Neglected cultures in Scifi and Fantasy

[Happy Ent]

Lladin, I was quite explicit: The only thing I don’t want this thread to devolve to is a debate about what the word racism should mean. That’s boring. Content isn’t. I’ve never said that this thread is boring, nor do I mean it. You’re projecting an opinion on me that I don’t hold. Stop doing that.

(And the only thing worse than a meta-debate about the word racism is a debate about the meta-debate about the word, racism. So I’ll not pursue this tangent any further. Back to the thread, dropping two levels of meta.)

[Shryke]

HE, I don't understand why you're making this argument, because you seem like an intelligent guy, but you're doing this defensive thing that people who like the status quo always seem to do when somebody challenges the racial/gender/whatever makeup in the genre--you're insisting that your opponents are arguing for an idealized world when that isn't at all the point.

Several people in this thread have argued (and I agree with them) that it's unfortunate that so much of fantasy consists of all-white worlds (or worlds where the people of color are minor and two-dimensional at best); notice that the characters are human, they have physiological features that are recognizable to us Earthlings--they're white. It doesn't actually require any idealization to create a world that has more than one race in it, or to create interesting, complex non-white characters. So I'm not sure what this "Disney" thing is about (noting that Disney hardly presents an ideal vision of diversity anyway). The real world has lots of races and has people of all races with interesting stories to tell. That's not Disney, or any other type of fiction; that's reality.

At any rate, my point stands. It's bad enough to aggressively refuse to understand where people are coming from on this--it's worse to not only shit all over the thread but complain about how boring it is while you're at it. You know what the thread is about. If this thread doesn't interest you, do what most of us do when we encounter threads that don't interest us--ignore it and find somewhere else to post.

I think what he means by "Disneyfied" is that, in fantasy especially, your cast of characters does not need to look like a fucking Benetton ad.

Sci-Fi has alot less leeway I think and there it mostly depends on the setting, but in standard fantasy, usually being a pseudo-historical analogue, racial diversity is not going to be high.

[Happy Ent]

[…] in standard fantasy, usually being a pseudo-historical analogue, racial diversity is not going to be high.

Unless there’s a reason for it.

Bakker’s Second Apocalypse gets away with it because the setting is a number of huge, inter-“national” wars that bring together people from many cultures. There is nice internal monologue by Sorweel, the closest character we get to somebody who has stepped out of faux North-Western Europe, reflecting about the myopia of his former culture when he finds himself in the company of scions, surrounded by diversity.

And then it‘s all good.

But the criticism of the OP is, as far as I understand, that default ethnicity of settings invented by Whites is unthinkingly white. I agree with that observation to some extent, but I don’t see the problem.

[Exa Inova]

As a gay man I can understand both the original poster's frustration and the difficulty authors have in dealing with the frustrations of minority readers. I want to read about gay and lesbian characters in any genre, but I of course want them to be realistic well-rounded characters. I don't want them to be either just flamboyant bitchy queens, or just counter-sterotypically macho brutes who happen to be gay. And ideally I want more than one gay character in a book, with different personalities and interests. However, unless you are writing a huge multi-volume saga like ASOIAF with hundreds of characters, it's hard for most authors -- especially those who aren't themselves gay -- to think it's realistic to do this, since in the average story the number of characters is itself small enough that introducing more than two gay characters will lead quickly to your having a much higner percentage of gays in your book than exist in the "real world". And that may bore or alienate many of your heterosexual readers, who are the majority of those who buy books. I think a lot of similar dynamics operate with ethnic minority characters.

To me, best post.

So, yeah. When I read yet another world where everyone is white - and I do mean white, culture schmulture, (thought ofcourse on ocassion it is male/straight/christian/upper class/whatever) - I do tend to ask, well, why? Sometimes theres a really good answer.

and

When you imagine a world that dosen't have any black people in it, or any jews, or any women, or whatever...why? Why are you more comfortable with it? why is that the world you want to tell a story about? why do these people not interest you, even though they do exist in reality? I'm sure theres diverse answers, and some of them are great.

also good.

These elements are reason why fantasy appeal less to me than sci fi. But to each his own.

[Shryke]

No ones imaging a world without black people. Or asians. Or whatever.

They are generally imagining a region without black people. Or whatever. And that's not that hard.

Shit, write historical fiction about shit going down in ancient/medieval Northern Europe (or Western Europe or China or whatever) and racial diversity (of the sort we, today, would think of) is not going to be high.

