The R+L=J thread, part XII

[LadyMary]

Ned Stark strikes me as the kind of guy who wouldn't like to leave a child of his in some far-off village. It's a hard choice, but we don't know enough about what happened or the circumstances to say why he made it, if he did (of course the situation is greatly changed for Ned+Ashara or Rhaegar+Lyanna). The mother likely would have known that Jon would have had a better life as a lord's son, too, so even if she was sad, she may well have consented.

I don't actually think Wylla is the mother (I'm thinking Ashara), but it's not inconceivable.

Ned doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would take a child away from his mother, whether Jon's mother was common or noble - unless Jon's mother was dead, incapacitated or had abandoned Jon.

Think about it: If Wylla is truly Jon's mother, then Ned took Jon away from her, gave him to another wet nurse who presumably traveled with him to Winterfell while his own mother who nursed him remained behind as a servant to another family; or Wylla traveled to Winterfell with Ned and Jon and then left her son behind to return to Dorne presumably after Jon was weened. But why would she do that, especially if she knew that Jon caused a rift between the Lord and his Lady? Ned refused to even tell Jon or Catelyn her name as if it's some huge secret. Meanwhile Edric Dayne acts like it's common knowledge that Wylla is Jon's mother, so it must not have been a secret at her end.*

Now, if Jon's mother was Ashara then it might have made sense that Ned took Jon because Ashara is dead. He might keep her identity a secret because she was a noble woman to spare the Lady's reputation especially if he felt guilt that he contributed to her despair, and because she committed suicide so that Jon wouldn't know his mother had killed herself rather than live for him (IMO, it's still wrong to keep it a secret just to spare Jon's feelings because Jon wanted to know).

That doesn't explain what the big promise was that Ned made to Lyanna that caused him to live lies for the rest of his life. The other hints, even if they're not explicit in canon, lays out a much more believable scenario that doesn't require nearly as much speculation and conjecture; that Lyanna gave birth to Rhaegar's son in the Tower of Joy sometime during the almost year that they were together, that she caught an infection post-partum and was dying 'in her bed of blood' when her brother reached her and that the promise that she made Ned give was to protect her son. Given Ned's many thoughts about his guilt for lies he had to tell and what it caused him, it must have been something monumental. Protecting the son (legitimate or otherwise) of the crown Prince in the face of Robert's irrational hatred of Rhaegar and his fear of the Targaryen children who had a more legitimate claim to the throne by blood, would be a reason to keep a secret too dangerous to tell even those Ned loved and trusted the most.

* I've read postings that say Wylla claimed to Jon's mother. When did she do that? Edric Dayne speaks about it like it's common knowledge, but I don't think we ever get any first hand account from Wylla, do we?

[SFDanny]

* I've read postings that say Wylla claimed to Jon's mother. When did she do that? Edric Dayne speaks about it like it's common knowledge, but I don't think we ever get any first hand account from Wylla, do we?

There is no first hand account from Wylla. We haven't met her yet. The claim to be Jon's mom comes via Ned Dayne, who does speak as if it's common knowledge, but also speaks from discussions with Wylla himself. Unless we have reason to doubt young Ned that I don't now of, I think his assertion that Wylla says she is Jon's mother is entirely crediible. Whether she truly is or not is another matter entirely.

[R_Thunder]

So after rewatching the 9th episode, I picked up on Maester Aemons speech to Jon. Quoted somethign like this

"If your father ever had to choose between duty/honor and love, what would he choose?" Jon answers "he woudl choose what is right"

I haven't read AGOT in years, so sorry if this has been discussed, but just adds to the R+L = J argument in my opinion. Ned is not of the nights watch, he can choose love over honor.

It adds ambiguity as well, but hey, thats GRRM for you.

Carry on.

[Petergrifindor]

So after rewatching the 9th episode, I picked up on Maester Aemons speech to Jon. Quoted somethign like this

"If your father ever had to choose between duty/honor and love, what would he choose?" Jon answers "he woudl choose what is right"

I haven't read AGOT in years, so sorry if this has been discussed, but just adds to the R+L = J argument in my opinion. Ned is not of the nights watch, he can choose love over honor.

It adds ambiguity as well, but hey, thats GRRM for you.

Carry on.

