Boltons...

[Bronn is God]

Ramsay is a fuck up. There is no point in denying it. Roose is suave, sophisticated and teems with bad ass motherfuckery. Ramsay is just on a non-stop meth trip.

Roose Bolton is probably my second favorite character in the series. Sure, he killed Robb, but Robb fucked up. Killing his own bannerman, marrying the Westerling girl... Roose had enough, and Winterfell was gone, what loyalties remained? The Red Wedding was the perfect opportunity to get rid of King Robb and his lackey's and take the North for himself.

I really, really hope Roose makes it to the end of the series (and becomes King of the North), but I have very serious doubts to that...

[Gurkhal]

To make it short I throw in with Bronn is God, although I hope that Roose ends as Warden of the North rather than king. I also think that Ferrous makes a good case for how Robb undermined his own own position. The only part that I don't lay at Robb's feet is that I think that he handeled the Karstark incident properly.

But either way I don't see how people needs to be noble to be "nobles". Ser Gregor is a knight and he isn't very knightly at all, same goes for several other knights. In fact there are pretty few knights that I think would actually qualify has having many knightly qualities - Brienne being one of those few.

[Lost Time]

Boltons are just slightly below the Freys in who I hate the most in this story. And we'll be seeing how insane they are in ADWD once we delve into what really goes on in their castle...

Roose and his bastard will hopefully be meeting some very, very painful ends before the story is over.

[Logen Ninefingers]

Roose is an unpleasant chap, most definitely, but he is also intelligent enough to rein those tendencies in when it suits him. He's just a complete pragmatist with a degree of sadism thrown in. Ramsay is a bit of a monstrous caricature to be honest. Don't like either of them though and yeah, hope they both end up dead somewhere not too far along the line.

[iamthedave]

I developed quite a bit of respect for Roose during his scenes in Harrenhal. But is he a nice fella? Oh no. I wouldn't say he's evil as such, he reminds me of Tywin a little. Though that may change once we find out more about the goings on in the Dreadfort.

Ramsay, though... that one's a bad apple. I think he scores quite highly on the Gregor scale.

[Ferrous]

I developed quite a bit of respect for Roose during his scenes in Harrenhal. But is he a nice fella? Oh no. I wouldn't say he's evil as such, he reminds me of Tywin a little. Though that may change once we find out more about the goings on in the Dreadfort.

Ramsay, though... that one's a bad apple. I think he scores quite highly on the Gregor scale.

Gregor scores quite highly on the Ramsay scale.

[Kaitscralt]

People like the Bolton's because Roose is written as a cool and intriguing character. If Walder Frey was written as a cool character then people would like him as well.

[Asha´s turnip]

Roose also served Ned loyally and well in two wars. He was also in a position where he was one of Ned's advisors.

Robb marrying Jeyne did more damage then just losing the Frey alliance. It created a precedence for Robb breaking agreements with his bannermen when it suits him.

It wasn't the only mistake he made either.

Given that Bolton and Starks are historic enemies, given that Robb Stark is a leader of a rebellion, given that it is now impossible for Robb to win this rebellion, the obvious move for Bolton would be to leave the rebellion, and obviously the advancement in power made this move even easier.

If Robb hadn't married Jeyne, than his position is still winnable as the Iron Islanders would not be able to hold on to the North for long. Marrying Jeyne however meant that his rebellion was screwed.

Well, perhaps your right, I did read through all the books very quickly and I´m only now taking it easier and seeing more details and thinking things through.

But don´t you think that given the chance, Roose would´ve betrayed Ned as well (given the chance meaning an undenfended North, and, I admit, wavering support)? The fact that he was an advisor could be a case of keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

I really, really hope Roose makes it to the end of the series (and becomes King of the North)

I really hope the opposite; him dying in ADWD and losing everything. Even if Robb was being stupid, I don't think he deserved what he got. Besides, I don't think Roose would be a good ruler.

[Ferrous]

Well, perhaps your right, I did read through all the books very quickly and I´m only now taking it easier and seeing more details and thinking things through.