[Exa Inova]

Shit, write historical fiction about shit going down in ancient/medieval Northern Europe (or Western Europe or China or whatever) and racial diversity (of the sort we, today, would think of) is not going to be high.

I think you would be right in most cases.

But perhaps a case could be made if some story took place in a mediterranean region (like the summer sea). Racial diversity wouldnt be a strange thing.

[Sci-2]

You know, it occurs to me that a lot of short stories in SFF, ones that I've read anyway, do feature a lot of diversity. Perhaps because the onus of representing a culture in its entirety is removed, and one can focus on the facet that jumps out at them.

Really, I think we need excerpts and short stories of these other countries' fantasy so we can begin to properly conceptualize their ideas and their cultures. I think this would, in turn, generate interest in the art form and the market. Right now it is hard for me to even think about non-European flavored fantasy, I don't know enough about other cultures and trying to visualize it doesn't come naturally.

This stuff might not have high profits at first (save perhaps for wuxia type stuff), but I believe it could open the genre to people who find no interest in what's out there right now.

[kauldron26]

Here is another very interesting and intellectual article I recently read on this issue. It's by Aarti from the blog booklust, and she raises well articulated points.

Here is a link to her post: http://aartichapati.blogspot.com/2010/01/for-discussion-racism-in-fantasy-its.html

I copied her article below

I have also just finished reading the book Before They Are Hanged by Joe Abercrombie, the second book in his First Law trilogy of epic fantasy. And while I love this series, I think it's prejudiced. Actually, I think all epic fantasy is deeply prejudiced, but I am using Abercrombie's work as an example. So, just to make clear- as a fantasy fan, I love The First Law trilogy (or the two books of it I have read thus far). As a person of color, I am disappointed and somewhat offended by it.

Abercrombie's story revolves around a Union that is under attack from the north and from the south. The northerners have names like "Logen Ninefingers," "the Dogman," and "Threetrees." They have a tribal culture with a strict hierarchy of Named Men, down to Carls and then to the Thralls. They are hardened warriors who are used to a cold and bitter climate and used to traveling under austere conditions.

In fact, they sound exactly like the Saxons, particularly those that took over Britain (from the north) after the fall of Rome. Eventually, some of the Northmen come down to the Union to help their forces defeat the person who is true evil, a northman named Bethod who wants to expand his empire. The Unionists eventually let these men help them, and they all (to paraphrase) become fast friends and work together to a greater cause.

The other enemy in Abercrombie's story are the Gurkish. The Gurkish believe in the Prophet Khalul, live in a place called Sarkant, have frightening flesh-eating fighting zombies, are dark-skinned, and have representatives named Shabbed al Islik Burai.

I would venture to say that (based on the name of the representative alone) the Gurkish are basically Muslim. But maybe I'm jumping to conclusions. I hope so. I won't bother explaining how offensive it is that the Gurkish have flesh-eating zombies because I feel that is fairly self-explanatory. I will point out, however, that at the end of the second book, there were no "good Gurkish" people who realized that they were on the side of evil and switched to the side of the Union. There was one who wanted peace, yes. He was beheaded. Also, I am not sure as I haven't finished the series yet, but I have a feeling that the Gurkish are a greater enemy than the northmen since their leader, the Prophet Khalul, broke a tenet of magic and now is destroying the world.

Many people say that fantasy cannot be racist because it takes place in other worlds. I say, based on the above (and on many other fantasy novels I cannot cite at the moment), that it is an inherently racist genre. Not only because it seems fairly clear here that the darker-skinned race who follows a power-hungry prophet is the enemy, but for many other reasons as well.

How many people of color do you see at fantasy conventions? At sci fi conventions? How many authors of color do you know that write in the genre? How many epic fantasy novels take place in a non-quasi-feudal-Europe setting? Very, very few.

In researching for this blog post, I came across some fantastic articles and posts by other people. One in particular struck me to the core, perhaps because the author is an Indian who enjoys fantasy fiction. In her absolutely excellent post I Didn't Dream of Dragons, deepad writes:

When I was around thirteen years old, I tried to write a fantasy novel. It was going to be an epic adventure with a cross-dressing princess on the run, a snarky hero, and dragons. I got stuck when I had to figure out what they would do after they left the city. Logically, there would be a tavern.

