Catelyn Tully hates Jon snow

[Elrick]

The answer to the first question is easy: she thinks Jon is spawn of adultery. Yet she loves Ned - the doer of the deed as far as she knows - but hates the blameless product. Which reveals to us early on that Catelyn has two things in her: (a) An unlikeable bitch side; and (B) The capacity to hold a long ass grudge. Sorry Freys.

The second question is complicated and I'd refer you to the R+L equals J threads.

Thats just it though. Jon isn't a spawn of adultry because Ned didn't marry Cat yet. At least if my memory serves correctly on this one. Its still a reminder, however that Ned loved someone before he loved her and that was why she despised bastards. Look at on the bright side at least Cat isn't Cersie and go and have Jon murdered.

[Errant Bard]

Perhaps "stupidity" translated into English is stronger than in French?

No, not at all. But of course "Sa stupidité est la majeure raison de la chute de sa maison et du départ de la guerre" is not what I would call weak criticism.

Regardless, her foolish kidnapping of Tyrion is really what started the chain of events that led to this dreadful war

No, not at all. What starts it is Jaime sitting on that throne, and the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys, then Joffrey not being a Baratheon, then Jon Arryn investigating and being killed by LF to attract attention, then Ned following the exact same reasoning, then Robert dying when everyone knew the truth about it.

Tyrion is, what, a small side-event for the Riverlands. The war is about the Throne, not Tyrion.

You cannot dwell on "what if".

I'm pretty sure we can, and do all the time.

Thats just it though. Jon isn't a spawn of adultry because Ned didn't marry Cat yet. At least if my memory serves correctly on this one.

It does not serve you correctly. Ned weds Cat before going to war. Very shortly after Jon Arryn calls his banners. Jon is conceived during the war (which, I must point, is only natural if he's the spawn of Lyanna: no steamy dragon-prince sex before actually being kidnapped, yeah?)

[David Selig]

Perhaps "stupidity" translated into English is stronger than in French? Regardless, her foolish kidnapping of Tyrion is really what started the chain of events that led to this dreadful war. You cannot dwell on "what if". Sure the Lannisters and Starks were headed to war and may have reached that point without her involvement just like we are sure that Japan and America would have gotten into WW II even if Pearl harbor wasn't attcked...but it was attacked yes? She kidnapped an innocent man on very shaky premise. As a result, Lannister slaughters many people of innocence in Riverlands and starts a war. That's simply terrible on her part and so she is a shrew. But going back to the topic, perhaps you supporters of Catelyn can answer my questions:

1) How would she receive Jon Snow now as undead Cat?

2) How do you think she feels toward Gendry?

and damn her for her treatment of Brienne who I like too :)

P.S. I do not hold her entirely responsible for house of Stark, just a nice contributor shall we say. Do not lump me in with that category that Eddard and Robb are not resposible please.

P.S.S. While I do enjoy Jon's character in the series, by far my favorites are Davos and Jaime. So not all Catelyn haters fall into your cliche Monsieur Selig.

So why don't you hate Jaime for his part in starting the war? His incest and pushing Bran off the wall were more instrumental in creating the whole mess than anything Cat did. Not to mention that the twincest was easily a much more stupid act than Cat arresting Tyrion.

Un-Cat is a completely different persona after her bout of madness at the Red Wedding and the resurrection as far as I am concerned, so I don't take her into account when discussing Catelyn.

[nothatso]

Huh?

are yal saying ned is not the father?

so why does arya and jon and ned look so much alike (with out to many spoilers please) i a filtering the above posts :)

Traits are inherited from both parents. Which traits they get is sort of a percent chance based on how dominant or recessive the traits of each parent are. If R+L=J Jon would be half stark, If Ned were his father... he'd still only be half stark, as all of his siblings are half Stark and half Tully.

[Errant Bard]

so why does arya and jon and ned look so much alike (with out to many spoilers please) i a filtering the above posts :)

Speculation is no spoiler, but heh, let's just say that Ned has siblings, and one of them has been said to resemble Arya (who looks like Ned and Jon), too.

[Boots]

Cat hates Jon cause she's a prim and proper lady who probably hates cripples, dwarves, bastards, and broken things. She was just a jerk with the "It should have been you." While I admit she does make some sense here and there "Anyone who Grey Wind doesn't like shouldn't be near you." I still don't like her terribly much. I remember her insulting Edmure for being one of the few lords to actually care much about his peasants. I like Edmure quite a bit.