But don´t you think that given the chance, Roose would´ve betrayed Ned as well (given the chance meaning an undenfended North, and, I admit, wavering support)? The fact that he was an advisor could be a case of keep your friends close and your enemies closer.

I really hope the opposite; him dying in ADWD and losing everything. Even if Robb was being stupid, I don't think he deserved what he got. Besides, I don't think Roose would be a good ruler.

It's hard to tell if Roose would have betrayed Ned because Ned never got into a such a bad situation when Roose would consider betraying him. If Aerys was going to win the war, Roose may have come to terms with Aerys. He would have been an advisor because the Boltons are the second house of the North and Roose is supplying a relatively significant part of his army.

I don't think Robb deserved to die but he knew the risks when he became a rebel. He did deserved to die a better death then what he did, even Ned got an execution afterall and definetly deserved better treatment of his corpes but I think that was more Freys idea with Roose joining the bandwagon as it was in his best interests.

[Noroldis]

I used to hate Roose, but my opinion of him has mellowed somewhat over the last years. As Ferrous pointed out, it was Robb who made the critical mistakes that doomed his rebellion (marrying Jeyne, the botched order to Edmure), and I can't fault Roose for wanting out of what had obviously become a losing cause led by a king unwilling to even consider bending the knee.

As for Ramsay, while I admire to a point his quick thinking and cunning that enabled him to survive and then to overcome the Starks, I can't forget that is a man who allowed his personal servant to perform necrophilia. :stillsick:

[Nukelavee]

Here's a question...What would Ned have had to say about Roose, or the Boltons? Take it a step further, and you have something else that doesn't quite sit right, with me, anyways - Cat and Roose. Why didn't Cat have more insight to offer Robb into the men he was relying on as leaders?

No - I'm not dumping hate on Cat, because, hey, we don't know that there was any info that should have put the Starks on their guard.

One the one hand, maybe Roose never showed signs, ever, of possibly being a danger, because he was super clever and subtle about any "evil" he committed or considered. On the other hand, history. Bolton sounds like it was ALWAYS the major threat to the Starks, and the most likely House to hold the North after the Starks.

Still - I wonder what Ned thought of Roose?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

I developed quite a bit of respect for Roose during his scenes in Harrenhal. But is he a nice fella? Oh no. I wouldn't say he's evil as such, he reminds me of Tywin a little. Though that may change once we find out more about the goings on in the Dreadfort.

Ramsay, though... that one's a bad apple. I think he scores quite highly on the Gregor scale.

Gregor scores quite highly on the Ramsay scale.

Hahahaha this made me laugh. :lol:

[Bronn is God]

People like the Bolton's because Roose is written as a cool and intriguing character. If Walder Frey was written as a cool character then people would like him as well.

This is true. There is nothing really intriguing or infact that interesting about Walder Frey. Infact, he does come close to a mustache twirling villain although he is competent.

I really hope the opposite; him dying in ADWD and losing everything. Even if Robb was being stupid, I don't think he deserved what he got. Besides, I don't think Roose would be a good ruler.

What did Robb deserve? Roose coming into power meant peace, and peace extends to the smallfolk who have to deal with the ravaging of war. Robb was arrogant and far often too foolish. He got what he deserved. If the Red Wedding did not happen, how many more thousands of people would die before Robb was eventually stripped of power?

Sure, you may not be able to pass the neck, but you can burn the riverlands to the ground.

[Kalbowski]

Because the Starks weren't able to do anything?

The Starks weren't always rulers of the north and the Boltons were themselves once kings. The Boltons eventually did surrender to the Starks, presumbly on the condition that they would remain in control on their lands.

You are right on the money. The Boltons were/are powerful. And I am pretty sure that Roose is a pretty bad guy too. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

[Ferrous]

Here's a question...What would Ned have had to say about Roose, or the Boltons? Take it a step further, and you have something else that doesn't quite sit right, with me, anyways - Cat and Roose. Why didn't Cat have more insight to offer Robb into the men he was relying on as leaders?

