Catelyn Tully hates Jon snow

[Xenophon]

Xenophen,

Catelyn goes personally because her hands are evidence of the attack. She was badly injured from the knife and without her and her injuries there the Lannisters could say the Starks are lying. They don't have photographs in Westeros.

Hmm, Ned seems to think the dagger is the proof, not her wounds. Which makes sense, I guess, as her wounds could be caused by anyone.

[Errant Bard]

When he hears that an assassin tried to murder Bran, it's not going to be that difficult to make the case that his fall wasn't accidental. And the knife itself is good evidence that someone rich and powerful was involved. At that point, the Lannisters are obvious suspects.

I guess it's a question of duty. Such matters have to be handled by the ones in command, and so on. Also to take orders from Ned directly. Probably a part was to see Ned and Sansa and Arya again (she says it at one point, right?) Then there's the simple fact that Catelyn is more intelligent and good at politics than Rodrick and Ned combined and knows it so she would want to be there.

[TheFrenchFish]

No. It had absolutely no influence of the timing of Cersei murdering Robert. On the other hand, Ned telling Cersei he knew about the incest (which, you'll note, has nothing to do with Cat) and giving her an ultimatum to get out of everyone's sight, now, that forced Cersei's hand.

Very well, it's speculation on my part but what of my quotes in the book? Surely you cannot deny Cat knew the Lannister would attack an undefended Riverrun and Tywin is attacking because of the kidnapping of Tyrion.

and Alexia, surely you've mistyped names before? I know the difference between Tyrion and Tywin hehe

[Errant Bard]

Very well, it's speculation on my part but what of my quotes in the book? Surely you cannot deny Cat knew the Lannister would attack an undefended Riverrun and Tywin is attacking because of the kidnapping of Tyrion.

Yes, see my second paragraph: they knew he would be provoked, but they intended to provoke him anyway, with a Lannister on trial. Better to have this Lannister captured and a war than this Lannister not captured, and a war, plus random effects of letting go someone who can guess you know about his conspiracy.

And if Robert doesn't die, nor Ned, Tywin was finished after this attack.

[Alexia]

and Alexia, surely you've mistyped names before? I know the difference between Tyrion and Tywin hehe

I know, I just couldn't resist teasing you. I wish Tywin was the one she'd arrested! :)

[Errant Bard]

Heh, you know, what if she had arrested the real culprits? What if it had been Jaime or Joff sitting there, seeing her coming back sneakily from Kl and asking her why, all unctuous-like?

[TheFrenchFish]

btw going back to this:

No. It had absolutely no influence on the timing of Cersei murdering Robert. On the other hand, Ned telling Cersei he knew about the incest (which, you'll note, has nothing to do with Cat) and giving her an ultimatum to get out of everyone's sight, now, that forced Cersei's hand.

Did not Varys tell Eddard that they were planning to murder Robert during the melee of the hand's Tournament? I mean....that is before Eddard confronts Cersei on the incest. Cersei wanted Robert dead before Eddard told her he knew her secret; however I agree the Tyrion kidnapping (almost typed Tywin again grr) had little to do with it.

[Xenophon]

I guess it's a question of duty. Such matters have to be handled by the ones in command, and so on. Also to take orders from Ned directly. Probably a part was to see Ned and Sansa and Arya again (she says it at one point, right?) Then there's the simple fact that Catelyn is more intelligent and good at politics than Rodrick and Ned combined and knows it so she would want to be there.

I think so. Which is why I don't give her a complete pass on kidnapping Tyrion. By traveling to KL herself, when it would be risky for her to be seen, she set up the situation which eventually led her to kidnap Tyrion. And I don't see any particularly good reasons why she had to take that risk. I mean the Starks can't believe everything has to be done personally, can they?

[Errant Bard]

I mean....that is before Eddard confronts Cersei on the incest.

And that's before Cat kidnaps Tyrion, fancy that.

But I was just saying that Ned's utimatum is what forced Cersei's hand. It forced her to kill Robert before Ned could ever speak to him again. Without that, she could have taken her time. And I wonder in what world Cersei would do anything to save Tyrion's ass.

I think so. Which is why I don't give her a complete pass on kidnapping Tyrion. By traveling to KL herself, when it would be risky for her to be seen, she set up the situation which eventually led her to kidnap Tyrion. And I don't see any particularly good reasons why she had to take that risk. I mean the Starks can't believe everything has to be done personally, can they?

There are some matters which are better done personally. Stuff between husband and wife, for example ;)

But I guess she set it up, in so far as anyone can set up anything dependent on freak coincidences happening in the future without knowing the future. That's Catelyn big flaw, not knowing the future, and the future being out to screw her. (contrary to, like, Arya, Jon and Dany)

[TheFrenchFish]

That would have been a bloody fight in that inn if they would have tried to apprehend Jaime in that inn!

Yes I see your point, however you are asking to look beyond Martin's writings and while I do all the same thing all the time, I think with the limited amount of info. we have, we can only deduce that Tywin would not have acted so boldly if his son was not kidnapped. At least for the time being.

edit: still referring to Tywin attacking because of Tyrion's kidnapping. I agree it had little to nothing to do with Cersei murdering Robert.

