Neglected cultures in Scifi and Fantasy

[Sci-2]

Datepalm -> I think some people might have taken issue with the idea that Martin had committed some intentional evil by not including minority races more heavily, and that he should because he lives in the US.

At the same time, yeah, the insensitivity to the OP seemed a bit beyond the pale.

[-42-]

Books written by white guys tend to be about white guys. Not sure if much more elaboration is needed.

Though I did just read The Black Prism, which has a bi-racial protagonist.

[Eurytus]

I started a couple of posts on why condescending to someone for feeling underrepresented, given that *you* feel just fine, is, to put it mildly, shortsighted, but I got annoyed, so I'll just take this opportunity to rec good books i've read lately featuring someone other than white people instead.

Could you elaborate exactly how stating that the vast majority of fantasy is a thinly veiled pastiche of various stages of pre-medieval European countries and therefore wouldn't be expected to finish non-European-like characters is "shortsighted" or "condescending"?

To my mind if you're writing a thinly veiled fantasy effectively set in Europe in the year 500 AD it would be more condescending to shoehorn in some non-European characters for the sake of modern sensibilities or to fulfil some kind of quota.

[Lummel]

The OPs point is still valid.

It's not obligatory, it's the author's choice to set the story in this fantasy europe of AD 500 rather than in a fantasy medieval spain, or fantasy medieval Bagdad, or a fantasy medieval upper reaches of the Volga (were Arab traders meet Tatars who meet finno-ugric shamen who meet vikings who meet proto-russians), or a fantasy medieval kingdom of Prester John (& given the medieval enthusiasm for the kingdom of prester John which may or may not have been the Christian kingdom of Ethiopia it's surprising that this never features as a fantasy setting/quest destination).

Given that the modern US writer is surrounded by people of different races why is LeGuin's decision to have a Polynesian / native american feel for much of Earthsea so unusual? I always think that the Martians in Bradbury's Martian chronicles are a kind of homage to the crushing of the native americans which kind of makes me wonder if the reason for the relative whiteness of fantasy is that there are too many ghosts in reality and it's all too difficult to deal with? Anything to do with race seems to be explosive in the USA and I can imagine a lot of writers just are very shy of that and not want to run the risk of writing something that will end up kicking up a lot of controversy.

[Datepalm]

Datepalm -> I think some people might have taken issue with the idea that Martin had committed some intentional evil by not including minority races more heavily, and that he should because he lives in the US.

At the same time, yeah, the insensitivity to the OP seemed a bit beyond the pale.

Could you elaborate exactly how stating that the vast majority of fantasy is a thinly veiled pastiche of various stages of pre-medieval European countries and therefore wouldn't be expected to finish non-European-like characters is "shortsighted" or "condescending"?

To my mind if you're writing a thinly veiled fantasy effectively set in Europe in the year 500 AD it would be more condescending to shoehorn in some non-European characters for the sake of modern sensibilities or to fulfil some kind of quota.

Well, the two aren't contradictory - theres writers that do interesting stuff with the psuedo-european pastiche, by drawing on its psuedo europeanism in some particular way (ASOIAF for one, with its historic resonances and engagement with chivalry as an ideology. I'm not bothered that Valente's Deathless (Russia in WW2) or Mary Robinette Kowal's Shades of Milk and Honey (Psuedo-Austen) are all white either). But then a lot are just kind of boring and show a lack of imagination, and one the more problematic ways in which this tends to express itself is with an it-just-so-happens-to-be-white-people-only world.

Theres plenty of series that have fuck all to do with any kind of historical europe that I recognize (WOT much, with the psuedo-Islamic architecture and psuedo-Japanese fashions? How about Dragonlance, with blonde and blue eyes psuedo-native americans? Eddings, who has two continents filled entirely with good white people and bad, er, vaugely asian, I think people? (This last one is a big IIRC though.)) and are all-white anyway.

