Monday Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Oh. Then I didn't recall correctly :dunno: Why on earth did Jeor join the NW? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 Oh. Then I didn't recall correctly :dunno: Why on earth did Jeor join the NW?I don't think the books explicitly explain why, so I always just assumed it was for the honor of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monday Posted May 28, 2011 Share Posted May 28, 2011 I don't think the books explicitly explain why, so I always just assumed it was for the honor of it.I think this deserves it's own thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Egg became Aegon V The Unlikely in 233 AL, according to a Wiki of Ice and Fire, when he was approximately 33 years old. That would put Duncan around 40 when becoming a Kingsguard member (well, he was probably made Lord Commander quickly), that's plenty of time to have children before his vows and honor prevent him from it. His link with Tarth, if it exists, is the real question here I think. Dunk would probably be Brienne's great grand-father or great-great grand-father, though I'm more leaning towards great grand-father. I realized that Duncan only died about 40 years before the events of GoT, when I though it was more like 90-100 years before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted May 29, 2011 Author Share Posted May 29, 2011 Egg became Aegon V The Unlikely in 233 AL, according to a Wiki of Ice and Fire, when he was approximately 33 years old. That would put Duncan around 40 when becoming a Kingsguard member (well, he was probably made Lord Commander quickly), that's plenty of time to have children before his vows and honor prevent him from it. His link with Tarth, if it exists, is the real question here I think. Dunk would probably be Brienne's great grand-father or great-great grand-father, though I'm more leaning towards great grand-father. I realized that Duncan only died about 40 years before the events of GoT, when I though it was more like 90-100 years before that.Yes, Ser Duncan died on the same day that Rhaegar was born. So there is a sort of synergy there. I agree, Dunk would have plenty of time to father a child. If GRRM has confirmed it, it must be so, because Dunk had no known family, being an orphan from King's Landing.I am leaning towards Tarth being a new house. The island itself is called Tarth, and Brienne is not named "Brienne Tarth", but "Brienne of Tarth".Lord Selwyn Tarth, The Evenstar, was born 246 AL, 13 years before The Tragedy at Summerhall (259 AL), which would make him about 57 years younger than Dunk. Assuming Dunk had no children during his Kingsguard service, that would make him a likely grandchild of Dunk's. It might be that Dunk was made Lord of Tarth for some service we have not yet seen, had a child with some woman/wife we have not seen, and then joined the Kingsguard around age 40, in support of his friend Egg.I was looking at the Tarth heraldry just now. "Yellow suns on rose quartered with white crescents on azure." I wonder if something can be gleaned from that. Sun is the symbol of Dorne. Tanselle too-tall was headed to Dorne, in The Hedge Knight. Moon has a vale-ish feel to it.House Arryn has a moon on it's arms, though the falcon is more prominent. House Royce of the gates of the moon supposedly has a crescent moon on their arms. Feels unrelated, however.Evenstar is Arwen's necklace is the Lord of the Rings movie (though not the book). Since GRRM is a fan of those movies, it may be an homage. In the movie, the necklace is given by Arwen to Aragorn as a symbol of their love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nausicaä Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 And anyway, if what someone posted above is true (that GRRM said we'd meet a descendant of Dunk's), then we know Dunk must have had a child/children. That said, though I've seen this factoid mentioned many times on this forum over the past few years, it may just be an unconfirmed rumor.Where/when did he say that?I googled it and found these SSM entries:January 07, 1999 Dunk’s Descendants [summary: ALANMAC asked if any of Dunk's descendants appear in _A Song of Ice and Fire_] Oh maybe November 08, 2000 Mysterious Galaxy Signing (San Diego, CA) I asked GRRM if we'd met one of Dunk's descendents in the SoIaF, and he said Yes. I didn't ask him who, because I'd rather find out by reading or reason, only I'm lousy at the reasoning part and want to make you guys do it for me.November 10, 2005 US Signing Tour (Dayton, OH) Asked if he'll ever tell which character is Dunk's descendent. Got a rather acerbic, "I gave a pretty strong hint in the new book," to which I sheepishly replied "Yea, but I read it real fast, in three days."" I told him I suspected Brienne but thought that she was too obvious and that he'd be more subtle than that and he said, "You think?" Coy bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Thanks for the references !The island of Tarth itself is sworn to House Baratheon, as it is located in Shipbreaker Bay, not far from Storm's End. I'm not sure how, or why Dunk would