I don't hold Cat responsible for the fall of House Stark. It's Littlefinger's and by extention Brandon Stark for pissing LF off! Hah.

[tarantella]

You really can't deny that Catelyn capturing Tyrion was a serious blunder that gave the Lannisters the pretext to begin the conflict that would snowball into a massive civil war. Granted, she trusted Littlefinger's word as an old friend, an understandable thing, but even that bit of "evidence" didn't prove that Tyrion was the culprit. And when you capture the son of the richest man on the continent who also happens to be your family's greatest political rival, you'd damn well better be sure you got the right guy.

However, Ned's actions in King's Landing were equally foolish (yeah, just go around openly carrying out the same investigations your murdered predecessor did, right before he was murdered! And tell your enemy everything you know! Brilliant.) And Robb, well, we know what Robb did. So I do feel Cat gets blamed a bit too much for the Starks' downfall. The blame is shared.

She is an interesting character, if not that likable sometimes, so there's that. And I thought her end was sad and moving, all the more reason I thought bringing her back from the dead (sort of) was a strange idea on GRRM's part. I guess we'll see how that goes.

[Errant Bard]

You really can't deny that Catelyn capturing Tyrion was a serious blunder

I can. Maybe in hindsight it's a bad move, but on the spot, it's a good one. Ned had told her to prepare for war, anyway, I remind you, and he was hand of the king and had the ear of the king.

What you're asking here is for Catelyn to know that Robert and Ned will be deposed and won't be able to tell Tywin to calm the fuck off. not possible.

[TheFrenchFish]

No, not at all. What starts it is Jaime sitting on that throne, and the murder of Aegon and Rhaenys, then Joffrey not being a Baratheon, then Jon Arryn investigating and being killed by LF to attract attention, then Ned following the exact same reasoning, then Robert dying when everyone knew the truth about it.

Tyrion is, what, a small side-event for the Riverlands. The war is about the Throne, not Tyrion.

You can find a reason for anything if you go so far back. No, this is simple in my eyes. The kidnapping of Tyrion is the catalyst (hope that is the right word). You bring interesting viewpoint here don't get me wrong, but I think you are looking to far back while I am looking closer. Different perspectives at this topic.

Oh and you can dwell on "What Ifs" when there is so much time between books! Touche :)

So why don't you hate Jaime for his part in starting the war? His incest and pushing Bran off the wall were more instrumental in creating the whole mess than anything Cat did. Not to mention that the twincest was easily a much more stupid act than Cat arresting Tyrion.

Un-Cat is a completely different persona after her bout of madness at the Red Wedding and the resurrection as far as I am concerned, so I don't take her into account when discussing Catelyn.

I really did hate him. It is just his growth as a character trying to redeem himself that I find so compelling. Perhaps you are right to suggest that is does seem a bit hypocritical I endear to Jaime who did/does monstrous things and dislike Catelyn for not being nearly as evil in her actions. The only answer I can give to that is I see Jaime attempting to redeem himself (though he still desires Cersei..hmm) while Catelyn is intractable.

Can we judge Undead Cat with Cat? Good point but I beleive there is much of the "old Cat" in the Undead One still.

[Errant Bard]

You can find a reason for anything if you go so far back. No, this is simple in my eyes. The kidnapping of Tyrion is the catalyst.

No, the Catalyst is Ned trying to depose Cersei, and the Tyrion kidnapping has very very little to do with that. Remember that before that, the attack on the Riverlands was not endorsed by anyone. Everyone knew it was Tywin, but he could not actually defy the king by doing it openly. It's just not the cause of the war, I cannot see it otherwise. You remove Tyrion, everything happens the same. You remove the Ned power-grab or the Robert death, no war.

The only answer I can give to that is I see Jaime attempting to redeem himself (though he still desires Cersei..hmm) while Catelyn is intractable.

Ah, but Catelyn has nothing to redeem herself for.

As an aside, for me Jaime never actually tries to redeem anyone: he always wanted to be Arthur Dayne, that is the very reason he slew Aerys. He always was faithful in love AND a hothead who did not think, that is why he pushed Bran, attacked Ned, trusted Cersei (and remained faithful) and freed Tyrion. He always was slightly hypocritical, wanting to be a good guy, honour and all that, but in the end taking the practical road and sacrificing some oath or relationship (what Brienne will have to do now). What he does now is no different, he's just a bit older and wiser, and dumped by his family.

