Evidence to Discredit "R+L=J" Thread

[Dragonsworn]

It would make for a decent running joke if Jon had to feign excitement every time a new house presented him with their family sword. "This is most unexpected. I'm truly honored ... [aside] Just put it with the others, Sam."

HA! love it.

[jfrenchy]

i never knew about the R+L=J theory until i saw it online, so excuse me for being really new to the topic, but one thing i've read often enough concerning it is statements that 'almost' say that ned never says jon is his son, which can easily be overlooked when looking at the whole series, but in the first book in the first chapter ned refers to rob and job as his sons.

so not to dismiss everything else, as there is a lot of very interesting clues and bits of information for the R+L=J, just that the often cited 'he's my blood' instead of 'he's my son' statements by eddard stark isn't 100% accurate

[Galen M]

i never knew about the R+L=J theory until i saw it online, so excuse me for being really new to the topic, but one thing i've read often enough concerning it is statements that 'almost' say that ned never says jon is his son, which can easily be overlooked when looking at the whole series, but in the first book in the first chapter ned refers to rob and job as his sons.

so not to dismiss everything else, as there is a lot of very interesting clues and bits of information for the R+L=J, just that the often cited 'he's my blood' instead of 'he's my son' statements by eddard stark isn't 100% accurate

they were talking about the quotes to Catelyn and to Jon himeslf (maybe TV only). Anyway, he obviously told people Jon was his son, as people think that.

[Aegon's Landing]

Dunno bout TV only...but the series sure ignored the Tower of Joy like it never happened. disturbing.

[zmflavius]

Dunno bout TV only...but the series sure ignored the Tower of Joy like it never happened. disturbing.

I think the reason for this is, because, frankly, it's not actually that important. It's critical to the R+L=J theory, which is one of the crown jewels of the fandom, but plot-wise, it has virtually no relevance. Whoever Jon's parents really are, it's not really important ATM, because for all intents and purposes, he is Ned's bastard, even if it happens to pass that R+L=J is true. R+L=J, if true, may be revealed in ADWD, but I don't think there is any guarantee of this, and it's going to be several years away anyhow. You have a year for ACOK, and probably two years for ASOS, plus however much time it takes for the AFFC time period to reach it. And then, for the information to actually be remotely plot-relevant, it will take more time. They could easily shoe-horn all the relevant info in with Meera and Jojen, as part of another story, like, say, "The Story of the Tower of Joy."

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

Dunno bout TV only...but the series sure ignored the Tower of Joy like it never happened. disturbing.

I think that can be explained by a shortage of screen time and an unwillingness to try to get a flashback across when the audience would have to wait several seasons to have its true meaning explained. They're already going to have to wait 2 seasons to see any kind of resolution on who hired the assassin to kill Bran. If, as believed, Howland Reed is the one to reveal that R+L=J, he could easily do so at the same time as he would in the books. It might come off like a bit of a retcon but it'd still play better than teasing the viewing audience several seasons ahead of time (as readers have been).

I was so confident that R+L=J from the Tower of Joy flashback on that it's been a bit of a distraction in the Jon storyline. I'm sure it would be for a TV audience, too. So, I can understand why they made that change.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

They could easily shoe-horn all the relevant info in with Meera and Jojen, as part of another story, like, say, "The Story of the Tower of Joy."

I like this idea (though maybe this is something for the TV show forum). Fill out Bran's Season 2 storyline with a few Godfather II-style flashbacks. Preferably shown, not told. The Tournament at Harrenhal, the Tower of Joy from Howland Reed's POV?, etc. That would also help appease the people who miss Ned. "The Young Ned Stark Chronicles." Heh.

[Lord Damian]

People forget, The Targaryens married the Royal succession line direct to keep the line pure, the ones that wear the crown all had silver hair as a result, If a Targ mated with another house/family with different traits, they might well resemble the other house if their traits happen to be more dominant. The Baratheons are an example of this. If Jon Snow is not the son of Rheagar and Lyanna then it is the greatest curveball thrown in this entire series.

[Corvinus85]

Right. The two "official" / non-elderly Targaryens with Targaryen features were Viserys and Dany. They were both the product of a brother/sister union. I don't know of any source that's said the Targaryen "seed" is as "strong" as the Baratheon (if there is one, someone please correct me), so who's to say that a child of a Targaryen and non-Targaryen wouldn't have non-Targaryen features?