But there were no taverns in India. Write what you know is a rule that didn’t really need to be told to me; after having spent my entire life reading books in English about people named Peter and Sally, I wanted to write about the place I lived in, even if I didn’t have a whole bookcase of Indian fantasy world-building to steal from. And I couldn’t get past the lack of taverns. Even now, I have spent a number of years trying to figure out how cross-dressing disguise would work in a pre-Islamic India where the women went bare-breasted. When I considered including a dragon at the end of a story, I had to map out their route to the Himalayas, because dragons can be a part of a Tibetan Buddhist tradition—they do not figure in Hindu mythology.

And that's exactly it. I love epic fantasy and I love European historical fiction. The two are not unrelated. Most epic fantasy is based in a Eurocentric world. I wish it wasn't. I wish there was good epic fantasy out there that was based in other cultures and other mythologies. I wish the very idea of epic fantasy did not by default preclude an ancient Indian setting. And I wish epic fantasy was not so very race-heavy. Why do we so rarely see integrated groups of people? Why is it one race always pitted against another? We live in such a multi-cultural, mixed race, tossed salad of a world. If people have evolved to the point of being more integrated, then shouldn't the fantasy genre evolve, too?

Rose Fox wrote an article for Publishers Weekly about this exact topic:

What I would like to see are more fourth-stage narratives where cultural and physical differences matter but aren't all that matter, where stereotypes show up and are then questioned and refuted, where the cost of enforcing isolation is made clear and at least one person wonders whether the payoff is worth it... and all of that as a sidebar to the main plot, not a way for the writer to proudly parade around their anti-racism and ask for cookies.

It's true and it's necessary. I grew up Indian in America, reading a lot of English fantasy novels involving tall, handsome, white heroes, dragons, wizards and feudal class systems. I also probably read a great deal like Abercrombie's, that pitted one race against another, with the Eurocentric race always the race of focus, the center of the story. Is this right? Why is it that I have such a fascination with British history but not so much with Indian history? Why is it that I love epic fantasy?

Maybe because that was all that was available for me to read growing up. Sure, I read Amar Chitra Katha like all the other Indian kids, but most kids around me never knew what I was talking about. I could not discuss the Amar Chitra Katha stories with my classmates because they would never read those stories. But they could all discuss The American Girl Collection with me. And I knew where they were coming from because I read them all. They were all about white girls. I wanted to be Samantha. She was a wealthy Victorian white girl. I wanted to get married in a church in a white wedding dress. Growing up, I never dreamed about being an Indian girl. All my imaginings were of white culture. As deepad says so well in her post (really, just read it in its entirety because I must stop stealing his words):

Do not tell me, or the people like me who have grown up hearing Arabic around them, or singing in Swahili, or dreaming in Bengali—but reading only (or even mostly) in English (or French, or Dutch)—that this colonial rape of our language has not infected our ability to narrate, has not crippled our imagination. When I was in class 7, our English teacher gave us the rare creative writing assignment, and three of my classmates wrote adventure stories about characters named Julian and Peggy and Tom. Do not tell me that this cultural fracture does not affect the odds required to produce enough healthy imaginations that can chrysalis into writers.

Maybe there are so few people of color writing and reading fantasy novels because we are either not present in them or because when we are represented, it is usually as the enemy. Ursula K. LeGuin said, “...'what sells’ or 'doesn’t sell’ can be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If black kids, Hispanics, Indians both Eastern and Western, don’t buy fantasy—which they mostly don’t—could it be because they never see themselves on the cover?”

Yes, LeGuin, it could be. And it makes me so sad to think that children are growing up in America still believing that white = better. In this really great video, you see black children today believing that white dolls are still better than black ones. And, I'd venture to say, it's not just the black kids in America who feel that way. It's the Hispanic, Asian, Indian and any other minority kid, too.

So for those of you commenting on blogs saying that "white privilege" doesn't exist, and that you have faced discrimination, too- for your sex, for your sexuality, for your weight, for your economic status, for your accent- I'm sorry, but you're wrong; it does exist. As Mary Anne Mohanraj says so eloquently:

You know other suffering, yes. But it’s not a contest. It’s not a ‘my pain is bigger than your pain’ debate. The question is whether you have experienced a particular thing — whether, in a culture of institutionalized racism, you have walked down the street in a brown or yellow or red or black skin, and dealt with the consequences therein. That’s all. Because while there’s a damn good chance that you’ve suffered more than me (I’ve led a relatively sheltered life for a PoC, insulated by being part of the model minority, and by my family’s upper-middle-class status), that’s still not the point. The point has to do with specific experience.