have been granted the lordship of Tarth though. I assume that Egg can't have been the one to do it, because I assume Dunk was named a member of his Kingsguard as soon as Egg received the crown, and the Kingsguard can't hold lands. So it's probably a gift from someone other than Egg, perhaps Maekar, to thank him for having protected his son ? At least Tarth isn't far from Summerhall, so it would make more sense to grant Dunk that island rather than some other place far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galen M Posted May 29, 2011 Share Posted May 29, 2011 Evenstar is Arwen's necklace is the Lord of the Rings movie (though not the book). Since GRRM is a fan of those movies, it may be an homage. In the movie, the necklace is given by Arwen to Aragorn as a symbol of their love.Fellowship was released in 2001, Selwyn the Evenstar was introduced in Clash (1999), so that doesn't work. However, in the LOTR books, Arwen is called the Evenstar, so that homage does work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptyx Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Where is it said that Dunk joined the KG immediately after Aegon's crowning?I suppose Aegon had to wait until one of the members died before he could appoint Dunk, so it could be a few years later, even 10 years later is not entirely unlikely IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Where is it said that Dunk joined the KG immediately after Aegon's crowning?I suppose Aegon had to wait until one of the members died before he could appoint Dunk, so it could be a few years later, even 10 years later is not entirely unlikely IMO.Just an assumption on my part since Dunk was already around 40 years old when Egg became Aegon V. I also thought that each new King had to choose a new Kinsguard for himself, but now that I'm think back on it, it does seem unlikely that New King = New Kingsguard since both Jaime and Barristan stayed in the KG after Robert took the Throne. So you're quite right, it's actually very possible that Dunk didn't join the KG immediately after Egg being crowned. It makes it all the more possible for Dunk to have children pre-KG then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted May 30, 2011 Author Share Posted May 30, 2011 So, I think we've established that:1. There is a descendant of Dunk in AsoIaF (confirmed by GRRM)2. Likely, Brienne is that descendant.3. 2) Implies that Dunk's offspring somehow either became house Tarth, or that they by relation, adoption or otherwise were included in house Tarth.4. There is a similarity to Dunk's and Brienne's story.What does this mean for Brienne's story? I think it is fairly safe to say that GRRM is not done with Brienne, that she will not be executed by the BwB. Will there be another connection to a Targaryen king? Brienne was already sniffing at such a connection when she became a member of Renly's kingsguard (Renly being a distant Targaryen).If so, she would never join forces with Stannis, having sworn to kill him. Daenerys? It would take some doing to bring Brienne and Dany together. Although since Brienne apparently will not be in ADWD, perhaps it is possible.Where does Brienne's story go from here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted May 30, 2011 Share Posted May 30, 2011 Brienne's POV not being present in ADWD makes me wonder whether she died or not at the end of Feast. It would seem to make her whole arc as a character quite pointless, or at least without resolution, so I can't see that happening, yet I don't see GRRM letting Brienne just hang for another full book, especially given that he ended her chapter in Feast with a cliffhanger (that sparked many theories). So it's possible that we'll see her through someone's POV (like Jaime), or at least that news of what happened to her. Or maybe she'll become UnBrienne (I really hope not). A Targaryen connection is possible, but I'm hoping for her to head North. It would in some ways parallel Dunk's story as well, since I think he went to the Wall at least once, and that would give her the opportunity to meet up with Jon, and Stannis of course. I like Stannis well enough, but I'm hoping for a Brienne-Stannis confrontation at some point if Brienne survives Feast (I hope Pod survives as well). And, if she met up with Jon, Brienne knowing Jon, and having Pod = Tyrion's squire as HER squire, it could help explain her going over to Dany (assuming Tyrion and Jon do end up having a role to play in Dany's story). