Who will be Cersei's "valonqar"?

[Talleyrand]

It will be Erryk or Arryk whichever one is the yougnest. Call it a hunch but i've never trusted two people who look the same

[RWHamel]

Stannis!

[RWHamel]

OK, actually I think there are three possibilities.

1. Sandor Clegane, Gregor's younger brother, who will defeat Frankengregor during trial by combat. This metaphorically satisfies the prophecy. Also Sandor is considered a "Brother" to the church, so brother x2.

2. Stannis, Robert's younger brother, who will strangle Cersei after he is turned into a walking corpse by the Others.

3. Arya, who is a valonqar, because that's what the Faceless Men call their assassins.

I think it could be 1 and 2, or 1 and 3.

[iheartseverus]

[tinfoil] Okay, the prophecy brings to mind the Wicked Queen in the Snow White fairy tale who looks into the mirror and asks 'Mirror, mirror on the wall, who is the fairest one of all?' And every day, the mirror answers 'You are.' But, one day, it doesn't. It answers 'Snow White is the fairest one of all.'

Ergo, Dany with the snow white hair is the younger, more beautiful queen mentioned in the prophecy. [/tinfoil]

:smoking:

On a more realistic note, what about Tommen as the valonqar? He dies doing something that ultimately causes Cersei's death, as well.

[Drowned Princess]

I say Arya ("little sister") and the more beautiful queen as Sansa. Not sure how yet, but just cos.

Queen in the North!!

[Myrish swan]

My reasoning for thinking it's going to be Jaime is that to me it seems important for Cersei's character development in the story that she misunderstood the prophecy and persecuted Tyrion unjustly and indeed unnecessarily, and in fact put all her faith in the one preordained to destroy her.

Yup. '"By believing it, she made it true." Never heard that one before! :rolleyes:

Honestly, it does not seem to me Tyrion ever "persecuted unjustly." In fact, Tyrion is one of the few people whom Cersei (or so she honestly believes) has good reason to mistreat. She believes he killed her son; she has every reason to want him dead.

As for Cersei persecuting Tyrion earlier than that, I don't think so. From everything we know, she merely ignores him, and looks at him with great distaste. Compared to the abuse he suffers at Tywin's hands, Cersei's mistreatment of Tyrion is almost nothing. Contrary to Tyrion's beliefs, I don't think Cersei has wronged him in any way.

As to what Jaime's motives will be if he does the deed, I think more things are going to happen before we get there. I don't see him killing her for jealousy alone

Well, as of AFFC, he is willing to abandon her to death out of sexual jealousy alone, so I don't think its that huge of a leap.

It kind of pulls the rug out from under you when the best thing you ever did was to break your vows and kill the king you'd sworn to protect,

Indeed it does, but Cersei can't be held responsible for that. That's on Jaime. The fact that he chose to become basically amoral following the Aery's thing was his choice. And he alone chose to do several horrible things in the years that followed. Cersei never "made" him do anything.

I see no reason why he couldn't have been sleeping with Cersei, but still tried to do the right thing. I don't see how he could have flatly refused to do horrible things for Cersei (like cutting off Arya's hand), and actually encouraged her to see reason and do the right thing herself. I know, I know, Cersei is evil and never would have done the right thing ever, blah, blah, blah. However, my point is that even if he were in love with and sleeping with Cersei, Jaime did not necessarily have to be evil because of this. He could have done his best to be moral in general, and struggled to bring out the good in Cersei; rather than not caring about anything, and mindlessly doing anything Cersei wanted in exchange for sex.

Honestly, I have an issue with the way the whole Cersei/ Jaime relationship was resolved in AFFC for several reasons. First, GRRM seems to believe that there is no way that Jaime can be "good" (or even morally ambiguous) while in a relationship with Cersei. Its as though he feels that Cersei's private parts are the path to all evil. (And yes, i do realize that Jaime did some horrible things to cover up their relationship, however, Cersei never made him to these things.) In order to be good, it is implied, Jaime has to downright hate Cersei, see her as pure evil, and reject her in every sense. And though many have objected that Jaime hating Cersei is morally "good" since Cersei is "bad", I honestly believe that the concept that Jaime has to hate Cersei to be good is indicative of a very simplistic code of morality that this series generally claims to eschew.