[Datepalm]

Cat hates Jon cause she's a prim and proper lady who probably hates cripples, dwarves, bastards, and broken things. She was just a jerk with the "It should have been you." While I admit she does make some sense here and there "Anyone who Grey Wind doesn't like shouldn't be near you." I still don't like her terribly much. I remember her insulting Edmure for being one of the few lords to actually care much about his peasants. I like Edmure quite a bit.

Actually Cat is like the nicest person we meet in the books, in terms of sympathy for commoners, bastards and broken things. (Tyrion himself, by the by, is kind of a jerk when its not serving him in some way or when he dosen't see a clear mirror to himself and thus manages to turn kindness into an act of self pity.) Mya, Brienne, Tyroshi oarsmen, random innkeepers and people her son really, really wasn't supposed to marry... she's nice to them, she notices them, she remembers their names, she talks to them like they're humans and finds out who they are and feels sad for their lot in life. She just thinks - correctly, if anything - that Edmure is being too soft hearted. She still thinks its the right thing to do and lets it go on though. (oh, wait, I forgot - thats probably her being stupid again.)

Another note, is that Ned didn't just bring Jon home, he actually frightened her over it. Frightened Catelyn. This the woman who rode about three times across the continent, who tried to yell down Stannis and Renly, who fought off an assassin with her bare hands, who slit a attackers throat with a dinner knife in the mountains. Frightened from something her husband said. I can't even imagine what that was, tbh.

[tarantella]

I can. Maybe in hindsight it's a bad move, but on the spot, it's a good one. Ned had told her to prepare for war, anyway, I remind you, and he was hand of the king and had the ear of the king.

What you're asking here is for Catelyn to know that Robert and Ned will be deposed and won't be able to tell Tywin to calm the fuck off. not possible.

Sure, Catelyn had no way of knowing that Robert would be killed, Ned imprisoned, or any of that. But considering how notorious Tywin is for getting back at people who mess with him or his family, I don't think that's too unreasonable. And I interpreted Ned's "prepare for war" as something like "go back to Winterfell and hole up until it's time to act", which would have been the better course of action if Ned hadn't royally screwed up in KL anyway.

[Xenophon]

On a side note, I've never quite understood why it would be so awful if Tyrion spotted her and reported that she'd been in KL, or for that matter why she decided to go in secret in the first place. I guess it would be bad if she were seen on her way back after having kept her presence there a secret, but was it worth arresting him, an action which she knew would cause Tywin to go crazy? And why the secret trip to KL? The Lannisters might have suspected why she was there, but they couldn't have stopped her. Or if it was so important that she not be seen, why not just send Ser Rodrick? They could have invented any number of reasons for him to go. I mean, if they wanted to be really ballsy, they could have waited for Tyrion to come back from the wall and insisted on sending extra guards to accompany him on his return to KL.

[Errant Bard]

Sure, Catelyn had no way of knowing that Robert would be killed, Ned imprisoned, or any of that. But considering how notorious Tywin is for getting back at people who mess with him or his family, I don't think that's too unreasonable.

It is unreasonable. Because Robert is also known for getting back at people who mess with him and his kingdom. And he has the whole realm as his army. And anyone knows Tywin knows that.

On a side note, I've never quite understood why it would be so awful if Tyrion spotted her and reported that she'd been in KL, or for that matter why she decided to go in secret in the first place. I guess it would be bad if she were seen on her way back after having kept her presence there a secret, but was it worth arresting him, an action which she knew would cause Tywin to go crazy? And why the secret trip to KL? The Lannisters might have suspected why she was there, but they couldn't have stopped her.

It's that "conspiracy against the throne by the Lannisters" thing, with Lysa's message "for Cat's eyes only". Of course you don't want a guy part of a conspiracy to overthrow the regime to see you being sneaky on his turf, that's recipe for being captured or killed shortly, you or your husband. That's what happened to Jon Arryn and Bran Stark, after all, or so you think.

And why not send Rodrick? Because, as proved, Rodrick cannot call in favours, or talk to the right persons, or get the right info, or convince Ned... and Rodrick not only wasn't there when the catspaw attacked, but he isn't told about the conspiracy, Lysa's message and all.