Actually I think there is one piece of evidence that says that the Baratheon seed is stronger. I believe Robert's grandmother (or great-grandmoter) was Targaryen (the reason that gave Robert the best claim to the throne), and still all the Baratheons kept the same look.

[SD Stark]

I'm just curious where the overwhelming evidence is that clearly proves Jon is Lyanna's son. I've read these books, and while I readily admit that the book has presented the possibility of Jon being the offspring of Lyanna and Rhaegar, nowhere have I read anything that utterly proves it. I'm still of the opinion that Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, and there's enough there in the books to make it possible.

However, to be honest, most of the time it's pointless to even bring up other ideas because it degenerates into, "How can you be so stupid to actually believe Jon is not Rhaegar's son? All the evidence points to that, and it won't make sense if it's not true. In fact, if Jon winds up being Ned's son, then I believe Martin changed it because we all figured it out!"

It's really pointless to offer opinions or ideas when faced with that kind of objectivity.

[Millardkillmoore]

?+?=Jon is one of the biggest mysteries in the series. Readers have been trying to guess Jon's parentage since very early in the first book. I think Martin knew full well this would be the case. So, then, why is R+L=J so obvious? Everything falls into place snugly. Perhaps too snugly. Maybe it's just me, but the whole theory is so obvious, so easy to figure out that I think it must be a red herring. Maybe you're all right and R+L=J. But I have to think that Martin wouldn't have made it so easy to guess. Count me in the skeptics on this one.

For the record, my theory is Lyanna+Arthur Dayne= Jon. I know there's no real evidence for it, but I think that it is possible within the timeline and my gut tells me it's true.

[Wik]

I'm just curious where the overwhelming evidence is that clearly proves Jon is Lyanna's son. I've read these books, and while I readily admit that the book has presented the possibility of Jon being the offspring of Lyanna and Rhaegar, nowhere have I read anything that utterly proves it. I'm still of the opinion that Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, and there's enough there in the books to make it possible.

However, to be honest, most of the time it's pointless to even bring up other ideas because it degenerates into, "How can you be so stupid to actually believe Jon is not Rhaegar's son? All the evidence points to that, and it won't make sense if it's not true. In fact, if Jon winds up being Ned's son, then I believe Martin changed it because we all figured it out!"

It's really pointless to offer opinions or ideas when faced with that kind of objectivity.

I'm a staunch supporter on RLJ but I agree that sometimes happens. Thing is, like this thread in particular, someone comes along, claims RLJ is dumb and has proof why, then posts some random crackpot theory or literally re-hashes the same exact argument of 150 other board members who don't support RLJ and thinks they made a great topic. I support RLJ but I want healthy competitive talks from folks here that refute that claim. The issue is, RLJ has been so popular and has sooooo many little bits that have been found and recited, while N+A=J may seem more feasible to you but lacks support (read support and thorough research from forum members, not support from the books).

Basically, most of us that believe RLJ are not gonna stop just because a random fellow board members says, "I read in AGoT that Jon has dark hair and Ned fought the Targs so he must have hated them and so why would his sister run away with a Targ?! Jon must be Ned and Ashara's!"

Those OMMGBBQKITTENS kind of comments don't hold weight and they shouldn't. I was excited to read this thread initially because I thought someone had finally got off their duff, or maybe on it in the case of reading lol, and wrote this stuff down and presented it in a reasonable fashion. I'm not asking for powerpoint slides and captions but I do need reasonable evidence along with theories.

After all this is a forum, when we stop talking about stuff, it isn't a forum to talk about stuff, anymore :thumbsup:

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

I'm just curious where the overwhelming evidence is that clearly proves Jon is Lyanna's son. I've read these books, and while I readily admit that the book has presented the possibility of Jon being the offspring of Lyanna and Rhaegar, nowhere have I read anything that utterly proves it. I'm still of the opinion that Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, and there's enough there in the books to make it possible.