No - I'm not dumping hate on Cat, because, hey, we don't know that there was any info that should have put the Starks on their guard.

One the one hand, maybe Roose never showed signs, ever, of possibly being a danger, because he was super clever and subtle about any "evil" he committed or considered. On the other hand, history. Bolton sounds like it was ALWAYS the major threat to the Starks, and the most likely House to hold the North after the Starks.

Still - I wonder what Ned thought of Roose?

We know that Roose was in a position to advise Ned in Robert's Rebllion, because Ned recalls Roose advocating killing Barristan. We can deduce that Roose supported Ned during his wars and did everything he was asked to do.

Catelyn POV whilst not stating whether or not she has met Roose before, suggests that she has.

Catelyn however is southron and may not fully appreciate the historical enemity between Bolton and Stark. But in any case Robb wasn't concerned either, though he has proven to be naive in many ways.

I don't think it was possible to predict Bolton's betrayal because at that point I don't think Bolton had any intention of betraying Robb and Bolton was loyal to Ned in two wars. My view of Roose is that once he realised that the rebellion was screwed decided to cut his loses. He spoke to the Frey's who had a legitimate reason to leave Robb about his plans, and got told of their plan. Roose figured this plan enables him to cut his loses in regards to the rebellion, actually allows him to benefit from the rebellion and that it was not in his best interests so stop the red wedding. So he went with it.

[Free Northman]

no point in hating dead men :devil:

What he said.

Dead man walking.

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Yeah, when he returns as unRoose. Seriously, let's just revive EVERYONE at this point and start over. Since Gregor and Sandor are apparently also being given the honour (I'm not sure if this is true or not, just speculation).

[Asha´s turnip]

Roose figured this plan enables him to cut his loses in regards to the rebellion, actually allows him to benefit from the rebellion and that it was not in his best interests so stop the red wedding. So he went with it.

He didn't "went with it" He was literally the one to stab Robb in the back. Saying he went with it implies that he knew of it and didn't stop it.

Knowing you should cut your losses and betray your king by letting him walk into a trap is something different than actually participating.

Roose coming into power meant peace, and peace extends to the smallfolk who have to deal with the ravaging of war. Robb was arrogant and far often too foolish. He got what he deserved. If the Red Wedding did not happen, how many more thousands of people would die before Robb was eventually stripped of power?

I won't deny that in the short term it saved lives, but the Boltons ruling the North from a place called the Dreadfort? With Ramsay Snow as he heir (I don't know if he's legitimized, but he's Roose's only surviving son, right)? Do the math...

[Kalbowski]

:bang:

I don't understand why so many people like the Boltons and want them to rule the North. That is ridiculous! Do you understand that means Bran and Rickon would have to die?! There are so many Stark haters on these forums. Since when did being honest and noble go hand in hand with stupid and naive?

Robb did what was right. He was a great leader. It took deceipt, curruption, and villainy to take him down. Tywin already got what was coming to him and the rest of the curruptors will to. Robb's one mistake was sending Theon to the Iron Islands. What he did with Jeyne was honorable. That is what I want from my king.

:whip:

[Ferrous]

He didn't "went with it" He was literally the one to stab Robb in the back. Saying he went with it implies that he knew of it and didn't stop it.

Knowing you should cut your losses and betray your king by letting him walk into a trap is something different than actually participating.

I won't deny that in the short term it saved lives, but the Boltons ruling the North from a place called the Dreadfort? With Ramsay Snow as he heir (I don't know if he's legitimized, but he's Roose's only surviving son, right)? Do the math...

He went with it by deciding to participate in this opportunity to both cut his losses and save his own hide.

It doesn't really matter who killed Robb, he wasn't going to be allowed to survive the Red Wedding.

The Dreadfort is a historical name that is thousands of years old, it doesn't mean that it's inhabitants are evil. Though admitedly, given this is fiction, it does have its implications.