The R+L=J thread, part XII

[Galen M]

I applaud both sides using evidence within the series to support each theory but this stupid theory/point is driving me NUTS. It ranks up there with these TV only people who actually think SHAE is a Targ because she is "resistant" to fire in the show! I mean, REALLY!?!?! :shocked: :tantrum:

You didn't know that Tyrion was secretly whoring it up with his half sister? Aerys raped Joanna, and they begot Tyrion. Aerys raped some other random noble to beget Shae. That's why Shae won't talk about her parents and makes Tyrion drink when he says that her parents were lowborn.

Oops, this is the book forum, but people seem to be forgetting that of late, so I might as well do it, too.

[Lord Advantine]

I applaud both sides using evidence within the series to support each theory but this stupid theory/point is driving me NUTS. It ranks up there with these TV only people who actually think SHAE is a Targ because she is "resistant" to fire in the show! I mean, REALLY!?!?! :shocked: :tantrum:

Yeah, Viserys is clearly Targ and he got burned to death by molten gold nevertheless.

[Xcorpyo001]

Yeah, Viserys is clearly Targ and he got burned to death by molten gold nevertheless.

I never got that comment the first time, and not now.

Molten gold=/=fire.

Is the same as saying that you can't kill a fish by stabbing it with a sharp piece of ice because it can breath under water.

Gold is just a metal, not living fire.

[SerArthurHeath]

I never got that comment the first time, and not now.

Molten gold=/=fire.

Is the same as saying that you can't kill a fish by stabbing it with a sharp piece of ice because it can breath under water.

Gold is just a metal, not living fire.

Yeah but it's fair to say that it is the energy released as heat by the oxidation of chemicals that causes damage with a fire (mostly because that's true) as the light aspect of this is just another wavelength of electromagnetic energy which is visible but is not high frequency enough to actually denature proteins and DNA by displacing electrons. The damage caused by molten gold is allowing certainly the same. Thus if heat from molten gold can kill Viserys, Targs are not impervious to fire. Fire is not special, unless it is magic fire. Like the one that Dany survived. And even that should have starved her of oxygen.

[morbiczer]

1. Robb told Catelyn he intended to legitimize Jon and release him from his vows in order to make him his heir. We don't know if he actually ended up doing that, though. (...).

Actually no. Robb intended to legitimise Jon, and Catelyn pointed out that he still would be bound by his NW vows. Robb replied that the NW certainly could find a way to release him from his vows, but he never mentioned that he would do it himself. To me it is clear from that passage, that a) Robb as a king does not have the power to release somebody from his NW vows, and B) that he is not even certain that the NW can do that (there is no precedent known to him), and he only hopes that they could and would do that.

To me it is pretty clear that even if Robb legitimised Jon, or he was of legitimate birth all the time via R and L, he is still stuck in the NW for all his life, and cannot inherint anything, let alone a crown.

Note that when Stannis offers Winterfell to Jon, even he does not claim to have the right to release him from hsi vows, he just argues that those vows are invalid in the first place, since they were made to false gods.

[Xcorpyo001]

Yeah but it's fair to say that it is the energy released as heat by the oxidation of chemicals that causes damage with a fire (mostly because that's true) as the light aspect of this is just another wavelength of electromagnetic energy which is visible but is not high frequency enough to actually denature proteins and DNA by displacing electrons. The damage caused by molten gold is allowing certainly the same. Thus if heat from molten gold can kill Viserys, Targs are not impervious to fire. Fire is not special, unless it is magic fire. Like the one that Dany survived. And even that should have starved her of oxygen.

I don't think Dany can survive a bath in molten gold.

Even if she can miraculously survive the heat, the metal solidifying inside her ears, eyes, mouth, nose, stomach, lungs, will kill her just the same.