My belief that R+L=J isn't based on evidence so much as it is what it would potentially add to the story and how if N+A=J it just makes so much more sense for that to have been revealed earlier. Say if Jon takes his vows then finds out (from any character at the Wall GRRM could have invented or changed; maybe from Benjen) that his mother was Ashara Dayne. Now he has this whole other family he's never known and, since he's stuck at the Wall, will never know. Later, when Sam travels to Oldtown, he could ask him to stop at Starfall on the way and find out what he can about his mother then send a raven. There. Added conflict for Jon, world building, etc.

There are so many questions if N+A=J that aren't there if R+L=J. But I don't think there's overwhelming evidence on either side. There is evidence on the side of N+A=J but it doesn't make as much sense to me as R+L=J does, primarily for story reasons.

[the andorran]

I'm just curious where the overwhelming evidence is that clearly proves Jon is Lyanna's son. I've read these books, and while I readily admit that the book has presented the possibility of Jon being the offspring of Lyanna and Rhaegar, nowhere have I read anything that utterly proves it. I'm still of the opinion that Jon is Ned and Ashara's son, and there's enough there in the books to make it possible.

However, to be honest, most of the time it's pointless to even bring up other ideas because it degenerates into, "How can you be so stupid to actually believe Jon is not Rhaegar's son? All the evidence points to that, and it won't make sense if it's not true. In fact, if Jon winds up being Ned's son, then I believe Martin changed it because we all figured it out!"

It's really pointless to offer opinions or ideas when faced with that kind of objectivity.

To be honest, that whole attitude is what really turns me off of R+L=J. I am perfectly open to R+L=J. There is plenty of evidence in support of it, and it would explain a lot of things. However, what bothers me about discussions about the theory is that any evidence that works against it gets shot down, as does any alternative but plausible theory. It's frustrating to have a real discussion about Jon's parentage because so many people just accept R+L=J as fact.

For a lot of people, it's the most compelling theory about Jon's parentage. That's fine. But it's not the only plausible theory, and personally, I don't like it much because I feel that it has potential to be way too neat, tidy, and convenient. That's nothing from the books, no real, hard evidence, but then, there isn't any solid evidence for any explanation of Jon's parentage. Full stop. There is speculation, some of it better than others, and there is foreshadowing and differing people's interpretations of it.

People have brought up the evidence that makes me unsure about R+L=J in other threads and I've seen it shot down or reinterpreted in a way that fits R+L=J. People will see what they want to see when things are up for interpretation.

[malarky1231]

If you want a full understanding of Jon's parentage, consult the ToH page and the Westerosi page on his possible parentage.

[Xenophon]

How has this thread made it to 3 pages without someone at least trying to give a list of the evidence for R+L=/=J? I want to see it!

[SD Stark]

Thanks for the civil replies. I used to discuss this issue a few years ago, but it quickly degenerated into less than civil and unprductive discourse, so I took an extremely long break from the board. However, some of the discussions were interesting.

Here's a rebuttal I had back then which was never truly addressed. Maybe you guys would like to take a stab at it. It's regarding the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy would seem to lend credence to the R+L=J theory, as they could be there protecting Rhaegar's son. Makes sense. However, many posters take this as the only reasonable explanation for the Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy. If we as readers are to assume that this is the only possible explanation for their presence at the Tower of Joy based on our knowledge of the Kingsguard and their duties, than we must accept that the people in Martin's world are also aware of this possibility. Yet, nobody has ever questioned the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, and that would seem to indicate that it's not the smoking gun some people assume it to be.

In the story, we've been introduced to a plethora of schemers, some better than others. In order for the Kingsguard's presence to remain unremarked, than there must be perfectly reasonable explanations for why the Kingsguard would be there that don't require the presence of a member of the royal family. Otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that someone would have taken notice and looked into it.

[Dragonfish]

I'm just curious where the overwhelming evidence is that clearly proves Jon is Lyanna's son.

Per malarky's post, see here and here (this is probably the tenth time I've posted these essays, I feel like such a broken record). I wouldn't say the evidence in these essays "clearly proves" R+L=J, but I do think they constitute "overwhelming evidence."

However, to be honest, most of the time it's pointless to even bring up other ideas because it degenerates into, "How can you be so stupid to actually believe Jon is not Rhaegar's son? All the evidence points to that, and it won't make sense if it's not true. In fact, if Jon winds up being Ned's son, then I believe Martin changed it because we all figured it out!"