[Jon Lannister]

About the R+L=J, because if Robert knew there was a last Targaryen in the realm, he would want him dead

[Asarlai]

But I was just saying that Ned's utimatum is what forced Cersei's hand. It forced her to kill Robert before Ned could ever speak to him again. Without that, she could have taken her time.

Correct. Actually, if Tyrion wasn't kidnapped, Ned wouldn't have been attacked by Jaime, wouldn't have tried to send his daughters away, and Sansa wouldn't have said the thing about Joffrey that made Ned realize. So, in a way...

[tarantella]

It is unreasonable. Because Robert is also known for getting back at people who mess with him and his kingdom. And he has the whole realm as his army. And anyone knows Tywin knows that.

Robert owes three million dragons to Tywin, and the court is full of Lannisters. And didn't Tywin unleash Gregor Clegane on the riverlands well before the king died? He obviously isn't afraid of Robert.

[Alcatur]

To the main topic of this thread:

Catelyn had actually perfectly good reasons to discourage Robb from naming Jon as heir, and she even points them out. Noone knows when Jon was conceived, and

the story we hear at Davos sample chapter in White Harbour claims ot was before Eddards marriage with Cat - note that she has been in this city and may know that story. This would make Jon presumably older of two brothers, and thus when legitimized at least his children could be the rightful heirs to Winterfell before Robbs children (to avoid beautiful legal/logical loop with Robb making himself not rightful heir...).

She states that to her son - he may trust Jon and they are like brothers, but their descendants may have different relations. Thus Robb would create dangerous potential political rivals with powerful weapon.

[Errant Bard]

Robert owes three million dragons to Tywin, and the court is full of Lannisters. And didn't be unleash Gregor Clegane on the riverlands well before the king died? Tywin obviously isn't afraid of Robert.

Ah, yes, the Gregor Clagane thing is a good example, because the Crown, via Ned (Robert was out hunting at the time), did in fact send people to kill Clegane. And Tywin denied having links with what Clegane did: Gregor was considered as a rogue bandit.

@Alcatur: use spoiler tags or don't spoil, please.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

This is actually funny. How dare she stay with her dying father! Horrid woman, you have children to take care of. How dare she maintain her own religious faith instead of converting to her husband's religion! Horrid woman, don't you know that you don't have a right to choose your own religious faith. How dare she favor Tully interests! Horrid woman, don't you know what loyalty mea... Er, ahem, wasn't that the entire point of the Tully-Stark marriage alliance?

:lmao:

Sooo . . . let's consider a hypothetical. Suppose Cat wasn't the mother of Bran and Rickon, or the chatelaine of Winterfell, or even female. Let's say he/she was a sworn member of a Northern King's guard, who was charged with guarding the King's heirs and the King's fortress. And on top of that, he/she was the appointed guardian of Bran, the underage acting Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North. And he/she left the ancient fortress, lights on and door unlocked, figuratively speaking, to take care of personal business, putting the interests of her own house ahead of the interests of the King's. Would criticism of his/her choice seemed comical then?

Conversely, if she were a he, a sworn knight, would anyone think twice if he/she made the choice to leave her dying father to protect the King's interests? Isn't the death's bed watch a duty usually reserved for women? How is her choice to do that less stereotypical than her returning to her children and home, keeping in mind that her children were the King's heirs and her home the seat of the Stark family, Kings of the North, for thousands of years?

Or let's put it another way. When an army marches to the front, shouldn't there be someone with authority guarding the rear? Wouldn't it have been Cat's natural role as the Lady of Winterfell to do that?

And I do think that the way she favored the south over the north colored many of her decisions, like sending both her daughters to Kings Landing. Look how well that turned out.

In short, Cat had not only a personal, but an important non-gender-specific strategic decision to make, and I think she made the wrong one. But yes, one that advanced the plot, and since I like Bran's story line I should STFU.

Back on topic, I don't like her for being a bitch to Jon, either. :lmao: She had 14 years to heal from the insult to her honor. She had three sons and two daughters; she shouldn't have been concerned about Jon being a successor. Until she and her husband managed to lose the other kids (gross simplification and exaggeration, I know) that is.

And nothing any character has done or will do in this series could be as stupid as Eddard letting Cersei know that he knew her little secret.

edited for clarity (I hope)

[Xenophon]

There are some matters which are better done personally. Stuff between husband and wife, for example ;)

But I guess she set it up, in so far as anyone can set up anything dependent on freak coincidences happening in the future without knowing the future. That's Catelyn big flaw, not knowing the future, and the future being out to screw her. (contrary to, like, Arya, Jon and Dany)

Yeah, I don't really blame her at all. But I do think she took a risk that she didn't need to take because she wanted to see her husband again (and probably hoped to see her children too). That hardly qualifies as a character flaw, but it does come back to bite her in the ass, when she runs into Tyrion at the inn.

Edit. Now that I think about it, how did she intend to avoid running into Tyrion on her way back to Winterfell? There's only one road, and they'd both be using it. Is this ever mentioned?