[K-dog]

you cannot name anyone as your heir. an heir is by definition one who takes by intestacy (i.e. when there is no will). if you name some one to take your property by will (i.e. you devise or bequest to them), the person is a devisee (if taking real property) and a beneficiary (if taking personal property), not an heir (and technically, in the medial ages, in england, real property was not devisable at all; it descended solely according to the law of primogeniture. so there was no testamentary disposition of land. will's were the exclusive domain of the ecclesiastical courts and solely for the disposition of personal property--to ann, my 3rd best frock etc...). most land in england that belonged to peers was entailed anyway (i.e a fee tail), so that no female could inherit regardless, though it doesn't seem that that is the case in westeros.

the point the other poster was making was absolutely correct--rob could only legitimize jon, in which case jon falls into the chain of heredity, but rob could not make him his heir. the other argument made is legally possible as well, that by legitimizing jon, he makes jon someone's heir, but not necessarily his own (however, jon could take always take winterfell through his mother, if legitimized, even if he is not ned's son, but rhaegars...)

Thanks for the support! I thought I had misremembered my post William the Conquerer English Law but it seems someone else took the course and recalls it like I do. I really think it is an important distinction because if Jon is a bastard of someone other than Ned, the act of a King, any King, in making him legitimate could create an alteration in someone else's line of inheritance.

[Masha]

I was re watching episode 2 when Jon parts with Ned and I noticed that when Ned says the words "next time we see eachother, we'll talk about your mother" he seems overly emotional, an emotion that seems only sparked when the mention of his sister comes into play and her promise. Most noticeably his lip movements...looks like he wants to cry. Since D&D know the heritage, they could've instructed Sean to throw in that extra tad bit. They could have just got away without the lip movements..but that detail is there...he was chokin up! O_x

May have been brought up before, and I apologize if it has, just don't have the time to search threads for 1 concept. x_x

This line was in the books originally and Ned might have been emotional in saying goodbye to his son who is basically leaving forever.

Heh... I thought I'd find that quoted in this thread. And it certainly does at least partially give that impression, although it's not conclusive if you look at the whole context.

Still, as one who is predisposed to believe R+L=J from my first read-through, I wouldn't at all be surprised to find out that's what he meant.

I read that interview and while Sean teases, he never says yes or no. Besides as someone who leaves in first season I doubt GRRM disclosed Jon's true parentage to him, he read the script and the book(s) only. Even D&D had to guess, and they are show creators!

[Dragonfish]

Actually no. Robb intended to legitimise Jon, and Catelyn pointed out that he still would be bound by his NW vows. Robb replied that the NW certainly could find a way to release him from his vows, but he never mentioned that he would do it himself. To me it is clear from that passage, that a) Robb as a king does not have the power to release somebody from his NW vows, and B) that he is not even certain that the NW can do that (there is no precedent known to him), and he only hopes that they could and would do that.

To me it is pretty clear that even if Robb legitimised Jon, or he was of legitimate birth all the time via R and L, he is still stuck in the NW for all his life, and cannot inherint anything, let alone a crown.

Note that when Stannis offers Winterfell to Jon, even he does not claim to have the right to release him from hsi vows, he just argues that those vows are invalid in the first place, since they were made to false gods.

From a GRRM interview:

"Is there any chance that Jon could be released from his oaths of the nightwatch?"

"The great council would have released Aemon from his maester's oath, so I suppose it would be possible. With an appropriate authority."

Not clearcut evidence, but the author believes it could be possible "with an appropriate authority." Perhaps that authority has to be something more than a sole king, but it is at least possible that Jon could be released from his vows.

I don't think Dany can survive a bath in molten gold.

Even if she can miraculously survive the heat, the metal solidifying inside her ears, eyes, mouth, nose, stomach, lungs, will kill her just the same.

She wouldn't survive the heat, because she's not immune to heat. That's the point of using the molten gold as comparison. GRRM himself uses it as a comparison, so I think it's perfectly valid for us to use it as a comparison.

Thanks for the support! I thought I had misremembered my post William the Conquerer English Law but it seems someone else took the course and recalls it like I do. I really think it is an important distinction because if Jon is a bastard of someone other than Ned, the act of a King, any King, in making him legitimate could create an alteration in someone else's line of inheritance.

