole before shackling himself to the wagon without Yoren ever being aware.

If you have a character capable of doing all that, what reason, other than a perserve desire to make ones own life as complex as possible, would he have to chain himself to wagon taking him to the wall? The library suggestion would only be a good one if we didn't know that Jaqen Pate wants to go to Oldtown. Being taken under lock and key in the opposite direction doesn't help him do that.

[Caz]

All this talk of finding dragon knowledge just adds fuel to the small fire that is my crackpot theory; Jaqen H'ghar is Daario Naharis because what better way to find out stuff about dragons than to be within close proximity to them and their 'mother?' I like my theory, bonkers though it is, and until I find anything to the contrary, I'm sticking with it. :P

[GregorBlackfinger]

I always thought it was pretty easy to figure out.

Syrio Forrell = Dead.

[Lady Jon Snow]

I always thought it was pretty easy to figure out.

Syrio Forrell = Dead.

Could be. But we only have Arya's POV on the matter and not definitive proof. However we do have idle speculation since it'll be awhile before this is (possibly) addressed in the next book.

[Lady Jon Snow]

Like what, for example?

In my mind the Hound being alive, Bran/Rickon being dead while really it's the Miller's boys, Reek/Ramsay, Theon/Reek. People are not always who the reader thinks they are and it's all from people's memories or POV which is hardly infallible. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it does lead one to wonder about any "definitive" bits of information in the story. Plus there's a whole lot of reading between the lines that causes both a better understanding of the text (the Frey Pie,ect) and also one to read more into things than we might otherwise.

[Lady Jon Snow]

I like your theory. I've never heard a plausible explanation for the geographic movements of jaqen/pâté/syrio but I like your idea with the library - which is mentioned many times.

I don't think the Yoren picking up three prisoners timeline makes this impossible. Assuming Yoren already had Jaqen and co. the faceless man could have still killed Jaqen and taken his identity at any point without Yoren being the wiser. That would also explain biter and rourges fear of Jaqen.

Exactly my thoughts too! Why would Biter and Rourges fear Jaqen if he just was another prisoner in the black cells. He would certainly be dangerous, but those two are psychotic, so it stands to reason Jaqen showed off his faceless man awesomeness to them somehow and put the fear right into them. Makes sense if while all three were tied up a guy came by, kills one, takes his face, gets rid of the body and sits down next to them. Kinda explains Rourge and Biters actions around Jaqen and with Arya.

[Lady Jon Snow]

Sorry tried to multiquote and it kept crashing my computer... here's the last one:

Think about it.

It requires knowledge of Yoren's movements and whereabouts by Syrio. Syrio to survive, escape and find Yoren. Smuggle himself into captivity and to eat the real jaqen whole before shackling himself to the wagon without Yoren ever being aware.

If you have a character capable of doing all that, what reason, other than a perserve desire to make ones own life as complex as possible, would he have to chain himself to wagon taking him to the wall? The library suggestion would only be a good one if we didn't know that Jaqen Pate wants to go to Oldtown. Being taken under lock and key in the opposite direction doesn't help him do that.

Okay I'm not implying he ate the entire old Jaqen, but rather just thinking it could be possible that he killed him, disposed of the body (flee bottom brown soup seems to be a reoccurring place) and positioned himself as the prisoner. And yes I believe if anyone could do this without being caught it would be a Faceless Man. He’s been trained to watch with more than his eyes, so yes he would know what Yoren is up to as well as the political climate in Kings Landing. He would have multiple plans for whatever went down, seems like that’s how Arya is being trained. Now would Syrio/faceless man go to all this trouble to go North if he wants to go South? My theory is that he wanted to get to Winterfell originally, not Oldtown, to gain access to the Winterfell Library... therefore with war about to break out (Syrio would know this because he knows that the Lannisters are making a move against the Starks and surely the Starks/North will retaliate in some way), the prospect for safe passage through the North to Winterfell now is with the Night's Watch and once they are on the Kings Road by Winterfell he pulls another Alchamist and gains access to the Stark library. However things go wrong when Winterfell is burned (which Jaqen learns about at Harrenhal) and then decides to go South to Oldtown. Oldtown is now the new destination and the answer is why... what does the master key gain him access to? Information. Information that the Winterfell library (prior to Ramsay razing it) would have held.

[Lummel]

No, no, the only reason why I mention eating the original Jaqen is that Syrio in that scenario has to minimise the potential for any evidence to found that a switch has occured. Unlocking Jaqen and carrying off his body to a pot shop opens up the possibility that the wagon would be spotted having a missing person.

