Neglected cultures in Scifi and Fantasy

[kauldron26]

I don't think it has anything to do with where someone has traveled but the bizarre and as far as I can tell racist need to jump to statistics and descriptions of "barbarism" when someone makes a heartfelt post about wishing there was more SFF that include their race/culture.

Notice I don't even agree with the OP, and found the idea that white authors have an obligation to include minorities unfounded, but I saw no need to lash out about the crime members of certain races commit or claim that their homelands have massive amounts of "barbarism". Perhaps this wasn't the intent, but to me it seemed like a disrespectful and unseemly way to try and "win" a discussion.

Hey thanks for the response sciborg. Im not stating that white authors have an obligation to include minorities. That can have a negative impact on art, writing and story because then its forced. I just really don't understand why it is not a natural impulse. That is where my concern is. I really just wish they were naturally more inclusive of everyone. Because at the end of the day, even though certain successful white SFF authors write stories about characters/and cultures that are similar or exactly like theirs, their fanbase is DIVERSE.

[Sci-2]

Hey thanks for the response sciborg. Im not stating that white authors have an obligation to include minorities. That can have a negative impact on art, writing and story because then its forced. I just really don't understand why it is not a natural impulse. That is where my concern is. I really just wish they were naturally more inclusive of everyone. Because at the end of the day, even though certain successful white SFF authors write stories about characters/and cultures that are similar or exactly like theirs, their fanbase is DIVERSE.

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you said, I think we're on the same page with some caveats.

I think the challenge here is not just for authors but for the readership. How willing are readers to forgive authors for their honest faux pas? Readers aren't always good at separating the POV of characters from those of the author. Can the minority character have flaws, and if he does is the author knowingly or unknowingly following up on a stereotype of that minority group?

Let me ask - when as a person not of group X done a good job writing about group X? Which male writer really gets female characters? I know a lot of women who love Whedon's female characters for example.

I think an author who is an exploratory artist will find ways to explore different facets of the human condition, but not every author can or will explore every facet. However, most people don't want to spend time or money on entertainment that doesn't grab them, so publishers are also not going to just have an all out push for diversity.

Even books from other non-Western writers have to (as I see it) squeeze through stylistic bottlenecks based on a vanguard of bestsellers or prize winners -> I can only imagine that there are authors in India that don't have the style of Interpreter of Maladies and Small Gods -> or perhaps the problem is that I see them as so similar due to my lack of cultural knowledge.

[polishgenius]

The spice does that. Or I could have sworn.

It's definitely the spice. It's even a plot point, to my recollection.

[RathHood]

Interesting discussion, I just want to point out that one of the greatest fantasy series - 'Malazan Book of the Fallen' by S.Erikson has many MAJOR black characters, not just dark skinned but black. Kalam and Quick Ben are just two of them and they are among my favourites (first - ultracool assassin, second ultracool 'wizard').

Aha - one more thing S.Erikson is white.

[SkynJay]

Ok, I am confused. How can someone triple post (information mentioned earlier in the thread he didn't read), but still have only two posts?

[wolverine]

I think Jordan incorporates many different cultures in WoT. The peoples he has are mostly a blend of cultures that I find interesting and mostly believable.

And at least once, maybe twice, he has been called a racist in this thread.

I read a lot of historical fiction and in many discussions authors are accused of racism or not knowing the culture they write about and thus totally misrepresenting them. I think it is very hard for authors to avoid this issue with readers, so in fantasy why would you choose to go there unless you feel strongly about making a point?

But to your original thread topic, there are a lot of cultures that I think are very interesting that are not explored in the fantasy I read. Or at least are not strongly developed. But it is not a writers job to go looking for neglected peoples to develop cultures in their made up world.

[wolverine]

I get frustrated when some individuals get angry so quickly that those of us FANS someday want to see a character we can actually relate to or one that represents us. Now if it was an author from Bangladesh writing about Bangladesh culture, that's a different issue. I can't expect the author to have Brazilian main characters. But if you're from the UK or US and you're writing literature that intentionally do not reflect your own world and all the folks that live in it, it kind of really sucks for some fans.

So who could/would represent you or your culture in fantasy? I am pretty much a white middle class person in 2011. I don't really see anyone in medeival fantasy representing my culture, there are bits in certain books but the differences are too drastic for them to be meaningful to me. But I can relate to characters in the books regardless of their culture.