Any king? So if, say, the King of the Summer Islands (not sure if they have a king, just go with it) legitimized Jon, then Jon would be truly legitimate in the eyes of the Westerosi?

This line was in the books originally and Ned might have been emotional in saying goodbye to his son who is basically leaving forever.

Actually, that scene wasn't in the books, and neither was the line where Ned tells Jon they'll talk about his mother. However, the line "You may not have my name, but you have my blood" is a variation of something Ned says in the books.

[mormant]

I disagree with R+L=J. I'm half way through aCoKs for the fourth time and am once again convinced that Ned is Jon's father.

Here is my eveidence....

In book 1, Dany has a dream about the last dragon.... she eventually comes across Rhaegar in her dreams and Rhaegar raises his helmet. After raising his visor all she sees is her own face. So I think that means danyraes is the last dragon.

Book 2. Dany goes through the warlock thingy and in one scene you see Rhaegar looking down proudly over Aegon, his son. Talk of 3 dragon heads is big at this point.... vision-Rhaegar says "there needs to be one more" he kind of looks at Dany then.

It shows time and time again that Dany is the last dragon. Making it impossible for Jon to be Rhaegars son.

Just my opinion.

P.S I'm not proving Ned is dad to Jon. Just disproving that Rhaegar is dad. There is no way Rhaegar is dad when yoou read the books in context.

as i said... just my opinion.

[LadyMary]

I disagree with R+L=J. I'm half way through aCoKs for the fourth time and am once again convinced that Ned is Jon's father.

Here is my eveidence....

In book 1, Dany has a dream about the last dragon.... she eventually comes across Rhaegar in her dreams and Rhaegar raises his helmet. After raising his visor all she sees is her own face. So I think that means danyraes is the last dragon.

Book 2. Dany goes through the warlock thingy and in one scene you see Rhaegar looking down proudly over Aegon, his son. Talk of 3 dragon heads is big at this point.... vision-Rhaegar says "there needs to be one more" he kind of looks at Dany then.

It shows time and time again that Dany is the last dragon. Making it impossible for Jon to be Rhaegars son.

Just my opinion.

P.S I'm not proving Ned is dad to Jon. Just disproving that Rhaegar is dad. There is no way Rhaegar is dad when yoou read the books in context.

as i said... just my opinion.

Mormant, no worries... We're all just stating our opinions, until the author tells us definitively one way or another.

As to your post, prophesies are not specific. Who or what the prophesy about the PTWP actually applies to is different than who/what Rhaegar believed the prophesy applied to while he was still alive. In fact, several characters, including Rhaegar, Maester Aemon and Melisandre thought the PTWP and/or AA are different people, and they were wrong. Rhaegar thought the prophesy was about himself, then later thought it was about his son Aegon. Aemon believed that at the time but realizes before he died that they were both wrong, and he was convinced the PTWP is Daenerys. Melisandre thinks Stannis is the AA (which is confirmed to be another version of the same prophesy as the PTWP). As far as we know, she doesn't know about Dany and her dragons and she's wrong about Stannis (she admits that interpretations of prophesies can be wrong).

Anyway...

Dany has her prophetic visions after Rhaegar's death (and the death of Aegon). Even if Dany is the true PTWP (which appears likely), while Rhaegar was still alive he believed that baby Aegon was the PTWP and that the dragon has three heads. He was wrong but he didn't know that because he didn't know that Daenerys existed or that she would grow up to become the Mother of Dragons. He still believed that his children fulfilled the prophesy. If he was trying to fulfill the prophesy through his children, he would still need to have the children int he first place. So, while Dany's visions may lead to the conclusion that she is the PTWP, this doesn't prove or disprove that Jon is Rhaegar's son. There's better evidence to support that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Whether or not Dany is the "last dragon" wouldn't be changed by that because she's the last born dragon (that anyone knows about) and the last full-blooded Targaryen and that doesn't prove or disprove Jon's parentage either.

[Dragonfish]

Welcome to the board, mormant.