Secondly, the way that Jaime rejects Cersei, and the things he says to Ilyn Payne after doing so, make it look as though poor, clueless Jaime was haplessly forced into doing horrible deeds by the power of Cersei's sexual hold over him. He tells Payne that Cersei slept with him, then told him to kill Arya Stark; and that thanks to Cersei, he would have killed or maimed Arya had he found her.

I'd say its stretching it to hold Cersei solely responsible for Jaime's decision; though the evil action started with her, he's still an adult, and always had a choice.

As to what Jaime's motives will be if he does the deed, I think more things are going to happen before we get there. I don't see him killing her for jealousy alone, even though her lack of faithfulness and declaration that's she's lied to him "a thousand times" pretty much starts to take apart much of what he had built his life around up to that point. It kind of pulls the rug out from under you when the best thing you ever did was to break your vows and kill the king you'd sworn to protect, making you a pariah, then your one talent is taken from you, and then the person you've loved all your life and been unquestioningly faithful to tells you she's faithless.

Besides sleeping with some other guys out of practical necessity and political aspiration, I don't get how Cersei has been "faithless" to Jaime. I got every indication that she never really wanted to sleep with the other guys, but she felt it was the best way to achieve her ends. Is sexual fidelity really that huge of a deal? Also, though Jaime decides that everything Cersei has ever told him was a lie and that all those years, she's been hiding her true face away from him, etc., I don't really feel there's much textual support for this notion. Cersei's never really bothered to hide her true nature from Jaime at all; the fact that Jaime suddenly believes "he'd never really known her, etc.", and goes from love to hatred in two seconds flat is one of the worst plot contriviances in a book riddled with them.

[Nausicaä]

I say Arya ("little sister") and the more beautiful queen as Sansa. Not sure how yet, but just cos.

Queen in the North!!

I want the younger queen to be Sansa too. She and Margaery make most sense as candidates to me, because the prophecy says the younger queen will take everything Cersei holds dear from her and they were both involved in Joffrey's murder, while Dany, Myrcella, Jeyne, etc. were not. Margaery also "took" Tommen, while (in my opinion) Sansa might have a shot at "taking" Jaime to her side, as a member of her Queensguard or an advisor. Cersei might not love him as she once did anymore, but she loved him almost her whole life, so I think he should count as a part of what she holds dear, along with their children.

[Phantomwriter05]

I'm going to take the more unpopular route.

I'll say that their isn't going to be a killing.

I think that Cersei isn't going to die ...

I believe that the prophecy is most likely one of those things where you try so hard to avoid it that you end up making it happen.

but I just don't see it coming true.

Maybe that's just me wanting a careful what you wish for ending for Jaime and Cersei.

Where Jamie is lord of the Rock and Cersei is his wife, but Cersei is "Touched"

Just me ...

[Hirgon]

It could be the Hound.

Thoros of Myr saw it in the flames, which was why Beric Dondarrion allowed him trial by combat rather then just hanging him.

[Bishop437]

Honestly, it does not seem to me Tyrion ever "persecuted unjustly." In fact, Tyrion is one of the few people whom Cersei (or so she honestly believes) has good reason to mistreat. She believes he killed her son; she has every reason to want him dead.

As for Cersei persecuting Tyrion earlier than that, I don't think so. From everything we know, she merely ignores him, and looks at him with great distaste. Compared to the abuse he suffers at Tywin's hands, Cersei's mistreatment of Tyrion is almost nothing. Contrary to Tyrion's beliefs, I don't think Cersei has wronged him in any way.

Are we reading the same book? She has hated him since he was born. She has stated that he was to blame for her mother dying. And remember the comment that the Red Viper told about how she twisted his cock until he screamed? If you concider that normal sisterly behavior I'm glad we aren't related. I don't think she has said a single thing about him that wasn't at best an insult.

Indeed it does, but Cersei can't be held responsible for that. That's on Jaime. The fact that he chose to become basically amoral following the Aery's thing was his choice. And he alone chose to do several horrible things in the years that followed. Cersei never "made" him do anything.

