The R+L=J thread, part XII

[Eddard house stark]

but what if your time line is off by two months

[zmflavius]

but what if your time line is off by two months

But what if the whole ToJ scene actually didn't happen and Ned was just hallucinating? By all indications, the timeline isn't that off.

[Dark Lord]

what if the R + L= J is true but the R is not rhaeger but Robert B

If R stands for Robert, what is the point of Ned hiding his bastard?

[Kaitscralt]

wrong thread

[Dragonfish]

but what if your time line is off by two months

That's doubtful. Jon was born around the time of the Sack of King's Landing, which occurred around a year into the Rebellion. Which means that in order for Robert to be Jon's father, he'd had to have slept with Lyanna a couple months into the war, then lost her again. While this is perhaps technically possible, it is very contrived and also very unlikely.

Also, as Dark Lord said, if Jon is Robert's son then why would Ned hide that from Robert?

[Asarlai]

Joking evidence for R+L=J: If Jon is a Targ, then he is a Targ without dragons. Take the Targ banner and remove the dragon; what's left? A black banner :D

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

Joking evidence for R+L=J: If Jon is a Targ, then he is a Targ without dragons. Take the Targ banner and remove the dragon; what's left? A black banner :D

I am sold! :D

[Sang Kancil]

Joking evidence for R+L=J: If Jon is a Targ, then he is a Targ without dragons. Take the Targ banner and remove the dragon; what's left? A black banner :D

Not a joke actually, but a fair bit of evidence and foreshadowing.

There's a lot of foreshadowing in the books actually, the fact Jon Snow meets with Maester Aemon, his Targaryen relative, foreshadows that Jon Snow will also follow the same path, that of rejecting the throne, when offered to him, and serve out the rest of his life with the Night's Watch. Jon Snow will in the end not be the King of Westeros, even though he is the rightful heir according to the Targaryen laws of succession (males first). He will neither contemplate marrying his aunt to be co-ruler (even if it's a non-consummated political marriage) because he will not break his vows, like his uncle & adopted dad, Ned Stark.

That does not mean it rules him out from forming an alliance with his aunt, Daenerys Targaryen, and getting the chance to ride one of her dragons, Rhaegal, who is named after his dad.

And Tyrion Lannister is definitely both a Lannister (from mom's side) and a Targaryen. He's going to ride on the dragon named Viserion, because he's Daenerys's half-brother.

Bet on that happening.

[FacelessJoe]

You can ignore the fact the Targaryens practiced polygamy if you want, but it is true. The presence of a Targaryen heir, which could mean Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar enter into a polygamous marriage, explains the fact all three of the free remaining loyalist members of the Kingsguard are still at the tower instead of at least one of them being headed to Dragonstone. A much better explanation than these three men ignore the most important part of their oaths and follow like robots the last order given them. But as to why they are still at the tower if they are there to guard the heir, I think you miss two very important factors. First, there is no indication that throughout almost all the war that Robert or anyone else on the rebel side even knows the existence of the tower, much less that Lyanna is there. Not until Ned shows up with his small group of friends do we know that any rebels have found out his fact. Ask yourself this question, if Ned or Robert knew before this wouldn't the two of them tried to get to Lyanna before this? I think they would. Second, there is also the simple fact we know that explains why they haven't left the tower - Lyanna's health. She is sick with a fever in a bed of blood when Ned finds her; whether this is because she dying from complications from childbirth or some other factor is up in the air, but, at least at the end there is ample reason not to leave the tower if they consider Lyanna's health as a subject for concern.

We know for a fact that Rhaegar intented to make some big changes after he got back from the Trident, yes? That would probarly mean him taking the throne from his father. He might have told the Kingsguard to stay at the Tower to keep them in reserve, as well as protecting Lyanna and his unborn child, no matter if the child would be bastard born or not. The Dragon must have three heads after all and I don't think the third head/child wouldn't have to be legitimate. If this was to be a requirement though, R could just have the child legitimized(spelling?).

I haven't read the previous two pages so this could have been covered already. If so I apologize!