I understand your theory - but it's an awful lot of trouble. If a faceless man had wanted access to the winterfell library the easiest way to do would be to turn up at winterfell with an entourage pretending to be a nobleman or better a scholar from Essos. They have the money and power to do this. Or sneak in and steal it, copy it, return it. They appear to have the power to this. No need for the Syrio relationship with Arya bit at all.

Plus your theory assumes he is always going to get access to relevant information (in addition to the superpowers required to escape capture and get out of Kings Landing :) ).

[Lummel]

In my mind the Hound being alive, Bran/Rickon being dead while really it's the Miller's boys, Reek/Ramsay, Theon/Reek. People are not always who the reader thinks they are and it's all from people's memories or POV which is hardly infallible. Doesn't mean I'm right, but it does lead one to wonder about any "definitive" bits of information in the story. Plus there's a whole lot of reading between the lines that causes both a better understanding of the text (the Frey Pie,ect) and also one to read more into things than we might otherwise.

Frey pies is clearly flagged from Guest gifts to the Rat Cook. For your Syrio=Jaqen theory you have to make a whole great long series of assumptions that there is no support for in the text (survives the fight with Trant, escapes the red keep, evades capture, knows that yoren is leaving, finds yoren, disposes of the original jaqen, finds out about the destruction of the winterfell library). It's very imaginative but it is a lot of extra work for no result (plus of course you have to throw out the noble self sacrifice of Syrio - otherwise an unusual act of chivalry in the series!)

[red fork]

Imho it's oooobvious that's Syrio = Jaqen - it makes perfect sense, and in the Harrenhal godswood Jaqen basically gives it up - there's no way he could know she's Arya Stark unless he *already* knew!

If it looks like a duck...

[corbon]

Imho it's oooobvious that's Syrio = Jaqen - it makes perfect sense, and in the Harrenhal godswood Jaqen basically gives it up - there's no way he could know she's Arya Stark unless he *already* knew! If it looks like a duck...

Of course there is a way. He notices that Arry always goes away to piss alone and in particular he notices the Arya/Gendry/goldcloaks thing, where Arry assumes the goldcloaks have come for her. Perhaps he also looks at her elbows or something else similar.

It's not exactly a difficult deduction.

As to if it looks like a duck... Syrio was not a FM. Indeed, his philosophy in the series (episode written by GRRM) is opposite to FM. Everything he did or said, including sacrificing himself (his death) to allow Arya to escape was internally consistent and opposite to FM. Everything about him not dying is problematic, inconsistent, flawed, opposite to the things he said. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it is unlikely that it successfully moos like a cow, tunnels like a mole and swings like a monkey in order to actually turn out to be a swan - just so a bit part character that was pretty entertaining can stay around..

[Errant Bard]

Doesn't mean I'm right, but it does lead one to wonder about any "definitive" bits of information in the story.

But misinformation doesn't make something far-fetched, what makes your theory far-fetched is its very concept, which isn't the case for the examples you brought forward.

Nothing wrong with scapegoats or body doubles, it's just straightforward, however a narrative that involves someone knowing things he shouldn't, not killing people he should have, not protecting girls he should have, making bodies disappear, putting himself in chains for no reason, then at one time deciding that he'll go the other way, just because (and in some theories, seeing the future and knowing Yoren would grab Arya), is not straightforward nor about misinformation

Imho it's oooobvious that's Syrio = Jaqen - it makes perfect sense, and in the Harrenhal godswood Jaqen basically gives it up - there's no way he could know she's Arya Stark unless he *already* knew!

Let me remind you of some things:

1. Yoren did get her at the last minute, just after Ned Stark's execution: she wasn't in prison or anything.
   
2. She loudly claims Needle is castle-forged and not stolen to Hot Pie, in their disagreement after the KL flight
   
3. She gives Hot Pie a trashing using Water Dancing skills, skill that only noble, rich brats get
   
4. When city guards reach Yoren, she claims the Queen is looking for her... And Yoren does send her ahead, "just in case"
   
5. When Lorch attacks the village near the God's Eye, she screams "Winterfell" in battle.
   
6. When Jaqen reaches Harrenhal, she's not masquerading as a boy anymore (if somehow, Jaqen couldn't have guessed faster than Gendry did)
   
7. It's known among the Lannisters that Arya escaped... In fact the Lannister are looking for her, and Jaqen traveled with Lannister troops.
   
8. She used "Arry" as name
   
9. She prays to a weirwood telling the gods they should have saved "him", a guy who prayed to them "all the time"
   

So, Jaqen knows she's a noble kid, who is hunted by the Queen, who screams "winterfell" in battle, and who is a girl... How many noble girls are from Winterfell and hunted by the Lannisters, around?