OTOH, I think theres plenty of authors that have varied-colored people in fantasy worlds, and others that do fine with race in real world contexts, i'm not slamming the entire genre here, but I see where the OP is coming from. (I find it nice to have the ocasional psuedo-Jew, or psuedo- East European turn up too, to be honest.)

I wish I could say ASOIAF is all sunshine in this aspect, but given its huge cast and multi continent span, that we've had virtually no non-white characters of any significance is I think a bit problematic, way at the outset of the conception of the thing where GRRM decided that a big chunk of his story was going to be about a vision of Aryan perfection leading armies of savage brown people (that she civilizes..) about, while building up her arc in such a way that none of them have had real personalities yet becuase theres some thematic or plot reason for her to be isolated or becuase western people conveniently turn up to be her friend instead. :dunno: Jury's still out, granted.

or a fantasy medieval upper reaches of the Volga (were Arab traders meet Tatars who meet finno-ugric shamen who meet vikings who meet proto-russians),

Oh, hi there half written abandoned novel #5 (I actually have 20k odd of this written, which is as far as I've ever gotten.)

[sologdin]

well, tolkien is a racist, and robert jordan is a racist sellout.

[kauldron26]

I appreciate the informative responses. But my question remains, why is it upsetting to some people when this issue comes up? Why has this continued to go on? I am not saying that I want Nigerian fantasy, I can get that i Nigeria. I've lived in the US most of my life, why don't more American authors who are WHITE write more speculative fiction that is more inclusive and reflects today's world? What are the limitations? Why is it such a foreign idea when dwarfs, magic, monsters and dragons are not? Why are certain people so quick to get angry when fans ask this of the genre we all love?

[jdiddyesquire]

I appreciate the informative responses. But my question remains, why is it upsetting to some people when this issue comes up? Why has this continued to go on? I am not saying that I want Nigerian fantasy, I can get that i Nigeria. I've lived in the US all my most of my life, why don't more authors here who are WHITE not write more speculative fiction that is more inclusive and reflects today's world. Why are certain people so quick to get angry when fans ask this of the genre we all love?

It's not just the genre we love, it's all genres. White people are more heavily represented in every form of media. Period. There are more white consumers also.

Race is always a hot button issue and people react viscerally to it.

[Lummel]

It's not just the genre we love, it's all genres. White people are more heavily represented in every form of media. Period. There are more white consumers also.

Race is always a hot button issue and people react viscerally to it.

Aye. Outside of The Wire there's hardly a role for a black person that isn't one of: magical old black man, abused black woman, random criminal #3 or Shaft style hardman.

It doesn't help Kauldron that your Nigerian fantasy doesn't make it into the bookshops of other english reading countries - that might create more a demand amongst customers but also might well inspire authors with something that's a bit different and spark off some new ideas.

[jdiddyesquire]

Aye. Outside of The Wire there's hardly a role for a black person that isn't one of: magical old black man, abused black woman, random criminal #3 or Shaft style hardman.

It doesn't help Kauldron that your Nigerian fantasy doesn't make it into the bookshops of other english reading countries - that might create more a demand amongst customers but also might well inspire authors with something that's a bit different and spark off some new ideas.

Well, and you can make the argument that The Wire didn't exactly do any favors to the perception of the black community among white America.

[kauldron26]

Aye. Outside of The Wire there's hardly a role for a black person that isn't one of: magical old black man, abused black woman, random criminal #3 or Shaft style hardman.

It doesn't help Kauldron that your Nigerian fantasy doesn't make it into the bookshops of other english reading countries - that might create more a demand amongst customers but also might well inspire authors with something that's a bit different and spark off some new ideas.

"The Wire" arguably the greatest piece of fiction IMHO shows us that stories can be told about everyone without limitations, and can be truly powerful. However, David Simon's vision is grounded in the reality of modern day world and is quite literally, the opposite of fantasy.

