Nausicaä Posted August 27, 2011 Share Posted August 27, 2011 I still do not understand why she went with the walk, she knows she still has to stand trial for the other crimes she did not confess to, the chapter also makes reference to her meeting with Kevan at least one additional time after Cersei I, why did she not ask him about the kinsguard then and risk it all in the trial by combatThe way I understood it, they would not allow her a trial by combat if she didn't "atone" for the sins she confessed first. They would judge her the traditional way, like they are supposed to judge Margaery.Agree. Personally, I'm hoping she blasts the Sept of Baelor to kingdom come with wildfire in TWOW... :)I wholly support this statement. JFC, this rotten city. I hope it will be completely done for when everything is said and done. Burned down or taken by Others or just abandoned, I don't care. The future King/Queen of Westeros can rule just as well from any of the other seats and if the Queen in the end is Dany, she can found a new city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aryador Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 It seems very likely to me that The Hound will be the champion for the Faith.Wow. Amazing thought.Actually the only scenario I can think of that would make me come to accept the idea of a Quyrankenburn's Gregor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 It seems very likely to me that The Hound will be the champion for the Faith.I would very much love it if this were true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeanCounter Posted August 28, 2011 Share Posted August 28, 2011 I still think that the skull in Dorne is the one of the Mountain, we never see it's face here, only a great helm over it. Maybe doesn't even have a skull :SHear hear! Anyone else remember Bran's first vision before even waking up from his fall? He saw three armored figures, the first two of which were obviously Jaime and Sandor from their descriptions. But the third was "big as a mountain", armored in stone, and when he raised his visor there was no face inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cripples and broken things Posted September 4, 2011 Share Posted September 4, 2011 Actually, it reminded me a hell of a lot more of the mass rape of German women by the Red army soldiers near the end of WWII in 1945. Women were being sexually humiliated and violated, and these guys still got to tell themselves they were the heroes. (And, for the record, numerous Jewish women and German women who were anti-nazi/ helping Jews were raped as well. The moral judgement on the part of the invading soldiers was "women are women.") Just like there, here readers were treated to the spectacle of seeing Cersei graphically humiliated on a specifically female, overtly sexual level, and were happy to cheer/ applaud this misogynistic spectacle all while feeling morally justified/ superior. Because, you know, since Cersei's evil, she totally deserves to be humiliated and degraded on a sexual level. It's not as though, you know, she deserves to die but not be tortured slowly and sadistically for the readers delectation. Plus, Cersei being "guilty" of banging the Kettleblacks after her husband's death is hardly a crime worthy of the humiliation dished out to her. And for her obvious crimes, she does deserve death, but not sexually themed degradation.For the record, I did not cheer. I felt very sickened by the people of king's landing. Then again, what has Cersei done for them? Still, t hese are the small folk, you'd expect more decency from them. Martin is certainly good at making me feel sorry for people I should despise and for painting a very ugly picture of fallen human nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrish swan Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 For the record, I did not cheer. I felt very sickened by the people of king's landing. Then again, what has Cersei done for them? Still, t hese are the small folk, you'd expect more decency from them. Martin is certainly good at making me feel sorry for people I should despise and for painting a very ugly picture of fallen human nature.Heh, I'd say for the most part, readers were not supposed to feel sorry for Cersei. GRRM wrote it just ambiguously enough so that he didn't get in trouble for it with is more p.c. readers (which, judging from these boards alone, are very, very few. But that's not surprising, considering the kind of responses the text itself encourages. Shae is brutally murdered by a guy she's sleeping with to the applause/ general approval of the audience; Lysa Tully is killed by a guy she's sleeping with to the applause/ general approval of the audience; soon Cersei will be killed by her former lover to the applause/ general approval of the audience, etc. And the fact that all these women being killed by their "righteous" male partners are far from good people is beside the point. The issues are a. this situation is never presented with a role reversal (woman killing man she's been sleeping with for vengeance to the general approval of the audience); and b. these incidents are presented with so much emotional manipulation that readers are brilliantly encouraged to despise the women being murdered, and cheer for the guys as they kill them.) At any rate, GRRM's comment that "half of readers will think it is misogyny, half will think it was feminism" show