I see no reason why he couldn't have been sleeping with Cersei, but still tried to do the right thing. I don't see how he could have flatly refused to do horrible things for Cersei (like cutting off Arya's hand), and actually encouraged her to see reason and do the right thing herself. I know, I know, Cersei is evil and never would have done the right thing ever, blah, blah, blah. However, my point is that even if he were in love with and sleeping with Cersei, Jaime did not necessarily have to be evil because of this. He could have done his best to be moral in general, and struggled to bring out the good in Cersei; rather than not caring about anything, and mindlessly doing anything Cersei wanted in exchange for sex.

Honestly, I have an issue with the way the whole Cersei/ Jaime relationship was resolved in AFFC for several reasons. First, GRRM seems to believe that there is no way that Jaime can be "good" (or even morally ambiguous) while in a relationship with Cersei. Its as though he feels that Cersei's private parts are the path to all evil. (And yes, i do realize that Jaime did some horrible things to cover up their relationship, however, Cersei never made him to these things.) In order to be good, it is implied, Jaime has to downright hate Cersei, see her as pure evil, and reject her in every sense. And though many have objected that Jaime hating Cersei is morally "good" since Cersei is "bad", I honestly believe that the concept that Jaime has to hate Cersei to be good is indicative of a very simplistic code of morality that this series generally claims to eschew.

I would agree that Jamie alone is responsible for Jamie's actions. But I would not go as so far to say that Either of them are "good " or "evil". And how would you know what GRRM belives about any of his charecters. Thats up to us as readers to interpret. I think that Jamie dosen't give a shit about what anyone thinks about him or his relationship with his sister. He has been consistant in that from the start. Cersie has been the one to fear the repurcussions of their relationship. ( as well she should... They are not Targaryans )

Secondly, the way that Jaime rejects Cersei, and the things he says to Ilyn Payne after doing so, make it look as though poor, clueless Jaime was haplessly forced into doing horrible deeds by the power of Cersei's sexual hold over him. He tells Payne that Cersei slept with him, then told him to kill Arya Stark; and that thanks to Cersei, he would have killed or maimed Arya had he found her.

I'd say its stretching it to hold Cersei solely responsible for Jaime's decision; though the evil action started with her, he's still an adult, and always had a choice.

Besides sleeping with some other guys out of practical necessity and political aspiration, I don't get how Cersei has been "faithless" to Jaime. I got every indication that she never really wanted to sleep with the other guys, but she felt it was the best way to achieve her ends. Is sexual fidelity really that huge of a deal? Also, though Jaime decides that everything Cersei has ever told him was a lie and that all those years, she's been hiding her true face away from him, etc., I don't really feel there's much textual support for this notion. Cersei's never really bothered to hide her true nature from Jaime at all; the fact that Jaime suddenly believes "he'd never really known her, etc.", and goes from love to hatred in two seconds flat is one of the worst plot contriviances in a book riddled with them.

Where like I said before Jamie is responsible for his actions..... But..... He is in Love with Cersie. She is clearly ( despite what she says to Ned in the Godswood ) not in Love with Jamie. She has used her power over him where ever she could. She didn't really have a problem with Jamie trying to kill Bran. She was only really upset that he didn't succeed. Sure she said she could have scared him to silence but that was after the fact.

And if you don't think that sleeping with other men for what ever reason was a betrayal then I wish you lots of happiness in your life. I hope you like being alone. Sexual fidelity is indeed a huge deal. Even if the person your in love with is your sister. I think that there is plenty of textual evidence from the POV's that can actually give insight to what Jamie and Cersie are actually thinking. Namely the chapters that start with the names Jamie and Cersie. She definetly kept every relationship other than Robert from him. If she hadn't Lancel would have been a very dead squire. Again have you read this book? Jamie starts having doubts about Cersie almost as soon as he comes back to kingslanding without the hand he left with. at least 2 or 3 months pass before he gets the raven from Qyburn. And thats making the assumption that he is going to do nothing about Cersie predicament with isn't really clear yet. Just because he burned the letter? I think not.