And that is why racial diversity matters. Not just in life itself, but in access to reading materials. Yes, I could read books in other genres that have Indian characters. But, damnit, I like epic fantasy. And I want to read it. And I am not asking too much for people like me to be represented fairly and positively. Not only in epic fantasy, but across all genres. Because, when it comes down to it, I don't want any future children I might have to be like me- I want them to dream in color.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

The author of that article should probably finish the first law trilogy.

[Gargantuanjon Old Chap]

I happen to come from a tiny country in Eastern Europe. Tons of fantasy writers there. Many of them don't write the typical anglosaxon fantasy cultures. Many of them write slavic, turkish, caspian, midterranean cultures. I have no trouble finding protagonists of my slavic culture (that said, I prefer western writers... less cliched overall).

So what's the problem with the whiners? If you are looking for more PoC protagonists, read Indian, African, Asian, Hispanic fantasy! There are far more people in those countries than in Western Europe and USA, they [edit] potentially [/edit] have more writers and more books. And I'm sure they write protagonists you want - hell, why on earth would they write white protagonists?

Look harder.

[Sci-2]

Here is another very interesting and intellectual article I recently read on this issue. It's by Aarti from the blog booklust, and she raises well articulated points.

Here is a link to her post: http://aartichapati.blogspot.com/2010/01/for-discussion-racism-in-fantasy-its.html

I copied her article below

Interesting article, but while her points are well articulated I still disagree with them for the most part:

1) Wow, does she get the First Law Trilogy wrong. I honestly am not sure how she got the idea that the Gurkish represent evil. Huge parts of that ethnicity are slaves. Having a Prophet doesn't make the religion Muslim, but even on the off chance Joe Abercrombie fully intend to attack a religion that's different than attacking a race. I think he was using the language of religion, in the same way we often use the term "salvation" in trying to describe what happens in other religions' afterlives.

2) I don't really know if epic fantasy can be blamed for inability to visualize yourself in stories. I imagined myself hanging out with beings of all kinds of races when I was heavy into mythology as a child, I figured I'd always be welcomed.

3) Putting a white person on a cover when the characters within are not white is pretty bad. But it does call to mind a question - if every race or ethnic group seeks to find representation, then will not the market dictate that the majority of fantasy cater to its extant fans who I believe are white?

4) There is a problem presented, but no real solution that I can see. The solution proposed seems to be that authors need to be more aware of diversity when writing. I suppose an author can always stick in characters of different racial backgrounds, but to what extent should this be done? Is the issue of prejudice not explored in Mieville's kephri or Martin's cranogmen? Even after reading the article, I still don't get how an author can genuinely craft such a character without altering the story they want to tell - the other option is some token for the sake of lip service.

4) Unsure about this:

"How many people of color do you see at fantasy conventions? At sci fi conventions? How many authors of color do you know that write in the genre? How many epic fantasy novels take place in a non-quasi-feudal-Europe setting? Very, very few."

Is there some unseen hostility toward writers of color in SFF? As to the fans, if the majority are white I think that has more to do with culture than identification as a child. After all, what genre has more diverse characters?

[Nukelavee]

Personally, Rose Fox sounds like she needs to grow up a little more. And, yes, I mean that as an insult.

Seriously, she's bitter because a genre written by (mostly) whites, based on european myths and cultures, stalemated her ability to write the same, and make it Indian? "Oh no! I can't use dragons and taverns and make it Indian!?!?!?!!? Damn you whitey!"

Colonial rape of their languages? hahaahahahaha. Right. Because the evil European Fantasy Fascists stamp out non-white writers attempting to work in their own culture and language.

If she wants to read Indian Epic Fantasy, she needs to write some, or support Indian writers in their careers.

She claims it's about white privelage, but ignores the flipside of things. Lets say a writer DOES include Indian characters, or base it on Indian myths, do you know what they are now open to recieving?

Complaints that they got everything wrong, complaints that they are appropriating other cultures, stealing, in other words. Racist if they don't use other cultures, racist if they do use other cultures, but not in a satisfying way to that culture's readers.

And, what about other cultures writing about Europeans? How do we come across in their cultures?.

There are so many blindly onesided whiny aspects to that article, I'm actually incapable of addressing it without sounding like I'm going someplace that I'm not.

[kauldron26]

Personally, Rose Fox sounds like she needs to grow up a little more. And, yes, I mean that as an insult.

Seriously, she's bitter because a genre written by (mostly) whites, based on european myths and cultures, stalemated her ability to write the same, and make it Indian? "Oh no! I can't use dragons and taverns and make it Indian!?!?!?!!? Damn you whitey!"