In book 1, Dany has a dream about the last dragon.... she eventually comes across Rhaegar in her dreams and Rhaegar raises his helmet. After raising his visor all she sees is her own face. So I think that means danyraes is the last dragon.

I don't remember this quote, could you provide a citation?

In any event, in the first book Dany is clearly not the last Targaryen, as Maester Aemon is still alive. Also, maybe Viserys, depending on when this dream took place. The point is, just because Dany may be the "last dragon" (and I'm not yet sure that I agree with that interpretation of the dream, considering that I don't remember it) does not necessarily mean that she's the last Targaryen.

Book 2. Dany goes through the warlock thingy and in one scene you see Rhaegar looking down proudly over Aegon, his son. Talk of 3 dragon heads is big at this point.... vision-Rhaegar says "there needs to be one more" he kind of looks at Dany then.

I'm not sure how "there needs to be one more" means that Dany is the last dragon, in the sense that she's the only one left. "One more" does not mean "only one." Not to mention, if the dragon must have three heads, then doesn't that imply that there may very well be more than one Targaryen left?

Furthermore, that scene in the House of the Undying is actually important evidence for R+L=J, because it lets us know that Rhaegar believed he needed a third child. Since Elia was very sickly and likely wouldn't survive another pregnancy, that meant that Rhaegar had to look elsewhere for a mother to his third child. Hmmm...I wonder who he chose? :)

P.S I'm not proving Ned is dad to Jon. Just disproving that Rhaegar is dad. There is no way Rhaegar is dad when yoou read the books in context.

Actually, I think it's the opposite. If you read these essays from the Tower of the Hand and the Citadel, you'll see that there's a lot of evidence from the books in favor of R+L=J.

[mormant]

I got sql'ed or whatever lol.

Anyways, you asked for a quote so here it is,

The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his

eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. "Aegon," he said to a woman nursing

a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. "What better name for a king?"

"Will you make a song for him?" the woman asked.

"He has a song," the man replied. "He is the prince that was promised, and his

is the song of ice and fire." He looked up when he said it and his eyes met

Dany's, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. "There

must be one more," he said

So this says that Rhaegar thought he had 2 and needed 1 more. In Rhaegars mind, he was 1, Aegon was 2 and.... he needed a 3rd. He was right. The 3rd is Dany.

[Dragonfish]

I got sql'ed or whatever lol.

The first of many times you will be sql'ed. It has become almost a rite of passage on the board. :)

Anyways, you asked for a quote so here it is,

I meant the quote of Dany's dream in the first book, not the scene from the House of the Undying.

So this says that Rhaegar thought he had 2 and needed 1 more. In Rhaegars mind, he was 1, Aegon was 2 and.... he needed a 3rd. He was right. The 3rd is Dany.

No, we know from Maester Aemon that Rhaegar once thought he was the PWWP, but then later changed his mind and believed it was his son Aegon. Most likely he believed his daughter Rhaenys, whom he named after one of Aegon the Conqueror's sisters, was the second head, and the third head would be another one of his children. We have no indication that he thought it was Dany.

Anyway, if Rhaegar believed himself and Aegon to be two of the three heads, then clearly he was wrong, yes? So if he was wrong about that, then who knows what else he was wrong about. And even if he was right about who the heads of the dragon were...how exactly does that prove that Dany is the last remaining Targaryen?

[Silverin]

The first of many times you will be sql'ed. It has become almost a rite of passage on the board. :)

I meant the quote of Dany's dream in the first book, not the scene from the House of the Undying.

No, we know from Maester Aemon that Rhaegar once thought he was the PWWP, but then later changed his mind and believed it was his son Aegon. Most likely he believed his daughter Rhaenys, whom he named after one of Aegon the Conqueror's sisters, was the second head, and the third head would be another one of his children. We have no indication that he thought it was Dany.

Anyway, if Rhaegar believed himself and Aegon to be two of the three heads, then clearly he was wrong, yes? So if he was wrong about that, then who knows what else he was wrong about. And even if he was right about who the heads of the dragon were...how exactly does that prove that Dany is the last remaining Targaryen?

