Syrio Forel = Jaqen H'ghar?

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

People who believe this think all Bravosi have the same philosophy as the FM. The FM seem to live in the shadows and are feared in Bravos. They certainly don't represent the mainstream. Syrio's entire belief system is opposed to the FM's. It's like saying how do we know Ned didn't go about murdering people in the north & frequenting brothels. Because it would be impossible for his character to do that, it would be impossible for Syrio to be a FM. The bare facts is Arya is a member of a sect whos beliefs and actions are the complete opposite to anything Syrio held high.

[Spjuth]

First of all, I don't see anything in this sentence that says that the three guys where released BEFORE Lord Eddard went down to the dungeon.

" 'Before your lordship's little brother was sent down, we had Grand Maester Pycelle for a time, and after him Lord Stark the traitor. There where were three others, common men, but Lord Stark gave them to the Night's Watch. I did not think it good to free those three, but the papers were in proper order. I made a note of that in the report as well, you may be certain of it.' "

The first three is lined up in chronological order, whereas he simply says the other three where there. Before or During the same time. Maybe Mr Longwater does intentionally makes it look as is they where released before Lord Stark got down, to not get any blame. I also interpret the sentence as if he did not think it good to free them because Lord Eddard was in the dungeon himself.

Jaqen, is definitely Syrio. And there is no way Syrio is alive if he's Jaqen.

It's not because I really want him to be alive, I don't. It's because of the way the are described. Martin is a master of writing characters, Even when they are from the same place he make way to write them different. Have you tried to read the PoW without knowing whose chapter it is? You can tell only from the way the text is written. When Syrio and Jaqen are described, they seem VERY similar. Not only to the reader, but also to the only one who know them both:

" 'A man does not choose his companions in the black cells,' the handsome one with the red-and-white hair said. Something about the way he talked reminded her of Syrio [...] 'You are called Arry, is that not so?' "

I think it is obvious that here that he recognises her. And she is that close to recognise him too, with or without super stealth.

He reaches out to her in a way he does not do to any of the other in the party. And she feels a certain affection to him aswell.

Why would he offer her to join up with him, when they're leaving, if he did not know her better?

I think you're also quite blind to what the FM is about. They're not simply assassins. They spent a lot of time observing their target, see the way Arya is made to report to the godly man every not and then. They are also obviously recruiting new people now and then. Jaqen is trying to recruit Arya, what if that was what Syrio tried as well, at the same time as he was observing the court, for whatever the reason.

So well, yes I think, Ser Merryn arrested Syrio, bringing him down to the cells. There he swaps face, making the two other prisoners scarred as hell. And well, obviously he is not really the fencing master, who is dead. And yes it's Jaqen who is now Pate, they are described in the exact same way. So whoever might have killed Balon, is unknown.

[Lummel]

First of all, I don't see anything in this sentence that says that the three guys where released BEFORE Lord Eddard went down to the dungeon...

Once The Ned has been arrested his orders are no longer going to be valid. No one is going to obey the instructions of a criminal arrested for attempted rebellion! Therefore we can be obsolutely certain that the black cells three were released before the coup began.

[Summerqueen]

I have no reason to believe Syrio was anything other than what he presented. Because there is no reason for a FM to be the dance master of a little girl until he can sneak into the dungeons and be conscripted into the NW, all to head to the Wall convincingly? That's some really convoluted deep cover story... So, why is a FM in KL? why is he teaching Arya?

We know Robert left emissaries from other nations cooling their heals to talk to him sometimes for years. It seems clear to me that Syrio was some sort of Braavosi emissary who put his matter to the new Hand, and while cooling his heals waiting for an answer from Robert, decided to take on the job of teaching Arya.

Wow. A motive for Syrio to be in KL rather than some place he is supposed to have been going on a very scenic route. I don't understand why a FM aiming for the Wall would go to such pains to get mixed up in matters in KL. You can just volunteer for the Watch. That needs to be explained to me. Why start in KL? Why not take your boat over to a Northron port? Have people seen the map? That's one long journey. Makes no sense.

[Errant Bard]

Wow. A motive for Syrio to be in KL rather than some place he is supposed to have been going on a very scenic route.

Oh, if you want motive, there are many that can be thought of.

For example, a parallel: Sandor Clegane is one of the best swordsman around. Sandor Clegane gets recruited as the personal bodyguard of the King of a whole continent. BUT. One day Sandor Clegane leaves that post. What does Sandor Clegane decide to do? He decides to take service somewhere else, for another king. Now if you remove the need to fight Gregor, add age creeping on, how Italian weaponmasters acted back in real history, and the fact Sealords of Braavos change regularly, you have plenty of reasons for a man to not stay in Braavos. (not to mention that the weather is totally lousy in Braavos. As Arya tells us, when it's not raining, there's fog.)

