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Tyrion as a Targaryen

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I don't think loving whores or being a rapist are genetic traits.

Well loving whores may not be a genetic trait, I feel like womanizing could be to some extent, if not just a learned trait.

I think there's a lot of debate on your second point. No idea what side is right.

I just stated it because there are so many common features between Aerys, Jamie, Cersei and Joff while there are very few between Aerys and Tyrion. Tyrion, on the other hand, is like Tytos and Tywin. Tywin might have been a nicer guy if he didn't feel the need to overcompensate for his father's shortcomings.

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This was probably already mentioned. Tyrion as a Targ (while assuming Jon is also a Targ) would add more significance to the beginning of GoT when the two are together on the wall. Jon Snow, Tyrion, and Maester Aemon would have been a three headed dragon (the Targaryen banner) at the front line of the war that really mattered before the "game" in the South started to heat up.

I don't understand why some believe that Tyrion being Targaryen would diminish the power of his relationship with Tywin. I think it only enhances it. Tywin was always waiting for Jaime to come around and be heir to the Rock. Instead Jamie's only desire was to be with his twin sister, which is an expression of his narcissism because the books mention many times how similar they are to each other. It would be so much more ironic if Tyrion was a Targ because he was the only 1 of the 3 Lannisters with the intelligence like Tywin's to win the game of thrones and strengthen the Lannister dynasty.

Flip the last part on it's head. Imagine Tywin waiting all this time to pass the torch to Jamie, when he is actually a Targ bastard. At the same time Tywin has been ostracizing his only son and heir, Tyrion. There'd be egg all over Tywin's face.

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^"there are so many common features between Aerys, Jaime, Cersie, an Joff" Certainly none of them are physical



"Tyrion on the other hand, is like Tytos and Tywin." (Not even going to care to ask how he's similar to Tytos) And Jon is a lot more like Ned than Rhaegar, do you think he's Neds son?


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^"there are so many common features between Aerys, Jaime, Cersie, an Joff" Certainly none of them are physical(1)

"Tyrion on the other hand, is like Tytos and Tywin." (Not even going to care to ask how he's similar to Tytos(2)) And Jon is a lot more like Ned than Rhaegar, do you think he's Neds son?(3)

1. Well you could argue that Jamie has generally the same body type as Rhaegar, but I get the point. Their behavior is what is similar, which my post was alluding to (although I had just kept it to sexual affairs).

2. Whoring

3. He is Rhaegar's son. And I don't think your point is that strong. Many people point to the similarities, personality wise, between Jon and Rhaegar. Jon just doesn't look anything like the other Targs.

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1. Well you could argue that Jamie has generally the same body type as Rhaegar, but I get the point. Their behavior is what is similar, which my post was alluding to (although I had just kept it to sexual affairs).

2. Whoring

3. He is Rhaegar's son. And I don't think your point is that strong. Many people point to the similarities, personality wise, between Jon and Rhaegar. Jon just doesn't look anything like the other Targs.

Actually Jon is pointed as lithe, a characteristic shared with most of the current Targs.

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2. Whoring

When is Tytos ever established as a someone who frequents whores? He had a common born mistress, did we learn somewhere that she was a whore, because I don't remember that. Even if she was that's one instance, and he seems to have been really fond of her.

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Actually Jon is pointed as lithe, a characteristic shared with most of the current Targs.

True, I was speaking more about eye color, hair etc. Also isn't Rhaegar tall? I remember Jon being upset that Joff was two years younger and taller than him.

When is Tytos ever established as a someone who frequents whores? He had a common born mistress, did we learn somewhere that she was a whore, because I don't remember that. Even if she was that's one instance, and he seems to have been really fond of her.

Well I am stretching that a bit. I can admit that. It was just to articulate the fact that three generations of Lannister men are known to either frequent brothels, sleep with whores, or sleep with women interested in them for money (can we at least agree upon that with Tytos' mistress?).

Likewise, Ned, when comparing Bobby B. with Rhaegar, assumes that Rhaegar would not visit a brothel. Now, pair that with Jamie not sleeping with women below himself (kind of a dragon reference, albeit weak) and Joff's reaction to Tyrion's present. The "Dragons" don't like whores.

I know this is thin, but this is not at all the thrust of my argument for why Cersei and Jamie are more likely to be Targ bastards than Tyrion. It's just an aspect.

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It's clear that Moqorro is playing with Tyrion during their banters. The whole taking-Tyrion-along-for-the-ride-thing is a huge practical joke on anyone involved, since Moqorro does know what's going to happen. And GRRM having Moqorro indicate that Tyrion, too, is a dragon, would have been a little bit too much way too soon... After Moqorro's very precise visions of the future in the Victarion chapters any hint from him pointing towards Tyrion's true heritage would have pretty much confirmed it.