A couple points:

1. Speaking as someone who admittedly can get a little overbearing in these conversations, I think that part of my frustration when debating people who believe differently stems from the fact that they tend to use the same "counter-arguments" over and over again. No matter how many times we refute the arguments that "Jon can't be Targ because he doesn't have silver hair!", or "Jon can't be a Targ because his hand got burned!", someone inevitably comes back and makes the same exact arguments (the OP is a perfect example of this). Sometimes, however, my frustration with these kinds of topics transfers over to people who really don't deserve my ire. If that's been your experience with me, then I apologize.

2. Regarding the very last thing you say in your point: I honestly don't remember anyone stating that if it turns out that R+L=/=J then George must have changed his mind. I've heard some people theorize that George might change his mind because of how popular the theory has become on message boards, but I've never seen them use the suggestion as an attempt to cover their asses. I think you're unfairly characterizing R+L=J supporters with that line.

[Lord Godric]

Thanks for the civil replies. I used to discuss this issue a few years ago, but it quickly degenerated into less than civil and unprductive discourse, so I took an extremely long break from the board. However, some of the discussions were interesting.

Here's a rebuttal I had back then which was never truly addressed. Maybe you guys would like to take a stab at it. It's regarding the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy would seem to lend credence to the R+L=J theory, as they could be there protecting Rhaegar's son. Makes sense. However, many posters take this as the only reasonable explanation for the Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy. If we as readers are to assume that this is the only possible explanation for their presence at the Tower of Joy based on our knowledge of the Kingsguard and their duties, than we must accept that the people in Martin's world are also aware of this possibility. Yet, nobody has ever questioned the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, and that would seem to indicate that it's not the smoking gun some people assume it to be.

In the story, we've been introduced to a plethora of schemers, some better than others. In order for the Kingsguard's presence to remain unremarked, than there must be perfectly reasonable explanations for why the Kingsguard would be there that don't require the presence of a member of the royal family. Otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that someone would have taken notice and looked into it.

I would think most people would believe they were there to protect the mistress of the heir apparent. Which is an acceptable answer when you aren't looking for something further. But knowing that the Kingsguard was not actually protecting the King or the King's wife or the new heir after Rhaegar was killed and the fact that is obviously holds some type of importance to the overall story, leads unbiased viewers like ourselves to question the true motives of the Kingsguard. Why they were there and why they fought to the death to keep Ned away from his own sister, quite frankly, seem to be questions that the readers are meant to ask. And "protecting Rhaegar's mistress" just isn't good enough an answer.

[Dragonfish]

Here's a rebuttal I had back then which was never truly addressed. Maybe you guys would like to take a stab at it. It's regarding the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy would seem to lend credence to the R+L=J theory, as they could be there protecting Rhaegar's son. Makes sense. However, many posters take this as the only reasonable explanation for the Kingsguard to be at the Tower of Joy. If we as readers are to assume that this is the only possible explanation for their presence at the Tower of Joy based on our knowledge of the Kingsguard and their duties, than we must accept that the people in Martin's world are also aware of this possibility. Yet, nobody has ever questioned the presence of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy, and that would seem to indicate that it's not the smoking gun some people assume it to be.

In the story, we've been introduced to a plethora of schemers, some better than others. In order for the Kingsguard's presence to remain unremarked, than there must be perfectly reasonable explanations for why the Kingsguard would be there that don't require the presence of a member of the royal family. Otherwise, I think it's safe to assume that someone would have taken notice and looked into it.

I'm actually on record as stating that the Kingsguard being at the Tower of Joy does not necessarily mean R+L=J. George has said in the past that they have a simple reason for being there: they follow orders. So really, they could have been there for any number of reasons if they somehow related to the orders Rhaegar gave them. That said, I do think their being there is strongly suggestive of R+L=J; I just don't think it's the only possible conclusion.

However, I don't think this point discredits R+L=J per se. To do that, I think you have to find evidence from the books that shows why R+L=J is not a possibility. For instance, if it were true that children of Targs always have silver hair, then the fact that Jon does not have silver hair would definitely discredit R+L=J. Or if we had evidence that Rhaegar was nowhere near Lyanna around the time Jon was conceived, then that would surely discredit R+L=J. However, showing how one piece of evidence in favor of the theory could be interpreted another way does not discredit the theory, at least according to how I interpret the word "discredit."