Colonial rape of their languages? hahaahahahaha. Right. Because the evil European Fantasy Fascists stamp out non-white writers attempting to work in their own culture and language.

If she wants to read Indian Epic Fantasy, she needs to write some, or support Indian writers in their careers.

She claims it's about white privelage, but ignores the flipside of things. Lets say a writer DOES include Indian characters, or base it on Indian myths, do you know what they are now open to recieving?

Complaints that they got everything wrong, complaints that they are appropriating other cultures, stealing, in other words. Racist if they don't use other cultures, racist if they do use other cultures, but not in a satisfying way to that culture's readers.

And, what about other cultures writing about Europeans? How do we come across in their cultures?.

There are so many blindly onesided whiny aspects to that article, I'm actually incapable of addressing it without sounding like I'm going someplace that I'm not.

~sigh~ I really hate that certain folks have started using the condescending terms "PC" and "whiny" any time people of color state an issue. Maybe this conversation is pointless because ultimately you have to be empathetic to understand where we are coming from.

[emberling]

~sigh~ I really hate that certain folks have started using the condescending terms "PC" and "whiny" any time people of color state an issue. Maybe this conversation is pointless because ultimately you have to be empathetic to understand where we are coming from.

It comes across as whiny when you "state an issue" and provide no solution other than "the white man needs to stop keepin us down!"

Very few of us have the kind of perspective that is required to produce the kind of story that is being suggested. The kind of perspective that is needed? It's this one:

When I was around thirteen years old, I tried to write a fantasy novel. It was going to be an epic adventure with a cross-dressing princess on the run, a snarky hero, and dragons. I got stuck when I had to figure out what they would do after they left the city. Logically, there would be a tavern.

But there were no taverns in India. Write what you know is a rule that didn’t really need to be told to me; after having spent my entire life reading books in English about people named Peter and Sally, I wanted to write about the place I lived in, even if I didn’t have a whole bookcase of Indian fantasy world-building to steal from. And I couldn’t get past the lack of taverns. Even now, I have spent a number of years trying to figure out how cross-dressing disguise would work in a pre-Islamic India where the women went bare-breasted. When I considered including a dragon at the end of a story, I had to map out their route to the Himalayas, because dragons can be a part of a Tibetan Buddhist tradition—they do not figure in Hindu mythology.

This sounds really fresh and interesting and wonderful. Put the Western epic fantasy cliche characters in an Indian setting and watch them flail around in culture shock, ultimately learning the ins and outs of the culture! Sure, that's not what she was initially trying to do, but in her struggle to make that work she ran across something better.

You know other suffering, yes. But it’s not a contest. It’s not a ‘my pain is bigger than your pain’ debate. The question is whether you have experienced a particular thing — whether, in a culture of institutionalized racism, you have walked down the street in a brown or yellow or red or black skin, and dealt with the consequences therein. That’s all. Because while there’s a damn good chance that you’ve suffered more than me (I’ve led a relatively sheltered life for a PoC, insulated by being part of the model minority, and by my family’s upper-middle-class status), that’s still not the point. The point has to do with specific experience.

This is absolutely correct. We have not had this experience. And that is why the onus is on the minorities to create fantasy that incorporates them. Because we can't. We don't have the specific life experience. We can try, and we do. But it's not enough, it's not close to enough. We need you for that. We don't have the drive, the intimately personal desire caused by the issue being immediate rather than abstract. We're not capable of trying hard enough. It's not fair. It's really fucking unfair. But it's true.

FWIW, I really hate the "But if we write about minorities and get it wrong, they'll complain!" argument. There's some amount of truth to it, at least that it's a true fear that we have which contributes to whitewashing, but it's a really shitty reason. Fiction offends people, sometimes for good reason and sometimes not, and part of being an author is just dealing with that, not living in fear of it.

[Nukelavee]

Kurokaze managed to state what I've been flailing around trying to.

There have got to be tons of talented writers who aren't white/european, who have the experiences and viewpoints to write fantasy that isn't "white" fantasy. So, why is the onus on us to write ethnic fantasy.

Kaldroun, empathy goes both ways. Lets talk about what you think I've dismissed, but Rose says I can't comment on because I haven't experienced it. My family, ethnically, is Irish. (sure, there is an english greatgrandparent on one side, and a german on the other, but, still, irish). Irish family in Canada since the 1800's. Any idea what history, ethnically, that covers? Go look up how the Irish were treated by the English, and the reasons for a mass exodous to North America. The Irish were just as exploited as any other minority.