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarl Snow Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 There are some clues that seem to indicate that Brienne has received a knighthood - joining Renly's Rainbow Guard the biggest among them, but smaller things as well, like Podrick Payne calling her "Ser" - but I personally don't think she is a properly anointed knight. For starters, I think that if she had been one, she wouldn't have felt so out of place among the rest of Renly's knights, her title would have been enough to show some of them that she was a capable fighter. Traditionally though, I don't think we've ever heard of women knights in Westeros before, and the general procedure to becoming a knight seems exclusively reserved for boys. According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire Page about knights, the traditional process to becoming a knight involves being a page and a squire first, and I don't think any knight or lord would have accepted a girl as a squire, even one as big and manly as Brienne, for fear of being ridiculed by his peers. Of course Brienne's deeds could have earned her a knighthood (like winning the melee at Bitterbridge), if she had been a man, but I don't think any Lord or Knight would have willingly knighted her, because it probably would have reflected poorly on them.I don't think there's confirmation on this, but I'm pretty sure that if she had been a "real" knight, it would have been enough of an oddity to be remarked upon at least once. So my belief is that Brienne does not have a knighthood.I found a reference just now. Page 201 in AFFC, Brienne considers Podrick Payne:He is still no squire, she reminded herself, but I am not a knight, no matter how many times he calls me "ser". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alguien Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I always thought Brienne deciding to paint her shield with the falling star and elm, the shield she remembered from her father's armory, was pretty tacit acknowledgment that she's Dunk's descendant. That, and her gigantic size. Her father's title, Evenstar, could reference the shield painting as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drowned Princess Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 This whole thread is making me very very happy for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. Perhaps it's the sheer joy of seeing a theory be proven in such a logical and methodical manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrja Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 This whole thread is making me very very happy for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. Perhaps it's the sheer joy of seeing a theory be proven in such a logical and methodical manner.Agreed. Dunk and Brienne are two of my favourite characters, and its nice to know there is more to their seeming connection than just my usual 'wishful thinking'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monday Posted June 2, 2011 Share Posted June 2, 2011 I googled it and found these SSM entries:Nice dig and find! Thank you.Brienne's POV not being present in ADWD makes me wonder whether she died or not at the end of Feast. It would seem to make her whole arc as a character quite pointless, or at least without resolution, so I can't see that happening, yet I don't see GRRM letting Brienne just hang for another full book, especially given that he ended her chapter in Feast with a cliffhanger (that sparked many theories). So it's possible that we'll see her through someone's POV (like Jaime), or at least that news of what happened to her. Or maybe she'll become UnBrienne (I really hope not). Maybe we'll get a Pod POV :) or Thoros or Gendry. This whole thread is making me very very happy for reasons I can't quite put my finger on. Perhaps it's the sheer joy of seeing a theory be proven in such a logical and methodical manner.Agreed. You've changed my mind guys. Thanks. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted June 3, 2011 Share Posted June 3, 2011 I've always thought it was extremely clear that Brienne wasn't a Knight. I guess it's never explicitly stated as such, but I can't imagine anyone would ever consider Knighting a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecan Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 ...Remember that Egg (a few years younger than Dunk) is great-grandfather to Robert, Stannis, Renly, Viserys, and Dany, who range from about 15 years older than Brienne to five or six years younger.Where is this called out in the books? I'm referring to the Baratheon connection specifically. I see that it's verified in A Wiki of Ice and Fire, so I'm sure you're right, but I've read all the books a number of times and honestly had no idea that Robert and his brothers were that closely related (2nd cousins) to their Targaryen counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evamitchelle Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 Where is this called out in the books? I'm referring to the Baratheon connection specifically. I see that it's verified in A Wiki of Ice and Fire, so I'm sure you're right, but I've read all the books a number of times and honestly had no idea that Robert and his brothers were that closely related (2nd cousins) to their Targaryen counterparts.I remember one reference especially : AFFC, Chapter 35, Samwell"Stannis has some of the dragon blood in him, yes. His brothers did as well. Rhaelle, Egg's little girl, she was how they came by it..." - Maester Aemon to SamI remember Rhaegar calling Robert his cousin as least once. I think it was also in Feast, a Jaime chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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