It's also very likely that Barristan Selmy does not only know about Aerys' interest in Joanna, but also about later developments of that affair. Dany only asked about the people her parents truly loved, she did not inquire whether she has any bastard brothers. And Barristan seems to be very reluctant to discuss Aerys and Joanna. He is quite open about Rhaella and Ser Bonifer Hasty, but he is touchy about Aerys. And there would not have been any reason to be so if nothing happened afterwards. Barristan could have easily been the Kingsguard guarding the bedchamber of the king when he invited Joanna into his bed.

Thus he could be the one revealing the truth to both Tyrion and Dany upon their (re-)meeting. That may also be the reason why GRRM did not let Tyrion join Dany or Barristan in ADwD. He wanted to postpone that revelation until TWoW. It's also interesting to note that Tyrion does not remember any meetings/conversations with Barristan Selmy throughout the whole novel.

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I agree there has to be more to the story of Joanna. "Twyin ruled the kingdoms and Joanna ruled Tywin". It makes him interesting that he had the redeeming quality of being a good hubby. But maybe it implies more than he was charmed by her beauty. Could she also have been ruthless and political? He would respect that. Maybe the secret back story is that Tywin being hand derrives from Joanna being Aerys infatuation. A power couple where both had political ambition?

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@QueenArya



1. Rhaegar and Jaime have the same body type? Which is that? Being a physically fit fully grown man and Knight?; Not particularly distinct/specific. I was alluding more to the fact that Rhaegar had prototypical Targaryen physical features ( Purple eyes white hair,per having 2 Targaryen parents) and Jaime/Cersie have prototypical Lannister features (Green eyes Golden hair,per having 2 Lannister parents.) God knows why you'd want to venture down the physical characteristics road trying to support what you are. Tyrion's appearance is the one that raises the questions, i.e having mismatched eyes, hair so pale blonde its almost white.



2. Tyrion is similar to Tytos on the basis of his whore frequenting? Really? You'd be better served going with Tywin, who we've actually seen with an actual whore, as opposed to Tytos who had one lowborn mistress whom Tywin deemed a whore on the grounds of up jumping her own blood and joining the likes of Lannisters by having sex with Tytos; Which in actuality was probably more of a Tysha situation than a Shae type.



3. This ones to ridiculous to not actually type the full quote out: If and when reading this, please keep in mind this individual is trying to disprove Tyrion being Aerys son on the basis that Tyrion more so mirrors Tywins personality than Aerys'.



"He is Rhaegars son. And I don't think your point is that strong. Many people point to the similarities, personality wise, between Jon and Rhaegar. Jon doesn't look anything like the other Targs."



Jon Snow in absolutely no way externally personifies Rhaegars personality than Eddards. "Jon doesn't look like other Targs," do you even know what point your trying to make?



Tyrion doesn't look like other Lannisters, Robb doesn't look like most Starks what sort of inverse correlation are you trying to draw between not looking like somebody but acting like them? Jon looks like Ned and acts like Ned, but is Rhaegars son. Robb has the Tully look and is even more so to a fault every bit the same decision making wise as Ned. Tyrion acts like Tywin, doesn't look like other Lannisters....... and by this logic his father ==???


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@QueenArya

1. Rhaegar and Jaime have the same body type? Which is that? Being a physically fit fully grown man and Knight?; Not particularly distinct/specific. I was alluding more to the fact that Rhaegar had prototypical Targaryen physical features ( Purple eyes white hair,per having 2 Targaryen parents) and Jaime/Cersie have prototypical Lannister features (Green eyes Golden hair,per having 2 Lannister parents.) God knows why you'd want to venture down the physical characteristics road trying to support what you are. Tyrion's appearance is the one that raises the questions, i.e having mismatched eyes, hair so pale blonde its almost white.

Jaime and Cersei have prototypical Lannister features in eyes and hair, but their exceptional god like beauty, as for example stands out in Jaime & Cat's Riverrun cell scene, is not.

It's a Targaryen trait.

Of course, like not everybody with golden hair is a Lannister, anybody who is extraordinary beautiful is not by default a Targ.

On the other hand, having mismatched eyes is not a Targ trait. It just a feature that raises curiosity.

Though I seem to remember one Targ(or Targ bastard) that had striped black and silver hair in D&E...

One A+J theory doesn't disprove the other - but quite the opposite.

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^ well, it probably means that I need to learn to express my thought more clearly... :dunno:


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Just wanted to toss this out here and see what you guys this:



Cyvasse is, in many moments, a game which serves as a metaphor for current or future political events in Westeros/Essos.