Next - consider what it's like to be white, in a black neighbourhood, or an asian one. Trust me, whites are just as often looked at the same way as other minorities, when they are the minority.

So, why this stereotype of all whites benefit from white privelege?

And why use that arguement at all when discussing fantasy works?

Again - why is it that ethnic writers don't write ethnic fantasy? Why is it, even when you can point to writers who do create peoples that aren't white, you are told it's not enough?

[Sci-2]

I still am missing something regarding why people who want something in SFF can't produce it themselves.

Some of the other articles complain that there is a publishing barrier in their home countries but honestly in this day and age there enough online zines to get the ball rolling.

Strange Horizons has lots of diverse short stories, I believe some from there and Fantasy Magazine were put into printed anthologies.

What bothers me about a lot of these articles is it seems to subscribe some kind of subconscious or overt racism to the authors in the genre, or that some group is owed something from these authors beyond their stories. Its always easy to point out the prejudice of others, but I wonder how many people would want their favorite authors to include every group they could into a story?

The idea of just creating a series for representation's sake misses a lot about writing, in that I doubt anyone can just do some research about say Indian mythology and craft a fantasy about it. Even if someone like Martin could churn one out I doubt it would be good.

Edit: Mind you, I actually WANT some this fantasy to published and available, I just don't think there's an onus on anyone to do so as Rose Fox seems to suggest.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Nukelavee, I understand that the over-large, badly-formatted copy of the post doesn't make it clear, but Rose Fox doesn't say a thing about growing up Indian. In fact, Rose Fox doesn't actually say anything in this article -- a quote of hers is used as a support for Aarti Chapati's discussion.

The way you phrase your objections, it makes me think you don't actually grok what the author is actually trying to get across, either. I recommend reading the post on her own blog, with the proper formatting in place. It will help separate her words from her citations / quotations, and perhaps address some of your points.

Here's my attempt to do the latter:

1. Because fantasy has historically been written by whites, and by whites with a particular cultural narrative, there is this idea that "fantasy" must mean "has dragons and taverns and is pseudo-medieval England". Look at the praise Bakker gets for being "pseudo-medieval EMEA"! The quote from deepad is specifically talking about her difficulty with trying to get these fantasy tropes (tavern, plucky cross-dressing princess, dragons) into a culture that has none of these things. And if she can't have these tropes in there, is the story she has written really fantasy? (In other words, why is so much fantasy based around these tropes? SF isn't just living on ETA: crap! unfinished sentence. Mars, or exploring first contact.)

2. There is a long and storied history of colonial powers stamping out local languages and customs. It's not the fantasy writers, necessarily, but you still end up with people who speak in a language and are looked down upon for it. (This isn't just "white" against "non-white", either, or at least not as we see it now: look at the near-total eradication of the dialects of Irish, Manx, and Scottish Gaelic due to English.) Any official or "proper" communication will be in the language of the colonialists, and often reinforcing their cultural values rather than those of the person reading (or sometimes even writing).

In addition, when you have the same few people (or types of people) deciding what to publish, you can end up with a very narrow range of perspectives represented on the bookshelf. This goes back into defining what that genre 'is', and how to write it, even on top of the sometimes-opposing cultural narratives in day-to-day life.

2a. This becomes a self-reinforcing cycle, much like the idea that "boys won't read/watch about girls as main characters, but girls will watch/read about boys" -- because this is an assumed truth, it's a perceived given that the way to be more successful is to write to the pickier audience. Write those male main characters, write the white folks, write "the majority of consumers". Some of the problems here are that 1) it's never really tested that boys won't read/watch about girls -- compare Ripley in Alien to whoever the main characters are in Mean Girls; it's not often Ripley/Aliens that comes to mind when someone mentions 'a girl movie' 2) and "the majority" is often not really the majority at all, or isn't as much of a majority as expected. Women aged 18 and over make up a third of the entire gaming population, and women overall make up 40%. Even more, women buy 46% of games (so they're obviously controlling purchases for boys/men to some extent, too).

3. You don't know that any of those people don't support non-white writers in non-European milieus, or don't write themselves. However, this also ties into....