[Errant Bard]

Sooo . . . let's consider a hypothetical. Suppose Cat wasn't the mother of Bran and Rickon, or the chatelaine of Winterfell, or even female. Let's say he/she was a sworn member of a Northern King's guard, who was charged with guarding the King's heirs and the King's fortress. And on top of that, he/she was the appointed guardian of Bran, the underage acting Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North. And he/she left the ancient fortress, lights on and door unlocked, figuratively speaking, to take care of personal business, putting the interests of her own house ahead of the interests of the King's. Would criticism of his/her choice seemed comical then?

You mean, like Ned did, or Rhaegar did, or about anyone in war did, including Tywin, Brynden or Rickard Stark?

It's true that Catelyn's super powers are strong and so her presence in the nursery would ensure the perfect safety of everyone in case, say, Theon greyjoy decided to raid Winterfell, so staying with her father the few days it takes him to die is an entire waste of superpowers.

Now that I think about it, how did she intend to avoid running into Tyrion on her way back to Winterfell? There's only one road, and they'd both be using it. Is this ever mentioned?

Nope, never mentioned. But then again this whole sequence is not too well thought out. For one thing they should never have met: Cat should have been home weeks before Tyrion even reached Winterfell. For the timeline to work, Tyrion must almost travel at the speed of light, and Catelyn has to wander aimlessly for months in the Riverlands. Trust me, it sucks trying to make sense of it.

[Datepalm]

Sooo . . . let's consider a hypothetical. Suppose Cat wasn't the mother of Bran and Rickon, or the chatelaine of Winterfell, or even female. Let's say he/she was a sworn member of a Northern King's guard, who was charged with guarding the King's heirs and the King's fortress. And on top of that, he/she was the appointed guardian of Bran, the underage acting Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North. And he/she left the ancient fortress, lights on and door unlocked, figuratively speaking, to take care of personal business, putting the interests of her own house ahead of the interests of the King's. Would criticism of his/her choice seemed comical then?

Its an interesting comparison, but I think here again Catelyn can't know the future. Winterfell, to the best of her knowledge, is the safest place in the realm just then. Theres plenty of smart people there to manage...taking in the harvest and being nice to the Walders. In the Riverlands is where crucial decisions are being made and where the inexperienced young ruler needs non hot-headed advice. Staying with Hoster is nice, but theres other reasons. If Robb was actually fighting up north, I think theres no doubt that she would take off in that direction in a heartbeat.

Yeah, I don't really blame her at all. But I do think she took a risk that she didn't need to take because she wanted to see her husband again (and probably hoped to see her children too). That hardly qualifies as a character flaw, but it does come back to bite her in the ass, when she runs into Tyrion at the inn.

Though, come on, the text always comes back to bite her in the ass. Everyone else pulls off way, way dumber stunts, and it always works out somehow. Really, Arya should have been gruesomely killed at Harrenhal and Tyrion dumped in a small grave by Varys and Littlefinger in a rare moment of camraderie the moment he started dabbling in KL politics , and lets not get started on Jon and Dany. Catelyn whole story seems to exist on a slightly different level of realism from a lot of the other characters. She's one of the few thats actually gritty. OTOH, it means Cat Can't Win.

I don't know if its that, or its because she's a woman, or a mother, or so damn sad and practical all the time, or never killed anyone with a battle axe, but what really bugs me about the complaints about Cat isn't that people claim she's a bitch or an idiot or whatever, but that these flaws make her beyond the pale as a character. In this series. I mean, I argue Tywin is hysterical freudian freak of a moron all the time, but I think that makes him, y'know, interesting. Cat has her flaws. I love that Cat has her flaws. I love that she kinda hates Jon - and she does, just a bit, and it is mean and irrational, and that makes her flawed and hurt and human and interesting, dammit, and exactly the sort of think I like reading about. Basically, I resent that I find myself arguing that Cat was totally justified in being mean to Jon (though, yeah, in term of westeros she was a bloody saint) when I really want to celebrate her being mean to Jon, the same way I celebrate how needy Tyrion is or how violent Arya is or how the Hound is such a sweetie even though he'll ride down and murder children at the drop of a hat and that makes him OMG so complex and interesting. Blah.

[tarantella]

Ah, yes, the Gregor Clagane thing is a good example, because the Crown, via Ned (Robert was out hunting at the time), did in fact send people to kill Clegane. And Tywin denied having links with what Clegane did: Gregor was considered as a rogue bandit.

But Tywin presumably didn't know Ned Stark was sitting in Robert's place at the time. And his denial didn't fool anyone; they all knew Clegane was one of his bannermen. Though I guess it wouldn't be too hard to convince people that a guy like Gregor Clegane could just go out of control and start killing, it would seem pretty curious that he decided to go after the Tully lands specifically.

Anyway, we already know Robert's at least partly under Tywin's thumb, since he's not willing to punish Jaime for killing a bunch of Stark men and attacking his Hand in the streets. It's not too much of a stretch to think that Tywin isn't too worried about Robert's opinion, at least up to a point.