Oh and as far as the OP is concerned Jamie is definetly the Valonqar. Any other canidate doesn't make any real sense

[Myrish swan]

Where like I said before Jamie is responsible for his actions..... But..... He is in Love with Cersie.

No buts about it. He is either responsible for his actions or he’s not.

Secondly, if we’re to believe AFFC, Jaime never really loved Cersei. As he himself claims, he never even knew her. What he loved was a fantasy, and idea in his own mind. (He also loved Cersei’s body and having sex with her, but I hardly think he deserves much credit for that.)

And before you object that it was not Jaime’s fault he never truly knew Cersei, that she hid her true nature, etc., that’s not the case. Cersei showed every bit how despicable she was to Jaime on numerous occasions. For instance, take the scene that Jaime himself mentions as an example to Ilyn Payne, where Cersei sleeps with Jaime, then asks him to maim Arya stark in return for that service. Now, after this, how could Jaime possibly not realize that A. Cersei is a horrible, evil person and that b. she is clearly using him? My point is not that Cersei wasn’t using Jaime, my point was that Jaime was aware of Cersei’s cruelty, and was A-Okay with it, so long as she didn’t sleep with other guys. And yeah, cheating on one’s significant other is hardly okay behavior, however, it is far, far less evil than having little girls maimed, for crying out loud.

So… yeah. As Jaime himself says so scornfully of Robert, “Robert did what he did for pride, a cunt, and a pretty face.” I’d say that Jaime did what he did not for real love, but for pride, a cunt, a pretty face, and a made- up fantasy beloved that clearly corresponded in no way with Cersei’s actual character.

Where like I said before Jamie is responsible for his actions..... But..... He is in Love with Cersie. She is clearly ( despite what she says to Ned in the Godswood ) not in Love with Jamie. She has used her power over him where ever she could.

Yeah, so? I’m not denying that Cersei is evil. However, in the end, Jaime chose to do evil things, and is every bit as responsible for his behavior as his sister. He may have loved her, but still chosen to do the right thing regardless. He is an adult. His choices cannot be put at her door, any more than her choices can be put at his.

Also, as Jaime admits, he did not really love Cersei herself so much as the idea of her. Or, if he really did love Cersei himself, said love was so hollow and fragile that it could be changed to utter hatred and scorn upon the revelation that Cersei had slept with some other guys. Don’t get me wrong, it would be fine for Jaime to break up with Cersei/ resent her deeply for cheating on him. However, his apparent willingness to abandon Cersei to death after finding out that she was unfaithful to him speaks of a love that was never really more than superficial and hollow.

Also, though the fact that Cersei used Jaime and other men to get what she wanted, that alone does not make her evil. The fact that she did so was clearly wrong, however, it can in no way be compared to the vileness of throwing a little boy out a window or maiming a little girl. And as for the fact that Cersei does not love Jaime and is only using him, I’d again say that that in and of itself does not automatically make Cersei evil. Cersei is evil because she does horrible things, and feels no remorse for them. Even if she did truly love Jaime, she’d still be just as evil as if she didn’t. Also: I think she does love Jaime, however, I do agree that she was clearly using him. And she loves power more than him, of course.

. She didn't really have a problem with Jamie trying to kill Bran. She was only really upset that he didn't succeed. Sure she said she could have scared him to silence but that was after the fact.

This is pure opinion, not based AT ALL in textual evidence. There is every indication that Cersei wanted to deal with Bran by scaring him into staying quiet. And in AFFC, she actually thinks that Jaime throwing Bran was stupid, and that she wishes that he wouldn’t have done that. I could at this point question whether you’ve read the books (as you’ve done for me) however, I’m not going to insult you like that.

And if you don't think that sleeping with other men for what ever reason was a betrayal then I wish you lots of happiness in your life. I hope you like being alone. Sexual fidelity is indeed a huge deal. Even if the person your in love with is your sister.