I agree, Ned confession at Baelor reveals a lot about his personality. He chooses his family above his honor. And the implications are obvious.

To me R+L=J is crystal clear.

[the silent speaker]

Quick question for all R+Lers, that I haven't yet seen asked: Ned Dayne would know nothing until a good ten years after Jon left Starfall. Assuming Jon's real parentage is the subject of a conspiracy of silence among a select few there ... why is it still being talked about? I don't mean silencing people, like Ned Stark did in Winterfell; I mean the scandal simply dying down. There was no mystery about Jon's parentage; Wylla said it was Ned, Ned acknowledged that she was right, to Joe Dornishman there's no reason to probe further. Wylla was not highborn, so it's not like her having a child in itself would capture imaginations; plus this is Dorne, which is more relaxed than the rest of Westeros on the subject (if probably not as relaxed as fandom sometimes makes it out to be). Jon wasn't even there to be the focus of comment. Why is it still the subject of talk, ten years later -- maybe seventeen -- in Starfall, who the mother of the Bastard of Winterfell is? I'm sure Wylla would still cop to it if asked, but why is anyone bringing it up?

[Galen M]

Quick question for all R+Lers, that I haven't yet seen asked: Ned Dayne would know nothing until a good ten years after Jon left Starfall. Assuming Jon's real parentage is the subject of a conspiracy of silence among a select few there ... why is it still being talked about? I don't mean silencing people, like Ned Stark did in Winterfell; I mean the scandal simply dying down. There was no mystery about Jon's parentage; Wylla said it was Ned, Ned acknowledged that she was right, to Joe Dornishman there's no reason to probe further. Wylla was not highborn, so it's not like her having a child in itself would capture imaginations; plus this is Dorne, which is more relaxed than the rest of Westeros on the subject (if probably not as relaxed as fandom sometimes makes it out to be). Jon wasn't even there to be the focus of comment. Why is it still the subject of talk, ten years later -- maybe seventeen -- in Starfall, who the mother of the Bastard of Winterfell is? I'm sure Wylla would still cop to it if asked, but why is anyone bringing it up?

it's a fair enough point, but it works the other way, too. Why would Wylla still be bragging about having birthed Ned Stark's bastard. True or false, you're right, it makes no sense for her to still be talking about it.

[nahuatl]

Quick question for all R+Lers, that I haven't yet seen asked: Ned Dayne would know nothing until a good ten years after Jon left Starfall. Assuming Jon's real parentage is the subject of a conspiracy of silence among a select few there ... why is it still being talked about? I don't mean silencing people, like Ned Stark did in Winterfell; I mean the scandal simply dying down. There was no mystery about Jon's parentage; Wylla said it was Ned, Ned acknowledged that she was right, to Joe Dornishman there's no reason to probe further. Wylla was not highborn, so it's not like her having a child in itself would capture imaginations; plus this is Dorne, which is more relaxed than the rest of Westeros on the subject (if probably not as relaxed as fandom sometimes makes it out to be). Jon wasn't even there to be the focus of comment. Why is it still the subject of talk, ten years later -- maybe seventeen -- in Starfall, who the mother of the Bastard of Winterfell is? I'm sure Wylla would still cop to it if asked, but why is anyone bringing it up?

Well if Wylla has been going around for over a decade and half claiming to be Jon's mother, why is Ashara Dayne's name constantly brought up? Catelyn and Cercei are the two that come to mind. Something about Jon's mother just doesn't add up and the list is long and exhaustily dissected here, but it always comes back to WHY is the identity of Jon's mother such a big deal? When Lyanna is added to the candidates not only do all the clues seem to point her, head-scratching mysteries such as Ned's guilt and the toll the promise to his sister took on him,the Kingsguard at the TOJ when they should be with Viserys and so on and so forth suddenly make sense. R+L=J is the most elegant answer.

[malarky1231]

Until further information is revealed, at the moment R+L=J is the most believable of the three. I'd like to see how Martin goes about revealing Jon's parentage. I certainly hope it's not tacked on, and is revealing bit by bit through the rest of the series. I don't want to know what happens until the last book, when all the suspense finally builds up and loose ends are tied up. Unlike many other authors, Martin does an exceptional job at storytelling, as he develops the legends slowly, revealing info bit by bit. That way suspense is built up, and that is why we have all these interesting theories and threads. If Martin just told us immediately, or in a few books, then it wouldn't be as exciting or mysterious.