4. The onus should not be solely on minorities to write stories that include them, when appropriate, just like we don't rely on women to write stories with women in them. (Well, most of us don't. Some people flat out refuse to read female authors, too, and yet I don't think they're reading male-character-only stories.) It's true, I can't know what it's like to be a black woman in the US, but I also can't know what it's like to be a white man in the US, or elsewhere, and I can't know what it's like to be living in pseudo-Medievsneyland, or to live on a spaceship, or to meet an alien, or to live under a totalitarian government, or any number of other things it's assumed I could write about. So why is race different? Yes, it's entirely possible to write these things badly, or insensitively, but the idea is to do research first, just as with any other unfamiliar topic. Do research, ask those more knowledgeable for help and feedback, be open to criticism, and be ready to fuck up. If you do fuck up, own up to it, apologise, and do better next time. There are very, very few people out there who don't improve as writers along the way, and the same will be true of writing about any particular topic. It's just that authors shouldn't expect asspats for just throwing any old caricature into the story -- or even writing in half-baked ideas of characters and cultures -- in the name of meaning well. However, fear of criticism shouldn't necessarily be a reason to avoid such characters and cultures, either, or we'd be back to the idea of books only of the background/culture/gender/appearance of the author, which obviously doesn't happen.

[kauldron26]

Kurokaze managed to state what I've been flailing around trying to.

There have got to be tons of talented writers who aren't white/european, who have the experiences and viewpoints to write fantasy that isn't "white" fantasy. So, why is the onus on us to write ethnic fantasy.

Kaldroun, empathy goes both ways. Lets talk about what you think I've dismissed, but Rose says I can't comment on because I haven't experienced it. My family, ethnically, is Irish. (sure, there is an english greatgrandparent on one side, and a german on the other, but, still, irish). Irish family in Canada since the 1800's. Any idea what history, ethnically, that covers? Go look up how the Irish were treated by the English, and the reasons for a mass exodous to North America. The Irish were just as exploited as any other minority.

Next - consider what it's like to be white, in a black neighbourhood, or an asian one. Trust me, whites are just as often looked at the same way as other minorities, when they are the minority.

So, why this stereotype of all whites benefit from white privelege?

And why use that arguement at all when discussing fantasy works?

Again - why is it that ethnic writers don't write ethnic fantasy? Why is it, even when you can point to writers who do create peoples that aren't white, you are told it's not enough?

Once again, I have not asked anyone to write "ethnic" fantasy. Please do not be condescending. I have stated that more inclusion in fantasy world would be appreciated by fans. Also why would it be a great thing if more white writers did it? Because the sad fact is white authors are the the majority and are more prevalent. They have more readers, and due to this are more likely to make an impact on the genre as a whole, most especially when they are already well established.

Secondly, like it or not, believe it or not, it doesn't change the fact that white privilege does exist and whites benefit from it consciously or unconsciously in the US. it is not a myth or a stereotype. It is a fact. When watching tv, movies, reading a book, going to the mall or going to work most likely and more often than not, whites are in the majority. Most of the people in power on a federal, state and local level are white. Fact of the matter is that when a white person wake up in the morning race doesn't play a daily factor that might impact the day. Everyday I wake up I know how much pressure exists with my performance at work, how much i don't want to be affiliated with the stereotype, and how much i don't want assumptions based on my race to affect my career prospects. All through college and graduate school, even at the leadership level at my company, I KNOW I stand out. I know that my presence in these places is against the grain. Hence the privilege.

But all this is besides the point. At the end of the day, it's looks like some individuals will continue to consciously choose to diminish the importance of this issue and disregard it. I was hoping to shine some light on the issue so more people could understand why it is an issue in the first place and discuss what can be done. There are a good amount of writers that are very inclusive and i will list some; Dan Simmons, Guy Gavriel Kay, Kate Elliott, Steven Erikson and Richard Morgan. These writers are ahead of the curve and create worlds that are inclusive of many cultures and races. No one is saying they are not doing enough, all I am saying is why are there so few, and I wish more MAJOR ESTABLISHED writers would join them in this way of thinking.

@ Kurokaze, at no point have I or anyone on this board stated that the white man is keeping us down. As a black man, I can tell you I abhor that excuse. I opened this discussion to DISCUSS solutions and answer questions of why this issue exists in the first place.

@ Aoife, i appreciate the insightful responses

[fionwe1987]

That was a very interesting blog post. I don't agree with all of it, but it raises some very important points.

Nukelavee:

You said:

Colonial rape of their languages? hahaahahahaha. Right. Because the evil European Fantasy Fascists stamp out non-white writers attempting to work in their own culture and language.

I don't think you're really appreciating what's being said. There is definitely no conspiracy to stamp out works in local languages. The author is talking of a very specific issue that colonized cultures face.