At that time Rhaegar's daughter was still alive, so he could mean her.

EDIT: And since Elia was very fragile, so for her becoming pregnant once again would be risky, Rhaegar probably thought: Nice I have a daughter and a son, but since my wife is sickly I need some girl to knock up so the third head will be born.

And a little time later at the tourney in Harrenhal, he just happeneds to find her. And at home when Elia ask, why didnt you give me the flower? He will say, chill out woman, she shall bear the third head.

And Elia sais: Oh that is cool then.

By the way why didnt Rhaegar consider Vyseris. I mean by the time his son is born there are three children in the next generation of Targaryen?

[mormant]

I meant the quote of Dany's dream in the first book, not the scene from the House of the Undying.

this one?

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire

glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser

Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his

polished black visor. The face within was her own.

So this is yet more proof of Dany being the last dragon. All the things we discussed disproves Jon being a dragon imo. I think he is a

stark and has no relation to dragon or Dany herself.

[Dr. Acula]

So this says that Rhaegar thought he had 2 and needed 1 more. In Rhaegars mind, he was 1, Aegon was 2 and.... he needed a 3rd. He was right. The 3rd is Dany.

If he thinks the world depends on another Targ being born he is more likely to have another kid himself than sit back and hope his crazy dad decides to have another.

And Dany's dream means she thinks she is the last dragon, not that she is.

[SerArthurHeath]

this one?

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire

glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser

Jorah's voice whispered faintly. last, the last." Dany lifted his

polished black visor. The face within was her own.

So this is yet more proof of Dany being the last dragon. All the things we discussed disproves Jon being a dragon imo. I think he is a

stark and has no relation to dragon or Dany herself.

Didn't we already counter these points a couple of pages back when someone else made them and had them? Aside from the fact that we know there is at least one other living Targ (Aemon), Jon would be older than Dany and thus not the last chronologically and jon is discounted from being "a dragon" by virtue of his oath or by his bastardy. Dany being the last dragon, for which this is evidence (albeit no stronger than any individual R+L=J clue) not proof, doesn't preclude Jon being Rhaegar's son.

[Dragonfish]

At that time Rhaegar's daughter was still alive, so he could mean her.

EDIT: And since Elia was very fragile, so for her becoming pregnant once again would be risky, Rhaegar probably thought: Nice I have a daughter and a son, but since my wife is sickly I need some girl to knock up so the third head will be born.

And a little time later at the tourney in Harrenhal, he just happeneds to find her. And at home when Elia ask, why didnt you give me the flower? He will say, chill out woman, she shall bear the third head.

And Elia sais: Oh that is cool then.

I agree with pretty much everything you wrote here. In fact, I'm not sure why you're addressing me with your post, since I've already stated everything you've said here.

By the way why didnt Rhaegar consider Vyseris. I mean by the time his son is born there are three children in the next generation of Targaryen?

Hmmm...I don't know. Maybe he just thought the three heads had to be his own children? The way he named his two children (Aegon and Rhaenys) makes me think he believed he would have a second girl and name her Visenya, after Aegon the Conqueror's other sister.

this one?

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire

glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. "The last dragon," Ser

Jorah's voice whispered faintly. "The last, the last." Dany lifted his

polished black visor. The face within was her own.

So this is yet more proof of Dany being the last dragon. All the things we discussed disproves Jon being a dragon imo. I think he is a

stark and has no relation to dragon or Dany herself.

See Dr. Acula's and SerArthurHeath's posts.

[mormant]

Didn't we already counter these points a couple of pages back when someone else made them and had them? Aside from the fact that we know there is at least one other living Targ (Aemon), Jon would be older than Dany and thus not the last chronologically and jon is discounted from being "a dragon" by virtue of his oath or by his bastardy. Dany being the last dragon, for which this is evidence (albeit no stronger than any individual R+L=J clue) not proof, doesn't preclude Jon being Rhaegar's son.

....

you're reading for straws....