[Datepalm]

I think Jordan incorporates many different cultures in WoT. The peoples he has are mostly a blend of cultures that I find interesting and mostly believable.

And at least once, maybe twice, he has been called a racist in this thread.

By me, I think. Racist is a harsh word, but Jordan does incorporate many different cultures in his books, and yet virtually all the members of these different cultures (with, to the best of my recollection, the single exception of the sea folk) are white.

[Galactus]

The Seanchan aren't really white (some are, but not all, considering they're ottoman japanese that makes sense).

But yeah, the Sea-folk and the Shaarans are the only ones explicitly described as non-white, although there are a couple of individual characters who are. (seem to remember a couple of Aes Sedai being described as dark-skinned, although that might mean anything, and they might be sea-folk anyway)

[Sci-2]

By me, I think. Racist is a harsh word, but Jordan does incorporate many different cultures in his books, and yet virtually all the members of these different cultures (with, to the best of my recollection, the single exception of the sea folk) are white.

Yeah, I think a lot of times authors are going to get it wrong but not out of deliberate prejudice.

Race, gender, what have you, can only be solved with dialogue and in the realm of SFF authors most I think are going to play it safe and explore issues using their fictional cultures rather than the real ones.

Really, the more I think about it and recall the accusations thrown at Bakker for hating women, the more it seems to me fans need to be more willing to at least believe an author wrote something with the best of intentions, and authors have to separate honest criticism from the dross as well.

[Datepalm]

Race, gender, what have you, can only be solved with dialogue and in the realm of SFF authors most I think are going to play it safe and explore issues using their fictional cultures rather than the real ones.

Really, the more I think about it and recall the accusations thrown at Bakker for hating women, the more it seems to me fans need to be more willing to at least believe an author wrote something with the best of intentions.

I think we're allowed to, you know, talk about stuff. Critically even. And call it out if its sexist or racist or insensitive or ideologically suspect in some other way. Even if the author didn't mean for it to be. No one has to agree with us either, but if someone has something to say, it should get said, and not drowned out in 'well, stop being over sensetive / what you're asking is impossible / why do we have to talk about nasty stuff that makes me uncomfortable / whatever."

[Sci-2]

I think we're allowed to, you know, talk about stuff. Critically even. And call it out if its sexist or racist or insensitive or ideologically suspect in some other way. Even if the author didn't mean for it to be. No one has to agree with us either, but if someone has something to say, it should get said, and not drowned out in 'well, stop being over sensetive / what you're asking is impossible / why do we have to talk about nasty stuff that makes me uncomfortable / whatever."

Oh I totally agree DP, I've definitely read books where suddenly I start to wonder what the author's agenda is and wouldn't want to be silenced just for voicing my concern.

But I think it is important to not go in guns blazing (a bad habit of mine), and at least at the outset have some faith that the author either was exploring some issue or at minimum unintentionally slanted a demographic. I think this happens in many works, an artist who wants to challenge stereotypes might end up confirming them.

[Eurytus]

I think some people need to refresh themselves on what racism actually is.

Because writing a novel with an all white cast or creating a fantasy land for of white folk is not racist.

[Grogsmash]

One thing that disturbs me about this thread is how focused it is on skin color. The title of the thread invokes culture, not skin color, yet that seems to be how we are judging the variety of cultures by different authors. There really isn't a "black" or "white" culture.

Now I get that is based on how most people seem to view diversity. However, lets take Sci-fi for example. Is it so certain that skin color will even be an issue in culture at all in hundreds of years? Take Peter F Hamilton's Night's Dawn trilogy. At issue in many parts of the book is the culture war between adamists/edenists. Would it have been a better series if the cultures had also been delineated by skin color?

I grant you it would be nice for authors to throw in more skin colors in worlds that doing so makes sense. Though I am sure that would open up a huge can of worms in some places (like if Astapor had been black). Still, I am just not convinced that changing skin color matters. Do we really need people of our skin color to be our heroes in books to empathize with them? Man I hope not. I am caucasian, so who knows since I might be biased in this, but I dont think I would have empathized less with Ned stark if he had black skin. The character most like me in The Wire was probably Lester.