I'm an Indian, and I went to a school where I learned in English. My own mother tongue was a second language that I began to learn in the fourth grade. And while yes, this was a choice, and my parents could have sent me to a school where everything was taught in Tamil or Hindi, it wasn't really so since the legacy of our colonization by the British means that the best schools teach in English. There isn't anyone actively enforcing this, but it is true.

In many ways, I'm deeply appreciative of that, because it has made it easier for me when I came to the USA for my PhD. But, with English being the primary language of instruction in school, it naturally followed that the majority of the works of fiction in the library were in English. I got introduced to fiction in English, so when I finally was old enough to want to actually read the mythic stories that I used to hear every night as a child, I searched for English versions of those stories!

Now, there is a huge and growing population of middle class, urban, English-educated Indians who want to read books. And their language of choice for fiction, because of their education, happens to be English. If they want to read fantasy, they have to settle for Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings, and all the other staples of fantasy that are discussed in this board; when it would be great if they could, along with these excellent works, also read books of fantasy that mine the stupendously rich local mythic traditions.

By some measures, Indian mythology is one of the largest bodies of such works. Yet, at a time when there are educated Indians who can revisit these myths, reinterpret, reincorporate and reinvigorate them to make them relevant to modern Indian society, when they can write stories that perhaps entirely avoid the typical tropes of Euro-centric fantasy, they are stuck because the medium in which they can best communicate is English.

I know this is hard to get if you haven't experienced it, so I'm going to explain it with a personal example. I started working on a novelization of an ancient Sanskrit play called "Mṛcchakaṭika", which roughly translates to "The little clay cart". One of the central characters, "Vasantasena", is... I can only use the term courtesan, but that hardly captures it. She is what may be termed as "the city's bride", something of a cross between entertainer for hire, Hollywood diva, courtesan and local beauty queen.

I was immediately aware that describing her profession was going to be difficult. The negative connotations associated with courtesans don't fit her at all, and the other terms are way too anachronistic. So here I am, stuck attempting to describe the profession of one of my chief characters, something that would take all of two words in Sanskrit, but require some very clumsy writing in English.

And that difficulty is going to be faced by anyone attempting to describe another culture in a foreign language. Its like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

Who's at fault here? I'd argue nobody. I doubt the colonizers who started English schools in India so Indians could be recruited into the British civil service and given a "leg up", no matter how patronizing their idea, had a clue about how their actions might negatively impact the literature and culture of the colony. And India isn't even the worst hit, in this respect. At least we managed to keep large swathes of out national identity. But did languages, cultures and literature in India and elsewhere undergo a "colonial rape"? Definitely.

[Sci-2]

But all this is besides the point. At the end of the day, it's looks like some individuals will continue to consciously choose to diminish the importance of this issue and disregard it. I was hoping to shine some light on the issue so more people could understand why it is an issue in the first place and discuss what can be done. There are a good amount of writers that are very inclusive and i will list some; Dan Simmons, Guy Gavriel Kay, Kate Elliott, Steven Erikson and Richard Morgan. These writers are ahead of the curve and create worlds that are inclusive of many cultures and races. No one is saying they are not doing enough, all I am saying is why are there so few, and I wish more MAJOR ESTABLISHED writers would join them in this way of thinking.

Again, I think when you are trying to tell a certain type of story, you can use diversity in different ways. Erikson's story is not Martin's, if anything Martin's story hinges on the medieval European society with race and class and bloodline -prejudiced tendencies. Erikson's characters are part of a nation spanning empire with much more modern sensibilities. Martin builds off a period piece.

I think its unfair to not include Martin as a writer tackling the issue of discrimination, who examines facets of prejudice in his stories without derailing the narrative. There are many different cultures and ways of life in the books as well, regardless of the skin color of the characters. I think asking people to think about prejudice and judgment is a more important task than inclusion of certain real world races.

Let's move on from whether or not it is a problem - obviously it is on some level if people are bothered by it. What are the solutions? How does one encourage diversity in the SFF? I still hold the best thing is if you want to see something in the SFF you should work to get in there. Either write something, meet authors at conventions and give positive praise or go to their site and leave constructive criticism. Start blogs about what authors do right or wrong - never has the chance for author-reader communication been greater.

I was immediately aware that describing her profession was going to be difficult. The negative connotations associated with courtesans don't fit her at all, and the other terms are way too anachronistic. So here I am, stuck attempting to describe the profession of one of my chief characters, something that would take all of two words in Sanskrit, but require some very clumsy writing in English.

You should write about this - to bring this character to life, even the attempt to explain it would be fascinating. Translation of values - making the reader understand the other, even to an extent - is a staple of SFF!