Details, details details part V

[Anaxilas]

In AGOT, during the Hand's tournament, Littlefinger and Renly make a bet. Littlefinger puts his money on the Hound, Renly on Jaime Lannister. Renly wins and says something like "I wish the Imp was here, then I'd have won twice as much", implying that Tyrion would have betted on Jaime as well. I think this is the first indication that LF couldn't have lost his dagger to Tyrion.

I think it's in a Ned PoV, if only he would have picked up the hint in a reread as well, things might have gone better for him :rolleyes: .

The whole dagger thing was dicey to begin with, but a much needed plot device to set up the conflict. How the hell could LF know Cat would run into him somewhere along the thousand mile kingsroad? And then abduct him without the consent of the King, her husband, anyone. That little lie could have cost LF if Ned had time to investigate and if Cat sent a letter to Tyrion outlining her case against him.

[Evamitchelle]

The whole dagger thing was dicey to begin with, but a much needed plot device to set up the conflict. How the hell could LF know Cat would run into him somewhere along the thousand mile kingsroad? And then abduct him without the consent of the King, her husband, anyone. That little lie could have cost LF if Ned had time to investigate and if Cat sent a letter to Tyrion outlining her case against him.

I don't think LF himself can plan every little detail, his greatest strength is in adapting the circumstances to fit his need. He couldn't know that Cat and Tyrion would meet at the Crossroads Inn, maybe his only intention at this point was to exacerbate the tensions between Lannisters and Starks, and expect one random incident (like the one on the kingsroad with the direwolves) to ignite the whole thing. If it hadn't been Cat, it would have been someone else, there was already too much tension between the two Houses for the whole thing to blow over.

Other details I noticed on my recent re-read : Tom O'Sevens is the singer who "stole" one of Edmure's girls. And he madea song about it, something about a "floppy fish" iirc.

[Sword of the Mañana]

In GoT, Dany is in Khal Drogo's manse in Pentos and she sees "a red priest even fatter than Illyrio."

We know that Thoros of Myr was quite fat, could this red priest be him? Its a bit of a stretch, but I feel that its him.

I'm not sure if the timeline fits, if he could get back to Kings Landing in time for the tourney he fights in (in honor of Ned becoming Hand)

What really puzzles me is what would Thoros be doing there, and what implications, if any, that could have.

[trio]

I'm re-reading ACOK and I've come across a passage I never noticed before. When Tyrion is unconscious after his injury, he recalls an entire conversation with Tysha.

"I love you, Tyrion...I love your lips, I love your voice, and the words you say to me, and how you treat me gentle. I love your face."

And he's astounded that anyone would love his face.

I just found it terribly sad - considering what had just happened to his face.

[Corvinus85]

In GoT, Dany is in Khal Drogo's manse in Pentos and she sees "a red priest even fatter than Illyrio."

We know that Thoros of Myr was quite fat, could this red priest be him? Its a bit of a stretch, but I feel that its him.

I'm not sure if the timeline fits, if he could get back to Kings Landing in time for the tourney he fights in (in honor of Ned becoming Hand)

What really puzzles me is what would Thoros be doing there, and what implications, if any, that could have.

I don't think it was Thoros. For one, if he was fatter than Illryrio, then I doubt he could fight in a tourney.

Also, if I remember correctly, he was sent to Westeros a while ago, because the other red priests didn't really like him since he was a vain man.

Edit: Actually we know Thoros was in Westeros long before that, since he fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion. He was the first through the breach at Pyke

[Nukelavee]

I've always thought the peach Renly has was a clue to him and Renly, and his speech about it totally forshadowed his death.

(always means "after the second time i read the books)

Somebody else here, in another thread, caught this one. When Robb face Lord Frey, before the Wedding...Walder makes a point of saying "mayhaps" in a referance to the game of the crossing, Robbs's terms for the crossing, and in the middle of a speech about Robb's men being safe across the river at the lesser feast.

That's such a great detail, and the person who pointed it out was waaaaay more observant than I

[Evamitchelle]

I've always thought the peach Renly has was a clue to him and Renly, and his speech about it totally forshadowed his death.