[TheFrenchFish]

No, the Catalyst is Ned trying to depose Cersei, and the Tyrion kidnapping has very very little to do with that. Remember that before that, the attack on the Riverlands was not endorsed by anyone. Everyone knew it was Tywin, but he could not actually defy the king by doing it openly. It's just not the cause of the war, I cannot see it otherwise. You remove Tyrion, everything happens the same. You remove the Ned power-grab or the Robert death, no war.

My friend, the war in the Riverlands started because Tywin is defending his family's honor. I do not disagree with you that there would have likely been war soon or later, but the Tywin kidnapping was a catalyst and dare I say, made Cersei murder Robert faster than she would have liked?

Anyhow, page 612 of Game of Thrones: Tywin says "The honor of our house was at stake. I had no choice but to ride. No man sheds Lannister blood with impunity."

I think that's clear for me...and Catelyn KNEW this would happen!

Pg 364-365

Brynden: "if the Lannisters should march, Winterfell is remote and the Vale walled up beyond its mountains, but Riverrun lies right in their path."

"I'd had the same fear," Catelyn admitted.

Whether you agree with me or not, this is why I think "kidnapping" Tyrion was a foolish and perhaps even a stupid (said it again) action. if you know an undefended Riverrlands will get attacked before the North has even begun to muster, why are you doing this?

I'm sorry to talk about a different topic, but this is quite a fascinating discussion!

edit: SP

[Xenophon]

And why not send Rodrick? Because, as proved, Rodrick cannot call in favours, or talk to the right persons, or get the right info, or convince Ned... and Rodrick not only wasn't there when the catspaw attacked, but he isn't told about the conspiracy, Lysa's message and all.

You're misremembering that. Cat tells Rodrick, Theon, Luwin, and Robb all about Lysa's message and her suspicions.

That's why I'm so confused about why she goes personally. We hear why she doesn't send Robb (must be a Stark at Winterfell), but we never hear why she rules out the others as messengers. I don't see why she couldn't send Ser Rodrick. He wouldn't need to call in any favors, because he wouldn't have to skulk around. It wouldn't be that suspicious for him to show up in KL with some extra men for Ned's guard, or even just some presents from Winterfell.

[Errant Bard]

You're misremembering that. Cat tells Rodrick, Theon, Luwin, and Robb all about Lysa's message and her suspicions.

Ah, maybe, I didn't remember Rodrick being in.

In that case, yeah, there are less reasons, but there's still the convincing of Ned, the superiority of Cat and the authority Rodrick does not have. And the duty to do such things yourself, I guess. Stark-like.

But I admit I'm looking for justifications here. It does indeed sound kinda weak.

[Alexia]

My friend, the war in the Riverlands started because Tywin is defending his family's honor. I do not disagree with you that there would have likely been war soon or later, but the Tywin kidnapping was a catalyst and dare I say, made Cersei murder Robert faster than she would have liked?

Tywin wasn't kidnapped :lol: but aside from that, no it had nothing to do with Cersei's decision to murder Robert. That came about because Ned told her he was going to tell Robert everything, and Ned found out because of Sansa's babbling about having babies with beautiful blond hair.

Xenophen,

Catelyn goes personally because her hands are evidence of the attack. She was badly injured from the knife and without her and her injuries there the Lannisters could say the Starks are lying. They don't have photographs in Westeros.

[Errant Bard]

the Tywin kidnapping was a catalyst and dare I say, made Cersei murder Robert faster than she would have liked?

No. It had absolutely no influence on the timing of Cersei murdering Robert. On the other hand, Ned telling Cersei he knew about the incest (which, you'll note, has nothing to do with Cat) and giving her an ultimatum to get out of everyone's sight, now, that forced Cersei's hand.

Of course Tywin would reply, but with a king and a hand, he would be repressed, and a trial would have taken place, where, since Cat believed Lysa, the Lannisters would have had to be destroyed anyway. A war against the Lannisters was inevitable, given the info they had, it was just a matter of sooner or later, but it would be a war between the crown and the Lannisters, not between the Starks, the golden Baratheons, the Red Baratheons, the Krakens, and the crown.

[Xenophon]

In that case, yeah, there are less reasons, but there's still the convincing of Ned, the superiority of Cat and the authority Rodrick does not have.

I guess, but how hard is it really going to be to convince Ned? He's already seen Lysa's message. When he hears that an assassin tried to murder Bran, it's not going to be that difficult to make the case that his fall wasn't accidental. And the knife itself is good evidence that someone rich and powerful was involved. At that point, the Lannisters are obvious suspects.