Evidence to Discredit "R+L=J" Thread

[Noir Dove]

I would LOVE for someone to come up with good, solid evidence against R+L=J. The only rebuts I have seen have been what people think Ned is all about, or what Ned would or would not do. The fact is, we don't know wtf happened at the Tower of Joy or why Ned brought this little boy bundle back to Winterfell.

At this point I'm in the R+L=J camp, simply because that's where the evidence is. But this, so far, is my favorite mystery of the books and I'm so ready to know the answer I won't even care if I'm in the right camp or not!

[History of Westeros]

Also, it must always be pointed out that the overwhelming amount of evidence in the book points to Ashara Dayne being Jon's mother.

This is borderline trolling, lol.

[Arryk]

This isn't rhetorical. I'm honestly curious. Has there been any evidence given for that other than Ashara committing suicide around the same time and people making assumptions? Always seemed like a red herring to me.

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

There's also the obvious admiration from Eddard calling Arthur Dayne "the finest knight he ever saw" and having obvious remorse after killing the brother of the woman he truly loved.

Combined with the knowledge that Eddard only married Catelyn in his brothers place to solidify the union of Tully and Stark. Even the most honorable of men can forget their honor when love is involved (Arys Oakheart).

[Aegon's Landing]

This is borderline trolling, lol.

Agreed. This entire thread, to be honest. Still waiting for someone to "compile the evidence here"

And I did read your last post, Arryk. You provide evidence of affection, nothing more. Ned and Ashara may have been a mutual affection, and her reaction could have been due to Ned's marriage and loss of a future dream as anything else.

We have enough of an idea of Ned's personality to consider the fact that he respected Arthur for being Arthur, a legendary knight that was known throughout the realm. His last name could have been Sand, and the admiration would still be there.

[Dragonfish]

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

There's also the obvious admiration from Eddard calling Arthur Dayne "the finest knight he ever saw" and having obvious remorse after killing the brother of the woman he truly loved.

Combined with the knowledge that Eddard only married Catelyn in his brothers place to solidify the union of Tully and Stark. Even the most honorable of men can forget their honor when love is involved (Arys Oakheart).

How exactly does this one quote you found amount to "overwhelming evidence" that Ashara is Jon's mother?

[Xenophon]

"The crannogman saw a maid with laughing purple eyes dance with a white sword, a red snake, and the lord of griffins, and lastly with the quiet wolf . . . but only after the wild wolf spoke to her on behalf of a brother too shy to leave his bench."

There's also the obvious admiration from Eddard calling Arthur Dayne "the finest knight he ever saw" and having obvious remorse after killing the brother of the woman he truly loved.

Combined with the knowledge that Eddard only married Catelyn in his brothers place to solidify the union of Tully and Stark. Even the most honorable of men can forget their honor when love is involved (Arys Oakheart).

Well, yes, the Ned had an affair with Ashara theory is popular. But that's hardly overwhelming evidence that she is Jon's mother (especially since it doesn't easily fit the timeline if Jon were conceived before the war started, and it's hard to find another time for it to happen later, since she has to kill herself fairly soon after the war ended).

[Arryk]

How exactly does this one quote you found amount to "overwhelming evidence" that Ashara is Jon's mother?

Sorry, I should have added the fact that Wylla was Ned Dayne's wetnurse and Eddard's very early conversation with Robert about their indiscretions.

I'm not pulling your leg here, maybe I'm stupid but I really never questioned the idea that Ashara was Jon's mother until I read the posts in this forum.

[Dragonfish]

Sorry, I should have added the fact that Wylla was Ned Dayne's wetnurse and Eddard's very early conversation with Robert about their indiscretions.

I'm sorry, how do those episodes support N+A=J?

Even if you considered those events to be evidence that Ashara is Jon's mother, that still doesn't beat the amount of evidence for R+L=J. In fact, it probably doesn't even beat the evidence for N+W=J, since we have two characters in the books who outright state that Wylla is the mother.

[Galen M]

This isn't rhetorical. I'm honestly curious. Has there been any evidence given for that other than Ashara committing suicide around the same time and people making assumptions? Always seemed like a red herring to me.