Well, of course it is. However, cheating, while clearly immoral, is not in any respect on the same level morally as, say, maiming little girls. Jaime was aware that Cersei wanted to have a little girl maimed; yet he still loved her despite this fact. However, upon finding out that Cersei had banged some other guys, his sympathy was entirely lost. He went from loving Cersei to despising her in an instant. Honestly, Jaime has every right to be mad and “break up” with Cersei or whatever, however, the claim that she’d hid her true character from him is total B.S. Also, one has to wonder at his moral standards if he’s willing to overlook the maiming and torture of children, but cheating is a deal breaker.

I think that there is plenty of textual evidence from the POV's that can actually give insight to what Jamie and Cersie are actually thinking. Namely the chapters that start with the names Jamie and Cersie.

Yeah, I’m not sure how I denied that…?

[SingleMort]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to see Sansa as Queen in The North. I'm pretty sure The North's bid for indepence is over. Not that I don't think the Stark banners will rise again.

I could see Arya killing Cersei maybe, but I don't think she'd be top of her hit list.

I think the younger Queen is definately Margaery or Dany. I can't see yet another Queen coming power. Otherwise I shall suspect that the wholee war is just some conspiracy for women-kind to rid themselves of their male oppresors :rolleyes:

[smidget25]

I've always thought that it was Margaery who was the younger and more beautiful one, who would take everything Cersei holds dear. The death of Joffrey and Margaery's marriage to Tommen seemed like the beginning of the end of Cersei to me, but maybe Margaery would be too obvious a choice.

As for the valonqar I assumed that it meant A little brother, rather than her little brother. That could be pretty much anyone, but for the connection to Margaery I've been thinking maybe Loras? Dying to protect his sister, if he's not as injured as A Feast for Crows has us believe?

But if it does refer to her brother, then Jaime would make a lot of sense. Their relationship has deteriorated over the course of the series, and for her to be killed by someone she genuinely loved would have a little bit of poetic justice in it, I think. Either way, I am very much looking forward to seeing her become unstuck at last.

[starki]

We will see. Could be Jaime, could be Tyrion.

The young queen ? Well, I think of Daenerys, not Margaery.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

The young queen will probably be Dany, because Cersei doesn't even think she will come back to Westeros and Maegery is right beneath her nose.

The valonqar? Probably Jaime because I think 'Maggy's' prophecy concerns Cersei's immediate family and Cersei is seeing half-nosed dwarfs everywhere, so I think she will push Jaime too far and in a burst of anger he strikes her and she falls down a flight of stairs or something. An accident.

[iheartseverus]

I read an interesting theory over at the TWoP nOObs site. A member there posited that if, as many people now think, Sandor Clegane is the silent gravedigger and has become a religious figure, then Sandor could well be the valonqar. He mentioned that the senior monk that Sandor/Gravedigger works for is called 'Elder Brother,' so its possible all the other monks there are called 'Younger Brother.' Its also ironic that Cersei herself reinstated the law that allows for King's Landing to have a religious-warrior army (forgot what they're called). Should Sandor Clegane end up as a religious warrior in that sect, he'd be a formidable force to deal with and might well end up as Cersei's valonqar.

Interesting theory...

[king biters chamber pot]

cersei is allowed to join the nights watch, where she is killed by one of her one of her crow brothers.

[Northern Lady]

Hi, I'm new here and not sure anyone has asked this question before.

Who will be the "valonqar" to take Cersei's life? Valonqar in High Valyrian means little brother. Cersei has two. So which one will be?

I bet it's Jaime though.

Another question, who will be the little to take everything from Cersei?

It seems Margaery is also falling at the end of AFfC, so it's not likely to be her. Dany might be high possible. I would also like Sensa to take everything from Cersei but she is not a queen.

I'm thinking Jamie. But wouldn't it be spiffy if one of Tywins bastards did it? :P

[MrDoog]

Well the obvious candidates are Jaime and Tyrion but I think that's just it - it's too obvious. That Martin has given us this tidbit of knowledge that it'll likely be her immediate family, and should it prove to be the case, then those two people are the only feasible options. Nothing is ever obvious in this series.

So for that reason i'm going to guess Tommen.

[Crrr]

Wasn't there a caveat in the prophecy that if it was spoken about it wouldn't come true- that's part of why Cersei pushed her friend down the well.

However in AFfC Cersei openly talks about it in her bed with Taena (Or is this something I have misremembered?)