(always means "after the second time i read the books)

Somebody else here, in another thread, caught this one. When Robb face Lord Frey, before the Wedding...Walder makes a point of saying "mayhaps" in a referance to the game of the crossing, Robbs's terms for the crossing, and in the middle of a speech about Robb's men being safe across the river at the lesser feast.

That's such a great detail, and the person who pointed it out was waaaaay more observant than I

I noticed the mayhaps thing on my re-read. It would have been a very nice element of foreshadowing if I'd caught it the first time.

[DocBean]

I was thrown off on my reread of Game of Thrones that Maester Luwin was the first to spot the Comet.

I always thought Dany was the first to spot it, after Drogo's death, and the birth of the dragons.

Which makes me think about how only death pays for life.

Drogo, Meri Maes Dur, and Ned are the deaths responsible for the birth of 3 dragons.

[Anaxilas]

I don't think LF himself can plan every little detail, his greatest strength is in adapting the circumstances to fit his need. He couldn't know that Cat and Tyrion would meet at the Crossroads Inn, maybe his only intention at this point was to exacerbate the tensions between Lannisters and Starks, and expect one random incident (like the one on the kingsroad with the direwolves) to ignite the whole thing. If it hadn't been Cat, it would have been someone else, there was already too much tension between the two Houses for the whole thing to blow over.

Other details I noticed on my recent re-read : Tom O'Sevens is the singer who "stole" one of Edmure's girls. And he madea song about it, something about a "floppy fish" iirc.

Put yourself in LF position there though. You tell a major lie concerning the attempted murder of their son who was thrown from a window in their own castle, then a cut-purse is sent to slit his throat, all under guest right. Obviously emotions are going to be charged. Now say Cat dosen't abduct Tyrion as the chances are so incredibly slim that they would ever run into eachother. Cat goes back to Winterfell, Tyrion continues on to KL. When Tyrion arrives, he is going to have to face up to Ned, but the situation will resolve itself nicely. First, Tyrion will have so many witnesses to say he never bets against Jaime. Second, King Robert can end the whole thing, saying the dagger was his. In any case, the situation seems likely to resolve itself and to endear Ned against LF, who not only told a lie, but a lie where his sons life was involved. Ned would have destroyed LF as a result.

I can imagine a different scenario where Ned arrests Tyrion when he enters KL and that is what sends Jaime and the Lannister troops after Ned's household guard. Blood has been spilt in the streets and cannot be taken back. Jaime becomes an outlaw, The Rock raises their banners because their honour has been damaged and Cersei is spurned by Robert. This could have been LF plan to destroy the Lannisters, not the Starks.

[Evamitchelle]

I can imagine a different scenario where Ned arrests Tyrion when he enters KL and that is what sends Jaime and the Lannister troops after Ned's household guard. Blood has been spilt in the streets and cannot be taken back. Jaime becomes an outlaw, The Rock raises their banners because their honour has been damaged and Cersei is spurned by Robert. This could have been LF plan to destroy the Lannisters, not the Starks.

Except that Cersei then kills Robert, Joffrey ascends to the throne and the Starks find themselves on the wrong side of the conflict as well. Cersei has wanted Robert Ned for quite a long time I think, and LF would have probably been aware of that. Littlefinger's plan might not have been to destroy one particular family/person though, but maybe just to start the war. My belief is that LF wanted a war to break out all along, which is why he had Jon Arryn murdered by Lysa as well.

[Anaxilas]

Except that Cersei then kills Robert, Joffrey ascends to the throne and the Starks find themselves on the wrong side of the conflict as well. Cersei has wanted Robert Ned for quite a long time I think, and LF would have probably been aware of that. Littlefinger's plan might not have been to destroy one particular family/person though, but maybe just to start the war. My belief is that LF wanted a war to break out all along, which is why he had Jon Arryn murdered by Lysa as well.

I agree about the last. But why would the scenario I detailed above lead to Cersei killing Robert and Joff ascending?

[Fire Eater]

Tyrion then finds out they are to meet a Griff on the road. Griff leads a group of sell swords. Griff is a knight from Westeros, although he had long been in Illyrio's service.

A quoatation from Tyrion 2 spoiler. Griff is definitely Jon Connington. They were told in Westeros that Lord Jon Connington drank himself to death in the Free Cities, but who would they have heard that from? Varys! Varys obviously lied about Connington's death.