They danced together at the Tourney at Harrenhal, Jon was clearly at Starfall at one point, lots of other hints. I personally think it's 75/25 to RLJ/NAJ.

[Arryk]

Well, yes, the Ned had an affair with Ashara theory is popular. But that's hardly overwhelming evidence that she is Jon's mother (especially since it doesn't easily fit the timeline if Jon were conceived before the war started, and it's hard to find another time for it to happen later, since she has to kill herself fairly soon after the war ended).

Yeah, in my head I always imagined that Ashara jumped off the tower upon hearing of her brother's death at the hands of the man she loved. Then when Eddard went to deliver the Sword of the Morning the wetnurse Wylla came to him with Jon telling him what happened to Ashara. It seemed completely plausible to me, and still does. AS WELL AS R+L=J. I'm just saying there is room for doubt, it was just the truth I had in my head all through my reading.

[Galen M]

I'm sorry, how do those episodes support N+A=J?

Even if you considered those events to be evidence that Ashara is Jon's mother, that still doesn't beat the amount of evidence for R+L=J. In fact, it probably doesn't even beat the evidence for N+W=J, since we have two characters in the books who outright state that Wylla is the mother.

I think it is a fair theory that there were two bastards among the Stark get. One between Ned and Ashara, the other between Rhaegar and Lyanna. One returned with Ned to Winterfell, the other fled across the Narrow Sea with Ashara. It could easily be that either child went either direction. Granted, I'm a staunch RLJ supporter, but I've seen no evidence to discredit the aforementioned theory, and I'm surprised that RLJ opponents don't argue it more commonly. It addresses most of the main points in favor of RLJ.

[BarrileteCosmico]

My sister looks like my aunt. Are you suggesting anything?

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

They danced together at the Tourney at Harrenhal, Jon was clearly at Starfall at one point, lots of other hints. I personally think it's 75/25 to RLJ/NAJ.

I forgot about the quote above. Practical stuff: What would be the timeline of N+A=J, though? If Jon was conceived during/before Robert's Rebellion, when would Ned and Ashara have been together? Weren't the Daynes fighting with Dorne for Aerys? I guess we haven't necessarily met anyone who would've known and mentioned if Ashara had been pregnant that year, but wouldn't Robert (who believed Wylla was the mother) have noticed if Ashara Dayne was around the camp during the war or if Ned had had an affair with her before? Were they ever really apart during that time period?

Story stuff: The theory for why Ashara killed herself would be because her lover killed her brother? Her brother, who along with other members of the Kingsguard was with Lyanna instead of a member of the royal family because .. ? I don't see how it serves a story purpose for Ashara to have been Jon's mother or why it wouldn't have been revealed by now if she had been. Unless it has something to do with the Darkstar but what would that be?

[Arryk]

I think it is a fair theory that there were two bastards among the Stark get. One between Ned and Ashara, the other between Rhaegar and Lyanna. One returned with Ned to Winterfell, the other fled across the Narrow Sea with Ashara. It could easily be that either child went either direction. Granted, I'm a staunch RLJ supporter, but I've seen no evidence to discredit the aforementioned theory, and I'm surprised that RLJ opponents don't argue it more commonly. It addresses most of the main points in favor of RLJ.

I guess for me it was just much more simple. When at the end of explaining the Tourney at Harrenhal story Bran asks what happened after and one of the Reed children comments saying something like "that's a sadder story" which to me meant Lyanna and Ashara died. I guess after Ned got his head chopped off I wasn't really leaving hope alive for characters I assumed dead.

[Arryk]

I forgot about the quote above. Practical stuff: What would be the timeline of N+A=J, though? If Jon was conceived during/before Robert's Rebellion, when would Ned and Ashara have been together? Weren't the Daynes fighting with Dorne for Aerys? I guess we haven't necessarily met anyone who would've known and mentioned if Ashara had been pregnant that year, but wouldn't Robert (who believed Wylla was the mother) have noticed if Ashara Dayne was around the camp during the war or if Ned had had an affair with her before? Were they ever really apart during that time period?