[Summerqueen]

A reason for a FM to be in KL...

Edit:

I just gave a reason for Syrio to be there, you'll notice.

[Errant Bard]

Well, I was just mentioning possible alternate reasons for Syrio to be there.

As for Jaqen? There's a reason, but it's certain that making Syrio him makes any tentative explanation just that more convoluted, instead of clarifying anything.

[RedPanda]

well, the only, so far, possible way for Syrio to be Jaqen is that Meryn was beaten and ran away. Syrio seeing Yoren able to go out without questions from the guards took over Jaqen (the real one from the black cells) which is why Rorge and Biter was very afraid of him.

this could be because they saw the whole thing and realize its an FM. which is why Jaqen is really kind towards Arya for no reason the whole journey in COK.

but that's just a theory, but i'm good with Syrio either dead or fleeing

[bemused]

Here's how I see it..

It would be reasonable to assume that KL would be a prime location for an FM intelligence agent to be in place, at least observing the situation ( The great debt, the sudden death of the hand and the need for a new one , possible knowledge of some connection and plotting between Varys and Illyrio ) So..I won't lay it out too fully since it would be so long, but ...

How could Syrio become Jaqen

1. An FM is in KL, under cover, gathering intel. When he learns Ned wants a sword master he presents himself as Syrio ( after maybe even reccommending himself to Ned or one of his men ) ... at first in order to find out more about Ned and how the KL situation might change with him as Hand . The FM knows he must be in Oldtown by some certain time ... for any number of reasons... ( at this juncture, I don't think the dragons have been hatched )

2. When Ned quits over Robert's decision to have Dany killed , Syrio agrees to accompany Ned & family to WF, on a temporary basis ( still having some time before he has to be in Oldtown for his next assignment ) , to see what Ned and the North will do next.. He's developed a liking for Arya in the meantime ( In spite of his calling , he is human .)

3. He doesn't die , is not arrested , but escapes after besting Trant , probably reverting to his original appearance as soon as he's out the door ( which he may have been doing all along , between lessons ) During Ned's imprisonment , he can have been keeping an eye on Arya, not revealing himself as Syrio, to her to help maintain her cover( If Barristan can do this a FM surely could ). He could easily have seen Yoren rescue Arya., but..

4. Since Ned is dead ,and since he has time to spare ,and since he likes Arya, he decides to follow along, "escort" her for as long as he can, just to be sure she'll be OK. He becomes one of Yoren's random recruits . (We know their backgrounds are not checked too closely . ..and except for the 3 in the cage, they're easily accessible.)

5. He observes Arya's interaction with Jaqen, and that, apart from Gendry and the boys and Yoren, she otherwise keeps pretty much to herself.

6. Jaqen does not survive the fire. Rorge may help Biter escape but I don't think they'd bother to help Jaqen, who's not really their associate. ( Thanks to elena targaryen digging up official background on R&B , my previous suspicion in this regard is even stronger. It also explains why Rorge fears Jaquen in Harrenhall , when he didn't previously )..so he takes up the Jaqen persona which allows him to escape the fate of the other recruits , and who better to try to trace Arya and ascertain whether she survived or was taken captive , than one of Lorch's men. .. If he should find her, she might be disposed to trust him more than a complete stranger.

7. R&B's fear stems from the fact that they left him for certain death, yet here he is ,unscathed without so much as singed hair.There was perhaps less than a minute , and probably not more, between the time Arya threw the axe and the collapse of the barn. The prisoners were not just manacled, but manacled to the floor of the cart.... ( I can post a more lengthy analysis of the fire, if you like )

8. When he goes to Arya to offer the lives, the kiss on the hair seeems so tender , almost parental , maybe too much so to suggest just any old FM, but not too much for Syrio.

9.During the Weasel soup scene, Jaqen displays some pretty formidable swordplay , in line with the skills Syrio would have needed.

10. He goes beyond just fulfilling the debt , to continue to teach her, and to offer to take her with him. ( surely not common for an FM ? ) he says "If you would find me again " as opposed to just "if you would learn " , implying more than your standard recruitment.

11. He gives her the coin , which may be his only route to Braavos before Oldtown ( if, in fact, time would have allowed his return ) .He leaves Harrenhall and enters Oldtown with his "own" or "fallback" appearance . We don't know his original appearance or persona in KL..( I just wonder if Harwin ever saw the man who recommended Syrio ?)