[LadyMary]

it's a fair enough point, but it works the other way, too. Why would Wylla still be bragging about having birthed Ned Stark's bastard. True or false, you're right, it makes no sense for her to still be talking about it.

We don't know that she was bragging about birthing Jon Snow. Edric may just have heard the palace gossip or what was treated as common knowledge in Starfall from the time when they concocted the cover story and carried down in oral history as the only noteworthy past moment of lapsed honor by the otherwise squeaky clean V.I.P. - Eddard Stark, Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North.

The fact that Jon's parentage is still a mystery to most people suggests that the story was kept pretty close to the vest at least outside Starfall. If Ned conspired to cover the truth he would have wanted the chatter it to die down quickly. After 14 years (17 TV years) it was only important to Jon and Ned and probably a very few other people who kept the secret.

[SFDanny]

Quick question for all R+Lers, that I haven't yet seen asked: Ned Dayne would know nothing until a good ten years after Jon left Starfall. Assuming Jon's real parentage is the subject of a conspiracy of silence among a select few there ... why is it still being talked about? I don't mean silencing people, like Ned Stark did in Winterfell; I mean the scandal simply dying down. There was no mystery about Jon's parentage; Wylla said it was Ned, Ned acknowledged that she was right, to Joe Dornishman there's no reason to probe further. Wylla was not highborn, so it's not like her having a child in itself would capture imaginations; plus this is Dorne, which is more relaxed than the rest of Westeros on the subject (if probably not as relaxed as fandom sometimes makes it out to be). Jon wasn't even there to be the focus of comment. Why is it still the subject of talk, ten years later -- maybe seventeen -- in Starfall, who the mother of the Bastard of Winterfell is? I'm sure Wylla would still cop to it if asked, but why is anyone bringing it up?

While Ned Dayne does indeed talk to Arya like it is common knowledge that the Lord of Winterfell had a bastard son with Wylla, the heir of Starfall's wetnurse, it is not true that he says it is still being talked about by the people in Starfall. One does not mean the other. It maybe there is still gossip surrounding the death of Lady Ashara, and Wylla's name and her bastard come up as part of the cause of that death, but that would be natural. It has to strike people every where, not just in Starfall, that a woman who has an affair and a child with the man who is said to be the cause of Ashara's broken heart is employed by the Dayne's - to the extent they even allow her to nurse their heir. The Daynes are saints, or there is more to the backstory than we are told - such as hiding the identity of Jon's real mother.

[JakePT]

It's funny, reading all four books and I didn't pick up on this theory once. It was just one of the many mind blowing theories I read after scouring the net once I'd finished the books. (It turns out my reading comprehension isn't particularly good).

I gotta say, while all signs point to it being true, I am somewhat disappointed. Ned being one of my, if not most, favourite character, I find it a shame that Jon might not be his son, especially after... Robb. So I'm holding out some hope that it's a misdirect and there's something else going on.

[SerArthurHeath]

It's funny, reading all four books and I didn't pick up on this theory once. It was just one of the many mind blowing theories I read after scouring the net once I'd finished the books. (It turns out my reading comprehension isn't particularly good).

I gotta say, while all signs point to it being true, I am somewhat disappointed. Ned being one of my, if not most, favourite character, I find it a shame that Jon might not be his son, especially after... Robb. So I'm holding out some hope that it's a misdirect and there's something else going on.

I think a lot of people agree with you but can't admit that their reaction is purely emotional without a real logical basis so they desperately try to find flaws in the theory. Not that it's perfect at all. But why does it matter if Ned isn't Jon's blood father? He's the man who made him and raised him and the man who is Jon's father in his eyes, which is a theme I quite like in these books- people's real parents are the ones who brought them up. Theon never really had one, Jaime, Tyrion and Cersei's father's coldness has shaped them, Joff only had Joffrey. Dany had nobody, really, until the likes of Jorah. I don't care if Ned is literally his father, he can still be proud to call him his son. Just like Disney's Hercules

[SerArthurHeath]

One thing- Dany is all Targ, not half Dornish. She's Rhaegar's sister, not his daughter

[SerArthurHeath]

But as I said in my earlier post which I presume was deleted because it quoted the post accusing mods of corruption, Jon would be a bastard, not a dragon, the dream is not given any evidence indicating it is prophetic, Aemon is a dragon too so Dany is clearly not the last dragon unless he is discounted due to his vows (so is Jon) or because last refers to when they were born (Jon is older than Dany too, I think?)