[FacelessJoe]

Ser Barristan's reaction to Cersei burning Robert's will shows that the presence of a new king/royal does not invalidate the orders of the last that they were supposed to enact.

Particularly not when the new king is a baby, far away, possibly dead, and, as someone else stressed, Rhaegar was Arthur Dayne's good friend.

Yes, when might makes right, the mightiest can do what they want. We know that polygamy and incest were Valyrian traditions, but Aegon the Conqueror adopted the Faith of the Seven pre-conquest, which explicitly bans such things (one of the points of contention between the Targaryens and the Faith).

Exactly. It was hopeless; their orders weren't to protect a person or an object (or they would have hidden it), but to hold the tower. They knew it was their death, but they had their honor and took their stand.

I Believe that it was the son of Aegon I that adopted the Faith for the Targs. He did so in order to apease(spelling?) the Westerosi people

[Dragonfish]

I Believe that it was the son of Aegon I that adopted the Faith for the Targs. He did so in order to apease(spelling?) the Westerosi people

Actually, Aegon followed the Faith as well. I think he converted before the Conquest, because ACoK describes the sept on Dragonstone as the sept that Aegon built and prayed in. Also, Aegon had to travel to the Starry Sept in Oldtown to receive the blessing of the High Septon there, so clearly he at least paid lip service to the Faith.

[Lily Rivers]

Hi everyone. I have read through almost all of the Jon's parentage re-read thread and a good deal of the R+L = J threads. I was wondering if anyone has started a "Jon's-parentage-based-solely-on-the-quotes-included-in-HBO" thread. I thought this would be an interesting contrast to the Jon's parentage debate from the books. I couldn't find a link to such a thread searching the site. Took a long hiatus from the forum due to book delays, boy did it take me a long time to get caught up.

[Noir Dove]

Hi everyone. I have read through almost all of the Jon's parentage re-read thread and a good deal of the R+L = J threads. I was wondering if anyone has started a "Jon's-parentage-based-solely-on-the-quotes-included-in-HBO" thread. I thought this would be an interesting contrast to the Jon's parentage debate from the books. I couldn't find a link to such a thread searching the site. Took a long hiatus from the forum due to book delays, boy did it take me a long time to get caught up.

I haven't seen anything like that. But it would be interesting. I have to say, my mom and my best friend have been watching the show, and NOT reading the books. And they have a million questions, but as the action rose towards the end of the season, the idea of who Jon's parents are faded dramatically. And they never even came close to guessing a popular theory. They accepted that Jon's mother is Wylla. And their questions were about her specifically.

So it will be interesting to see if additional theories come to light in the show, whether it's R+L or A+N or Unknown+N.

[Misanthrope]

And Tyrion Lannister is definitely both a Lannister (from mom's side) and a Targaryen. He's going to ride on the dragon named Viserion, because he's Daenerys's half-brother.

If Tywin isn't Tyrion's dad, it literally destroys Tyrion's entire storyline. :thumbsdown:

[malarky1231]

If Tywin isn't Tyrion's dad, it literally destroys Tyrion's entire storyline. :thumbsdown:

Yes Genna Lannister even commented that Tyrion was Tywin's true son and heir. Tyrion himself believes himself to be his father writ small.

[ADB]

If we were talking about Aerys's dying wish, I would say you had a valid point. Your theory that they were ordered to protecting the tower and were making a valiant last stand makes zero sense. They obviously were protecting someone or something in the tower that had higher precedence than their true King and Queen. While they may not have known about Aerys, they certainly knew about Rhaegar's death. Their priority is to protect the King and the royal family, not some worthless tower.

Speaking as a relative outsider to this argument, this point is EXACTLY what's been bothering me since I started re-reading AGOT a few weeks ago. Even if you assume that Jon is the bastard son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, there's no valid reason why three members of the Kingsguard would be there at the tower to protect him with their lives. Certainly the Kingsguard at the beginning of AGOT isn't out there protecting Robert's bastards. By all logic, those men should not have been there. Even if they were just at the end preparing to make a last stand, why were they THERE in the first place, instead of going back with Rhaegar when he left, or returning to King's Landing to protect Aerys? If Lyanna was just a mistress/kidnap victim, and Jon just a bastard, then why did they merit the protection of nearly half of the Kingsguard?