How do other characters support this scenario

1. Would Meryn Trant ,and any other survivors of the melee with Syrio lie ? Oh, I think so.. but did he ? Very likely , since Cersei says they had Arya , but , "the wretched dancing master interfered ". Dancing master. No mention that he was actually a sword master and put up a fight, and was killed or arrested.( Not info Cersei was likely to hold back, since being thwarted by a dancing master makes her look bad too.)

2. Yoren probably collected the 3 men from the black cells before Ned's arrest , since the old gaoler tells Jaime the papers were in order. Probably nothing with Ned's signature would he honoured after his arrest. Though Yoren had them secured , they were visible in the cage...not too easy to pick locks , dispose of a body and lock oneself back in.

3 . Rorge's fear.

4. When the Kindly Man says "I know no one by that name " , in regard to Jaqen H'gar ,he may be being honest , not just secretive.

[Br4nFl4k3s]

Though I believe Syrio is dead, I genuinely hope we discover more about his past later on (maybe if Arya pursued Bravo dancing any further?) and, also, it wouldn't surprise me if he himself was the REASON Jaqen was in the black cells to begin with.

[littlebirdy]

We don't see Syrio die, so could it be possible he knocked Ser Meryn out and then changed his face in order to escape? Maybe he was apprehended as Jaqen when he was trying to escape?

[Lummel]

That is backwards arguing Littlebirdy.

You are saying that because Jaqen was a faceless man and can, apparently, change face at will that it is possible for him to have in fact been Syrio.

Problem is though it doesn't make any sense. There's no hint that Syrio was a faceless man, rather the opposite - he has a long standing back story and unlike Jaqen has no drive to go to Oldtown.

Jaqen we know is heading to Oldtown but Syrio was planning on going to Winterfell to train Ayra. That wouldn't have been an engagement of a few weeks or months but years (or until Arya got bored and decided to take up falconry instead). There's no overlap there at all between Syrio's objectives (obtain a reasonable living in retirement) and Jaqen's (got to Oldtown, go directly to oldtown, do not pass go).

[FittleLinger]

That is backwards arguing Littlebirdy.

You are saying that because Jaqen was a faceless man and can, apparently, change face at will that it is possible for him to have in fact been Syrio.

Problem is though it doesn't make any sense. There's no hint that Syrio was a faceless man, rather the opposite - he has a long standing back story and unlike Jaqen has no drive to go to Oldtown.

Jaqen we know is heading to Oldtown but Syrio was planning on going to Winterfell to train Ayra. That wouldn't have been an engagement of a few weeks or months but years (or until Arya got bored and decided to take up falconry instead). There's no overlap there at all between Syrio's objectives (obtain a reasonable living in retirement) and Jaqen's (got to Oldtown, go directly to oldtown, do not pass go).

Lummel, those assumptions (Syrio = Jaqen) are based on a few things:

1) They are both cool

2) People don't want Syrio dead

3) They are both from Braavos

4) They both have interactions with Arya

5) Jaqen can change his face

And although I somehow understand the motivations behind the theory, it seems childish to me. Not trying to offend anyone. I am a firm supporter of Syrio is NOT Jaqen. It's wishful thinking, really. It has huuuuuge holes.

[Corpsegoddess]

However, it's only now that I realize (and please forgive me if everyone else has already figured this out) that Syrio simply could have changed after coming into Yoren's possession. This explanation works for me for a few reasons: 1) it's plausible that it would have gone unnoticed by Yoren, who may simply have been given the cage with the prisoners already in it, without taking note of their appearance; 2) it explains why Syrio changed his face: he saw Arya, and decided it was best that she not recognize him; 3) it explains why Rorge and Biter are so afraid of him: they actually saw him change his face, and thus know how dangerous he is.

So yeah, the Syrio/Jaqen theory actually strikes me as plausible now. Not necessarily likely, but plausible.

Just wondering, and I've only recently read this mentioned, but...

Couldn't Syrio/Jaqen have bested Meryn--say, knocked him out--gotten away, changed his face at that point, and *then* gotten himself into the black cells then or later on? With all the chaos in the city at that time, you'd figure he'd be able to get away from the Stark wing of the castle--especially if he'd already changed his face. And presumably he knew ways to get around King's Landing that may not have been common knowledge.

Also, whatever he did to get himself into the black cells always seemed to be the explanation, to me, of why Biter was so afraid of him. I don't think Jaqen would have shown his best and most useful trick to somebody like Biter, who would just as soon sell him as kill him or eat him, if he thought it would profit him any.