So I guess what I am trying to say in this long rambling post is I don't think it helps when we focus on skin color so much. I would prefer a book with a wide diversity of cultures over one that had a wide diversity of skin colors. Calling someone like RJ a racist even though he has plenty of diverse cultures that get quite a bit of positive treatment strikes me as offbase unless it is based solely on skin color.

[Wulfram]

Fantasy cultures tend to be rather charicatured, which could be uncomfortable if it's not the author's own.

[fionwe1987]

Regarding RJ:

There are a huge number of non-White characters. It is just difficult to get that because the geographical distribution of skin color is not similar to our world at all, given how every race got mixed in the Age of Legends.

But, IIRC, the Sea Folk are all mostly described as very dark skinned, the Tairens have people with very dark skin, but also a few who are white skinned (Siuan being one of those, though a Tairen Sitter for the Hall is described as having very dark skin). The Domani are all brown skinned, the Altarans are mostly olive skinned/Mediterranean, the Saldeans seem to have Mongolian bone structure with Arab/Caucasian coloring, the Seanchan range through very different skin tones, with Tuon herself being very dark skinned.

Among the Foresaken, the original Ishamael was brown skinned (IIRC). Rhavin and Semirhage were black, Moghedien was brown, Balthamel Mediterranean, etc.

There's a lot of diversity in skin color, but it is rarely commented upon because skin color doesn't seem to matter to any of the characters. Mat, for example, is more worried about Tuon's views on slavery and damane than her skin color, for all that there aren't any black-skinned people in Tar Valon. I'd call that exactly the opposite of racist.

[Happy Ent]

Really, the more I think about it and recall the accusations thrown at Bakker for hating women, […]

A propos this thread, Bakker’s Second Apocalypse novels would be a good example of Epic Fantasy not set in faux medieval Europe (or Disney medieval Europe).

(That being said, I find the criticism of neglecting cultures from our own world in secondary world fantasy absurd, inane, morally questionable, and boring. Even the criticism of neglecting ethnicities – as if racial admixture, or our conceptualisation of racial categories, or, indeed, the conceptualisation of the anglosphere (Asians, “minorities”) in a fictional world is supposed to follow our own world’s.)

[Happy Ent]

I think some people need to refresh themselves on what racism actually is.

Because writing a novel with an all white cast or creating a fantasy land for of white folk is not racist.

Internet debates about what “racism” really means are boring. Like discussing “feminism” or if Star Wars is science fiction or not.

Racism is just a word, used sometimes as an insult, and mostly to signal coalitional alignment. It means nothing anymore.

It’s easier to just shrug it off and get to the issue.

[Shryke]

Regarding RJ:

There are a huge number of non-White characters. It is just difficult to get that because the geographical distribution of skin color is not similar to our world at all, given how every race got mixed in the Age of Legends.

But, IIRC, the Sea Folk are all mostly described as very dark skinned, the Tairens have people with very dark skin, but also a few who are white skinned (Siuan being one of those, though a Tairen Sitter for the Hall is described as having very dark skin). The Domani are all brown skinned, the Altarans are mostly olive skinned/Mediterranean, the Saldeans seem to have Mongolian bone structure with Arab/Caucasian coloring, the Seanchan range through very different skin tones, with Tuon herself being very dark skinned.

Among the Foresaken, the original Ishamael was brown skinned (IIRC). Rhavin and Semirhage were black, Moghedien was brown, Balthamel Mediterranean, etc.

There's a lot of diversity in skin color, but it is rarely commented upon because skin color doesn't seem to matter to any of the characters. Mat, for example, is more worried about Tuon's views on slavery and damane than her skin color, for all that there aren't any black-skinned people in Tar Valon. I'd call that exactly the opposite of racist.

Yeah, seriously. I think in the rush to skip over the clothing descriptions, alot of you missed the (admittedly not frequent) decriptions of skin colour.

[polishgenius]

Interesting discussion, I just want to point out that one of the greatest fantasy series - 'Malazan Book of the Fallen' by S.Erikson has many MAJOR black characters, not just dark skinned but black. Kalam and Quick Ben are just two of them and they are among my favourites (first - ultracool assassin, second ultracool 'wizard').

It's amazing how many people get to like book 5 without realising Quick Ben and Kalam are black, though. And that several (human) characters are blue.