"Who fears death" was written by Nnedi Okorafor (she's Nigerian American like me). The novel has been gaining momentum and growing a fanbase. You also have authors like my GGK and Dan Simmons(my favorite authors) who are willing to research into other cultures and give us stories that are truly magnificent. I just wish there were more authors that were increasing their perspectives of speculative fiction.

[emberling]

why don't more American authors who are WHITE write more speculative fiction that is more inclusive and reflects today's world?

To put it more bluntly: because we don't care. Being inclusive is not a thing that interests us. Do we want to be exclusive? Probably not. But neither do we want to go the extra mile.

Should we care? "Yes" is the obvious answer, but I'm not convinced. Our stories are inspired by the world we see. They reflect our world. If my world (my own personal perspective) isn't diverse, is that a reflection of my faults, or is that a reflection of society's faults? Maybe to the first, but definitely to the second. (Should I spend my time attacking my preconceptions and beating down the conditioning of a lifetime, or should I spend my time writing the best fiction I can, Eurocentric though that may be? Neither is wholly right; neither is wholly wrong.)

I'll say it again: show people the wonders of other cultures, and the stories will come. Translating good fiction seems an excellent place to start.

[kauldron26]

To put it more bluntly: because we don't care. Being inclusive is not a thing that interests us. Do we want to be exclusive? Probably not. But neither do we want to go the extra mile.

Should we care? "Yes" is the obvious answer, but I'm not convinced. Our stories are inspired by the world we see. They reflect our world. If my world (my own personal perspective) isn't diverse, is that a reflection of my faults, or is that a reflection of society's faults? Maybe to the first, but definitely to the second. (Should I spend my time attacking my preconceptions and beating down the conditioning of a lifetime, or should I spend my time writing the best fiction I can, Eurocentric though that may be? Neither is wholly right; neither is wholly wrong.)

I'll say it again: show people the wonders of other cultures, and the stories will come. Translating good fiction seems an excellent place to start.

Your point is unfortunate, but valid. You can write the best fiction you want, it doesn't change the fact that some fans will always feel alienated. But then I guess by embracing apathy, it limits any impact on the authors. Also since the majority of fans could care less about these issues that some of us bring up, it really doesn't matter in the long run. That's pretty fucking messed up. It makes sense, but its still fubar.

[Sci-2]

I'm curious, why are "WHITE" people obligated to go the extra mile? I mean, there is a short story in Interpreter of Maladies about a white girl who ends up being a side-dish for a married Indian man -> Couldn't we accuse Jhumpa Lahiri of casting a white person in a negative role?

What I want is diverse, original fantasy or fantasy that takes the usual road and throws in twists. I will also take fantasy that does the same-old but does it really well. At the same time, I identify with characters that are most like me mentally. I've never been a prostitute but identified most with Serwe and Esmi in PoN, never been a black woman but truly fell into the character of Sethe in Beloved.

It is hard to write good stuff period, harder to write something when you are trying to do so out of guilt, liberal or otherwise. Authors who try can end up being accused of "white-washing" a minority character, creating a caricature, etc. See straight authors that included gay characters.

For example, it has taken me a LONG time to understand perspectives of different cultures, classes, gender, sexual orientation. I still have trouble understanding people who worship a God that sends non-believers to a place that makes concentration camps look like carnivals.

I'm sure it is just hard for most people who are honest with themselves. I mean, we could ask Martin to write about the romance between Loras and Rently, but I wonder if he could capture the reality of such a relationship. Perhaps, perhaps not.

The challenge here is what does the inclusion of such a character do for the story? Writers of urban/modern fantasy like Gaiman find it easier, Gaiman's talent I think is based on examining the mixing of mythology. If several Asian or African based characters showed up in Westeros, I would want to know what they are doing there.

Datepalm, you definitely bring up a good example with regard to Dany and her Dothraki. That does lean into the white person civilizing the brown trope, something that does require reflection.