Also, seeing as how Arya was working on developing different identities when she was training with The Faceless (the dockworking girl, etc.), isn't it possible that Syrio, First Sword of Braavos was indeed Jaquen and simply an identity in which he had invested a lot of time and effort? I don't remember The Faceless having to be *anonymous* people, necessarily--or am I wrong? I most certainly could be--my brain is dark and full of errors. =P

[Lummel]

Just wondering, and I've only recently read this mentioned, but...

Couldn't Syrio/Jaqen have bested Meryn--say, knocked him out--gotten away, changed his face at that point, and *then* gotten himself into the black cells then or later on? With all the chaos in the city at that time, you'd figure he'd be able to get away from the Stark wing of the castle--especially if he'd already changed his face. And presumably he knew ways to get around King's Landing that may not have been common knowledge...

Jaqen and his two companions had already been released from the black cells before Trant was sent to seize Arya and interrupted the lesson Syrio was giving.

But why would anybody want to smuggle themselves into the high security black cells or into a party of people heading to the Wall when they actually wanted to go to Oldtown?

[King Jonboy]

If syrio is alive, i just think he is the kindly man teaching arya, then after he thinks she has enough training, he tells her and together they head to westeros!!

[FittleLinger]

Jaqen and his two companions had already been released from the black cells before Trant was sent to seize Arya and interrupted the lesson Syrio was giving.

But why would anybody want to smuggle themselves into the high security black cells or into a party of people heading to the Wall when they actually wanted to go to Oldtown?

Not only this. Even if they wanted to go to the Wall (which I don't believe), they could have just gone there, present themselves as someone who has nothing to lose and wants to start a new life, and get on with it. Why smuggle into the filthiest of prisons, not even knowing whether you will be released or executed?

[Corpsegoddess]

Jaqen and his two companions had already been released from the black cells before Trant was sent to seize Arya and interrupted the lesson Syrio was giving.

But why would anybody want to smuggle themselves into the high security black cells or into a party of people heading to the Wall when they actually wanted to go to Oldtown?

Because, having met Arya, he decided to postpone Oldtown for the time being? Perhaps he got himself into the Black Cells knowing her father was down there. Just a thought.

At the end of the day, I know it's all conjecture; fun conjecture, but nothing more than that. That being said, I also do realise that Syrio was a wonderful character--first in the books, and then (at least for me), amazingly brought to life in the TV series--and I really don't want to let him go.

And *THAT* being said--yes, I'm a stickler for certain things. I'm also part of the Supernatural fandom, and when an angel dies in the series, we always see a shot of the dead angel with "shadow" wings around them. So, there's a saying for the SPN fandom--"Wings Or It Didn't Happen". And in this case, I'm going with some kind of definite--"Raven Or It Didn't Happen", "GRRM Confirmation Or It Didn't Happen", "Scary Syrio Back From The Dead So I Guess It Happened But At Least He's Sort Of Back So Yay"--well, you get the idea. ;)

[Lummel]

Ned and Jaqen's time in the black cells doesn't over lap. Jaqen is in the Black cells and released over to Yoren before Ned is arrested.

If you want to believe that Syrio, somehow and in some way survived and lives, fine, that's your own business. But for him to be Jaqen you have to imagine extremely convoluted scenarios that require amazing levels of foresight and overall knowledge to make it possible. And then you have to make up special explanations for this to be a reasonable course of action - because if he has got such wizard powers then why not save Arya and Ned and Sansa too from all the troubles they go through?

And what ever scenarios are devised they invariably conflict with what we know about the real Jaqen - that he has a mission that requires him to be in Oldtown, in the Citadel.

You know Syrio gets maybe three pages in AGOT. It's not the story of Syrio and his amazing adventures. :)

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

I find it would be really stupid for syrio to be jaqen. Cause jaqen was already chosen to go to the wall from the black cells by the time we see syrio's final fight with the kingsgaurd. Is it possible..yes its a stretch but its possible. Just to me it makes no sense. Syrio was a water dancer. Why would a faceless man pretend to be a water dancer in order to teach a little girl to water dance. It seems like a waste of their time. Which is extremely exspensive. Sure you could make up a bunch of theories on how he was trying to assasinate arya or lord eddard. But it just doesn't go with the flow of the story. The syrio chapters are very important in shaping arya to walk her path to braavos. I don't think syrio being a faceless man fits into that. It just seems like more lost hope for people to bring back the characters we have lost. Too many returning characters is just annoying. George knows he can't do it with everyone.