Story stuff: The theory for why Ashara killed herself would be because her lover killed her brother? Her brother, who along with other members of the Kingsguard was with Lyanna instead of a member of the royal family because .. ? I don't see how it serves a story purpose for Ashara to have been Jon's mother or why it wouldn't have been revealed by now if she had been. Unless it has something to do with the Darkstar but what would that be?

I think I remember someone saying that GRRM had commented saying something along the lines of "Ashara Dayne was not nailed to the floor of Starfall" meaning she wasn't necessarily there the whole time.

As far as story stuff, I had kinda held the hope that perhaps the Sword of the Morning was the Light Bringer and Jon might wield it.

[Dragonfish]

I forgot about the quote above. Practical stuff: What would be the timeline of N+A=J, though? If Jon was conceived during/before Robert's Rebellion, when would Ned and Ashara have been together? Weren't the Daynes fighting with Dorne for Aerys? I guess we haven't necessarily met anyone who would've known and mentioned if Ashara had been pregnant that year, but wouldn't Robert (who believed Wylla was the mother) have noticed if Ashara Dayne was around the camp during the war or if Ned had had an affair with her before? Were they ever really apart during that time period?

Jon was conceived a few months into the war. In order for Ashara to be the mother, she and Ned would have had to meet at some point while the Rebellion was raging, despite technically being on opposite sides of the conflict. Not impossible, but a bit...implausible, I guess is the right word.

[Aegon's Landing]

I guess for me it was just much more simple. When at the end of explaining the Tourney at Harrenhal story Bran asks what happened after and one of the Reed children comments saying something like "that's a sadder story" which to me meant Lyanna and Ashara died. I guess after Ned got his head chopped off I wasn't really leaving hope alive for characters I assumed dead.

I had considered before that there had been a switcheroo with Ned and Lyanna's kids, foreshadowed in reverse by Jon himself at the Wall in AFfC. It's a fair theory. Just as N+A=J alone. Just alot more vague support for any other when compared to R+L=J.

Your explanations are better than your examples, Arryk. I had forgotten about Jon and Starfall. I took that as a natural part of Ned and Jon's journey to return Dawn before returning to Winterfell. Wylla was a needed and convenient commodity at the time - a wetnurse with a spare boob.

[Dragonsworn]

As far as story stuff, I had kinda held the hope that perhaps the Sword of the Morning was the Light Bringer and Jon might wield it.

I wanted to believe this too. But then if Jon were to eventually receive Dawn what would be the point of Jon receiving Long Claw? I just don't see him getting two unique swords through the course of the whole series. But I think it would be awesome if Jon received Dawn.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

I wanted to believe this too. But then if Jon were to eventually receive Dawn what would be the point of Jon receiving Long Claw? I just don't see him getting two unique swords through the course of the whole series. But I think it would be awesome if Jon received Dawn.

It would make for a decent running joke if Jon had to feign excitement every time a new house presented him with their family sword. "This is most unexpected. I'm truly honored ... [aside] Just put it with the others, Sam."

That's a good point about Long Claw, though. That was important because since it's Valyrian steel he can kill Others with it, right? I suppose Dawn is a more likely candidate for Lightbringer status but hasn't there been speculation that what the "Lightbringer" is might be as figurative or open to interpretation / misunderstood as the "Prince that was Promised?" And how would Dawn get to Jon? Well, Sam might not be far away from it now ..

There's still too much to explain if R+L does not = J, but trying to support N+A=J could be fun, I admit.

[Arryk]

I wanted to believe this too. But then if Jon were to eventually receive Dawn what would be the point of Jon receiving Long Claw? I just don't see him getting two unique swords through the course of the whole series. But I think it would be awesome if Jon received Dawn.

House Stark needs a new family sword...but yeah I agree there's a huge hole in the argument, I can't really imagine Jon setting Longclaw aside considering it would be like a slap in the face to the Old Bear and the Mormont family as a whole.

Though him being of Dayne and Stark and Dany being Targaryen would make for an uber marriage without icky incest stuff.