[Tormund Ukrainesbane]

why don't more American authors who are WHITE write more speculative fiction that is more inclusive and reflects today's world?

Are you sure you want speculative fiction that reflects today's world? African-Americans and Latinos commit 90% of the murders (and represent 90% of the victims) in New York City. In today's America they represent a huge (and it looks more and more likely permanent) socioeconomic underclass. Could an author write that into a speculative environment and survive? Huge portions of Africa and Central/Southern Asia are barely advanced beyond barbarism. Can you honestly expect someone who wants to sell books to portray that?

[kauldron26]

Are you sure you want speculative fiction that reflects today's world? African-Americans and Latinos commit 90% of the murders (and represent 90% of the victims) in New York City. In today's America they represent a huge (and it looks more and more likely permanent) socioeconomic underclass. Could an author write that into a speculative environment and survive? Huge portions of Africa and Central/Southern Asia are barely advanced beyond barbarism. Can you honestly expect someone who wants to sell books to portray that?

First off, your statistics are flawed, ignorant and inaccurate on multiple different levels. If you're going to make an argument using data, back it up with CDC and morbidity/mortality reports. Also the fact that you just stated that folks from African and Southern Asia are barely beyond barbarism is not just wrong, it is foolish. Poverty and corruption do not equal barbarism. I was hoping for a debate or a civil conversation, not insults and ignorant slinging.

@sciborg, you asked why are white people obligated to go the extra mile? because white authors are the most prevalent in speculative fiction. As much as a foreign or ethnic author can write a fantastic story, unfortunately more often than not, they are categorized in another sub-genre that is not exposed to the same amount of folks. Whereas if Major white authors who had large followings were to increase their perspective, the idea of a more diverse fantasy perspective would be more main stream. Case in Point, Octavia Butler is considered one of the great scifi authors, but how many people on this board have read her novels compared to Frank Herbert? Ironically, Frank Herbert was another author that embraced and infused other cultures into his world. And this was in 1965.

[Datepalm]

Are you sure you want speculative fiction that reflects today's world? African-Americans and Latinos commit 90% of the murders (and represent 90% of the victims) in New York City. In today's America they represent a huge (and it looks more and more likely permanent) socioeconomic underclass. Could an author write that into a speculative environment and survive? Huge portions of Africa and Central/Southern Asia are barely advanced beyond barbarism. Can you honestly expect someone who wants to sell books to portray that?

Eh? Are books featuring blacks/latinos/etc in any other role than victims or villains therefore...unrealistic?I have hears of writers that try writing social issues or even, like, imagining different realities, but I guess they're not in Science Fiction and Fantasy. Or are you saying books should only be written about nice, happy things and places? Never took you for a rainbows and unicorns man, Tormund, but I hear the new My Little Pony is really good.

[Nukelavee]

And Kevin shows us an example of how to use facts to be misleading...

Barbaric? I'm pretty certain by many standards, the inner city "culture" of crime and drugs and gangs would count as barbaric, including what whitie gets up to. Conditions in the former eastern bloc are pretty barbaric, by many accepted uses of teh word.

Blacks and hispanics don't really make up a huge underclass...although they may make up a large portion of teh underclass that exists and includes whites.

So far as the OP's question goes...because people tell the stories they know, in the styles they know. There's also the threat of being put down for not writing an accurate portrayal of another race, or simply failing at it.

[Sci-2]

I'm curious about these large portions of barbarians in these foreign lands, assuming Kevin's understanding of the world is coming from more than Ducktales and Indiana Jones movies.

[Eurytus]

Also the fact that you just stated that folks from African and Southern Asia are barely beyond barbarism is not just wrong, it is foolish. Poverty and corruption do not equal barbarism. I was hoping for a debate or a civil conversation, not insults and ignorant slinging.

No. He did not state that folks from Africa and Southern Asia are barely beyond barbarism so please don't use lies to bolster your argument.

He stated that vast areas of those places are. And I don't see how that can be disputed.