Honestly, before coming into this thread again I hadn't thought of the polygamy angle. But it would explain a hell of a lot. Suddenly, the Kingsguard's actions make sense if they were there protecting a legitimate heir to the throne. And not just an heir, but--according to the laws of Westeros--the king, first born of first born, taking precedence over Viserys.

There's also something else that occurred to me, rereading AGOT. All of Ned Stark's male children bear names resembling those of men who were important to him. His first son is Robb, after King Robert. Bran, after Brandon his brother. Rickon greatly resembles Rickard, the lost father. It seems likely that Jon is named after Jon Arryn... which might in itself be a little foreshadowing. Jon Arryn was, after all, the caretaker, but not the family--an adopted father figure, and protector. Ned is to Jon Snow what Jon Arryn was to Ned.

[jurble]

Ned really knows who [Jon’s parents are], but he can’t let on. That’s why it’s such a moving moment, those poignant scenes I have with Kit Harington [who plays Jon], because I couldn’t say what I really thought. There are so many things I could have said, because there is a love there between the two of them, but I can’t express it as overtly as I can with the other children, who I can hold and kiss. Even if I were his true father, I can’t talk about it for fear of offending my wife, who’s really bitter about this. So it’s really a cruel situation. Through no fault of his own, Ned took on a lot by taking Jon in.

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

Seems like to me, that Sean Bean just confirmed R+L=J.

[ADB]

And Tyrion Lannister is definitely both a Lannister (from mom's side) and a Targaryen.

Why from his mother's side? We know from King Robert's ancestry that Targaryen daughters periodically married outside their house. The Lannisters, being the richest family in the kingdoms and probably the second most powerful after the Targaryens, would be prime candidates for a marriage to a member of the royal house. So there's probably Targaryen blood in Tyrion's ancestry even with his parents being exactly as advertised.

Yes, Tyrion's father, brother, and uncle don't seem to display the "dragon dreams" that Tyrion has had--but then to our knowledge none of the recent Stark family before the current youngest generation displayed warg or greenseer abilities, either.

[chris.t.]

If R stands for Robert, what is the point of Ned hiding his bastard?

To keep him safe from the Lannisters.

I do not think that Robert is Jon's dad. I don't think the timeline works. However, if Robert were Jon's dad, Ned would have just as much reason to fear for Jon's life as if Rhaegar were the father.

Whereas Robert halfassedly sends assassins off to get Viserys and Daenerys, we see the Lannisters successfully murder babies on more than a few occasions.

[Dragonfish]

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2011/06/sean_bean_on_whats_next_for_ga.html

Seems like to me, that Sean Bean just confirmed R+L=J.

After reading that quote in context, I don't think it's really the confirmation it appears to be.

To keep him safe from the Lannisters.

I do not think that Robert is Jon's dad. I don't think the timeline works. However, if Robert were Jon's dad, Ned would have just as much reason to fear for Jon's life as if Rhaegar were the father.

Whereas Robert halfassedly sends assassins off to get Viserys and Daenerys, we see the Lannisters successfully murder babies on more than a few occasions.

I don't buy it. The only children the Lannisters had killed were the Targaryen children, and only after the Targaryens were essentially run out of Westeros. Ned had no reason to believe they'd target the bastard child of the new king. They're trying to get in good with Robert; killing his and Lyanna's child would seriously hamper that plan.

EDIT--Also, it still doesn't make sense why he wouldn't tell his wife who Jon really was. If R+L=J, then Ned is committing treason, and if his wife accidentally let this slip then the whole kingdom would be against him. But if Jon is Robert's son, then the only people who would do him harm are far away to the South, so Ned can afford to at least tell the people he loves who Jon really is. Ned's vigilant secrecy on this issue just doesn't fit if Jon is Robert's son, IMO.