[Corvinus85]

Another detail I found in AGOT, which relates to all the discussions and speculations about the Shadow Lands.

Among the statues that can be found in Vaes Dothrak, there are some which according to Jorah probably are from the Shadow Lands. They were so twisted and terrible that Dany could not look at them.

So... there be monsters in the Shadow Lands.

[Ser Pistus]

In the vein of "creatures going by other names", are manticores scorpions? The description of the manticore from near the end of A Clash of Kings in the box sounded like a scorpion.

"Dany caught a glimpse of a malign black face, almost human, and an arched tail dripping venom..."

I guess a scorpion does not have an almost human face. Plus there _are_ scorpions in Westeros. When Bronn describes the incoming Dornish banners, and Pod identifies them:

"Three black spiders?"

"They're scorpions, ser. House Qorgyle of Sandstone, three scorpions black on red."

[Black Sheep]

I was thrown off on my reread of Game of Thrones that Maester Luwin was the first to spot the Comet.

I always thought Dany was the first to spot it, after Drogo's death, and the birth of the dragons.

Which makes me think about how only death pays for life.

Drogo, Meri Maes Dur, and Ned are the deaths responsible for the birth of 3 dragons.

But later we find out that only the death of a king can be exchanged for the life of a dragon.

So maybe the three deaths are really Robert, Viserys and Drogo.

(You could argue that Ned has kings' blood in him, though...)

[Anaxilas]

A quoatation from Tyrion 2 spoiler. Griff is definitely Jon Connington. They were told in Westeros that Lord Jon Connington drank himself to death in the Free Cities, but who would they have heard that from? Varys! Varys obviously lied about Connington's death.

You might want to throw up some spoiler quotations or maybe a mod could. I for one have gone so long without any of the ADWD spoiler chapters, it would be a shame to ruin the surprise when the book is so near!

Another detail I found in AGOT, which relates to all the discussions and speculations about the Shadow Lands.

Among the statues that can be found in Vaes Dothrak, there are some which according to Jorah probably are from the Shadow Lands. They were so twisted and terrible that Dany could not look at them.

So... there be monsters in the Shadow Lands.

Very neat observation. Weird to think that Dany's dead baby was described similarly grotesque.

[king biters chamber pot]

"Dany caught a glimpse of a malign black face, almost human, and an arched tail dripping venom..."

I guess a scorpion does not have an almost human face. Plus there _are_ scorpions in Westeros. When Bronn describes the incoming Dornish banners, and Pod identifies them:

"Three black spiders?"

"They're scorpions, ser. House Qorgyle of Sandstone, three scorpions black on red."

a scorpion also kills one of Dany's follower people in the oasis ghost-town in the red waste.

"One woman was stung by a red scorpion but hers was the only death."

thus it isn't a continental term variation.

[Asha´s turnip]

In AGOT, when Dany tells Jorah to stop a few Dothraki men from raping a girl, Jorah states that she is like her brother, Rheagar. Wouldn't that be a weird thing to say if he really did abduct and rape Lyanna Stark? So isn't that a clue that Lyanna went with Rheagar willingly (and by saying that she went with him willingly I'm not saying they had a kid together, that's a whole other discussion)?

[Fire Eater]

In AFFC, Cersei believes the washerwoman shrunk several of her old gowns and at Baelor's Sept her dress feels tight. She is oblivious to the fact she is gaining weight from all the drinking, like someone else, Lysa Arryn(nee Tully), who went mad. Spoiler!

[Fire Eater]

In AGOT, when Dany tells Jorah to stop a few Dothraki men from raping a girl, Jorah states that she is like her brother, Rheagar. Wouldn't that be a weird thing to say if he really did abduct and rape Lyanna Stark? So isn't that a clue that Lyanna went with Rheagar willingly (and by saying that she went with him willingly I'm not saying they had a kid together, that's a whole other discussion)?

Good catch, the way Rhaegar is described, throughout Dany's chapters, he is spoken of as noble and honorable, cquite contrary to the claim that he kidnapped and raped Lyanna Stark. While Barristan the Bold says the Aerys II was mad, he says nothing of ill repute about Rhaegar.