[glassgardens]

Could the fact that Ghost was from the same litter as Grey Wind (RIP), Lady (RIP), Nymeria, Summer and Shaggydog possibly be a vote in favor of Ned actually being Jon's dad? I mean, I don't think he is, I think he's Mr. Honor and he kept his sister's secret his whole life, but those wolves (and the dire-wolf-symbolizing-Ned-Stark mom dying from engaging a Baratheon-symbolizing stag) are so obviously paired with the kids that it makes me wonder...

[DecoyRunner]

What are the chances R+L=J threads ruined GRRM's planned big surprised and he had to rejig the whole story? That might explain the extended delays? Not saying that's a bad thing. Just musing aloud, really.

[Lord Bloodraven]

Okay, I haven't been around the boards in ages, but I'm doing a re-read of the books and R+L=J has started to nag at me...

I think the main reasons it's likely that Jon is not Ned's son, but still a (half) Stark, come down to a couple facts:

1. The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. I did a quick breeze through this thread and it seems it was already mentioned, but why would the KG be at the Tower of Joy unless they were protecting Rhaegar's heir and thus the heir to the Seven Kingdoms? In Ned's dream after he and his men are attacked near that brothel, he speaks to the KG and tells them how he didn't see them at the Trident or when the siege at Storm's End was broken; the only reason I can think of is because Rhaegar had them at the ToJ to protect his heir. These three men of the Kingsguard who Ned meets at the ToJ are legendary for their bravery, honor, and sense of duty, so surely they would take issue with being sent off just to guard Lyanna if she weren't pregnant with Rhaegar's child.

2. When Catelyn is going over Ned's response when she confronted him for the first time about Jon's mother, he tells her that Jon is his blood. Nothing specific. Not, "my son" or anything like that. If Jon is his blood, then he could quite easily be Lyanna's son and thus Ned's nephew.

3. What happened to Lyanna in the Tower of Joy if she wasn't dying from childbirth? If that wasn't the case, then that leaves Robert's belief that Rhaegar raped and brutally abused her as a possibility, which, I doubt could have gone on if the same KG knights were present.

Just my two cents. I know these arguments have been analysed and picked apart for years :cheers:

[Dragonfish]

Could the fact that Ghost was from the same litter as Grey Wind (RIP), Lady (RIP), Nymeria, Summer and Shaggydog possibly be a vote in favor of Ned actually being Jon's dad? I mean, I don't think he is, I think he's Mr. Honor and he kept his sister's secret his whole life, but those wolves (and the dire-wolf-symbolizing-Ned-Stark mom dying from engaging a Baratheon-symbolizing stag) are so obviously paired with the kids that it makes me wonder...

Well, if we go by this logic, then Jon must be a full sibling of the other Starks, because Ghost is a full sibling of the other direwolves. Or Ned must be a woman, because the parent that the direwolf pups share is female. :)

I think it's best not to overanalyze Jon's familial relationship based on the familial relationship of the children's wolves. Otherwise, you run into problems like those above.

[Frumpus]

Could the fact that Ghost was from the same litter as Grey Wind (RIP), Lady (RIP), Nymeria, Summer and Shaggydog possibly be a vote in favor of Ned actually being Jon's dad? I mean, I don't think he is, I think he's Mr. Honor and he kept his sister's secret his whole life, but those wolves (and the dire-wolf-symbolizing-Ned-Stark mom dying from engaging a Baratheon-symbolizing stag) are so obviously paired with the kids that it makes me wonder...

I think it's more likely that GRRM wrote that chapter before coming up with Jon's true origins. That symbolism doesn't mean anything IMO.

[zmflavius]

What are the chances R+L=J threads ruined GRRM's planned big surprised and he had to rejig the whole story? That might explain the extended delays? Not saying that's a bad thing. Just musing aloud, really.

I don't think it's likely, as GRRM avoids fan-boards for this precise reason.