Tyrion even compares cyvasse to the game of thrones that Varys and Illyrio are playing - relating the pieces as Haldon, Griff, and Duck:




“Illyrio does not play cyvasse.”


No, thought the dwarf, he plays the game of thrones, and you and Griff and Duck are only pieces, to be moved where he will and sacrificed at need, just as he sacrificed Viserys.




Later, cyvasse serves to forshadow another political event, when Tyrion plays Aegon.




Young Griff arrayed his army for attack, with dragon, elephants, and heavy horse up front. A young man’s formation, as bold as it is foolish. He risks all for the quick kill. He let the prince have first move. Haldon stood behind them, watching the play.


When the prince reached for his dragon, Tyrion cleared his throat. “I would not do that if I were you. It is a mistake to bring your dragon out too soon.” He smiled innocently. “Your father knew the dangers of being overbold.”




The game continues, as they discuss various political figures, agendas, and schemes, when finally Tyrion decides to play his trick:




Smiling, he seized his dragon, flew it across the board. “I hope Your Grace will pardon me. Your king is trapped. Death in four.”


The prince stared at the playing board. “My dragon—”


“—is too far away to save you. You should have moved her to the center of the battle.”


“But you said—”


“I lied. Trust no one. And keep your dragon close.”




Later, in this very same chapter, Aegon loses Tyrion, like he lost his cyvasse dragon.



Even more interesting - Tyrion suggests the dragon could "save" Aegon. If you agree that Tyrion is a metaphorical gargoyle-protector, you could see how this applies:



- In the Dragonstone siege, the gargoyles are destroyed and the castle is lost.


- In the Winterfell siege, the gargoyles are destroyed and the castle is lost.


- In the King's Landing siege, the gargoyle (Tyrion) is not destroyed and the city is not lost.



Furthermore, as a metaphorical gargoyle - Tyrion would be a stone (metaphorical gargoyle) dragon (targaryen). The cyvasse dragon is a stone dragon, and once removed from Aegon, it could not protect him.



If Tyrion is a half-bastard Targaryen, then the imagery presented would paint a stark parallel between the game and Aegon losing Tyrion shortly after.



And as the cyvasse games foreshadow shifts in political events, his passage also foreshadows Aegon's defeat without Tyrion in the Dance 2.0


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I thought Tyrion was a Targaryen until someone pointed out that he has black hairs in his beard and hair. I checked the text and it is indeed the case. I am a firm believer in a theory that Joanna Lannister has been Aerys' mistress for a long time and that her marriage to Tywin was a sham that served a dual purpose of hiding Joanna's liaison with Aerys and allowing Tywin to fulfill his ambition and become the Hand. Hence, Tywin's smile when he married Joanna. I also believe Tywin and Joanna were fast friends, clever, ambitious and Lannister to the core. However, I believe Tywin could not sire children. Hence, his obsession with Tyrion impregnating Sansa. So who could be Tyrion's father then? Black hair excludes both Aerys and Tywin, sine Joanna was blond.



So, let us remember the incident when Princess of Dorne arrived to CR in order to hammer the details of hers and Joanna's agreement that envisaged arranged marriages between Oberyn and Cersei and Elia and Jaime only to be rudely refused by grieving Tywin. His refusal of the matches is expected since he planned to marry Jaime to Lysa Tully and Cersei to Rhaegar, but why was he so rude? Timing is everything. Tyrion has just been born. Joanna has just died. As we know, after Joanna's death, Tywin's position in court became increasingly shaky. But, even if Tywin could have foreseen that, that does not explain his rudeness to the Dornish princess.



As we know, Princess of Dorne and Joanna were bffs in KL. And we also know the princess had a brother Lewyn in Kingsguard. It is known that Lewyn had a lover, but we don't know who that lover was. Is it so hard to imagine that the Princess was the one who introduced Lewyn to Joanna and that Joanna had been meeting Lewyn regularly in the chambers of the princess when she was still a lady in waiting in KL? Is it hard to believe they might have become lovers and that black hairs Tyrion has, along with his libertine and egalitarian behavior, are due to his Dornish blood? That would also explain Tywin's rudeness towards the princess whose meddling, in his eyes, led to Joanna's death and the birth of a dwarf. Note that the only other dwarf mentioned in Westeros was someone from Dorne if I remember correctly. It is also noteworthy that Oberyn acted as Tyrion's champion. Could it be that the Dornish knew who Tyrion's real father was? Furthermore, by placing Tyrion in Aegon's company GRRM continues to link Tyrion to Dorne storyline. And, finally, why would Varys save Tyrion otherwise? Varys is firmly on Aegon's side, the side that is linked to Dorne. He has no motif to save Tyrion. Friendship? Varys? Not likely.

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