that he knew how controversial the scene would be, and wrote it accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Heh, I'd say for the most part, readers were not supposed to feel sorry for Cersei. GRRM wrote it just ambiguously enough so that he didn't get in trouble for it with is more p.c. readers (which, judging from these boards alone, are very, very few. But that's not surprising, considering the kind of responses the text itself encourages. Shae is brutally murdered by a guy she's sleeping with to the applause/ general approval of the audience; Lysa Tully is killed by a guy she's sleeping with to the applause/ general approval of the audience; soon Cersei will be killed by her former lover to the applause/ general approval of the audience, etc. And the fact that all these women being killed by their "righteous" male partners are far from good people is beside the point. The issues are a. this situation is never presented with a role reversal (woman killing man she's been sleeping with for vengeance to the general approval of the audience); and b. these incidents are presented with so much emotional manipulation that readers are brilliantly encouraged to despise the women being murdered, and cheer for the guys as they kill them.) At any rate, GRRM's comment that "half of readers will think it is misogyny, half will think it was feminism" show that he knew how controversial the scene would be, and wrote it accordingly. Well, I'm not PC, but I certainly felt more sympathetic towards Cersei at the end of this chapter than I did at the beginning. It doesn't outweigh her crimes, but the chapter does make pretty unpleasant reading. I'd view the murder of Shae as a tragedy. The killing of Lysa comes pretty close to self-defence, in my view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 The killing of Lysa comes pretty close to self-defence, in my view.I'd actually disagree on this score, because she was murdered after Sansa was safe (Lysa had let her go) in cold blood so that LF could continue to force his unwanted attentions on Sansa without having to send her away. That was a pretty awful scene, and told us a lot about both Lysa and LF as people, and the danger that Sansa continues to be in. That being said, maybe Myrish Swan should take this to the feminist critique thread in General, if she wants to talk about the sexism she perceives in overall story. Given the multitude of complaints she has made about the treatment of women in the story, I am quite surprised I haven't seen her posting in there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I'd actually disagree on this score, because she was murdered after Sansa was safe (Lysa had let her go) in cold blood so that LF could continue to force his unwanted attentions on Sansa without having to send her away. That was a pretty awful scene, and told us a lot about both Lysa and LF as people, and the danger that Sansa continues to be in. Clearly, that's one of Littlefinger's motivations. In fact, I view his attitude towards Sansa as being a creepy mix of guilt about the harm he's done to her family, sexual desire, and wanting to use her to advance his schemes. But, it seems obvious to me that Sansa was in permanent danger from Lysa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexia Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 She couldn't stay in the Eyrie anymore, Lysa was not going to allow it and her life would certainly be at risk if she did. LF didn't want to relinquish his prize. I want to inquire more about what makes you think LF feels any guilt at all for what he's done to Sansa's family, but maybe we should save it for a Sansa thread. That way, people who want to talk about Cersei II won't stone us. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Fair enough. I'll reread some Sansa chapters, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spanky Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 It'd be cool if Cersei gets her foot infected by the cut and stepping in all the shit, and then has to have her entire leg amputated later or something. Alternatively, I still think it'd also be cool if Cersei ends up actually surviving the novels, and ending up in a relatively good situation, just to fuck with all the readers, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnCeide Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Anyone think Qyburn may have lopped off Tywins head and stiched it on to Gregor's body, maybe why he specifically lifted her off the ground? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost the direwolf Posted September 17, 2011 Share Posted September 17, 2011 I'm pretty sure the skull in Dorne belongs to the dwarf head that was presented to Cersei (and possibly Penny's brother). Dwarfs are usually described as having oversized heads. It seems very likely to me that The Hound will be the champion for the Faith.Did no think of that but it will be great for him to get the chance to kill his brother finally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose Boltons Bastard Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 The sexism goes along with the time period the story takes place. I think to sugarcoat it would've cheapened the story. That being said, this was all made possible by Cersei empowering the faith to advance her wacko agenda. The game of thrones ain't checkers, it's chess. You gotta think more than one move in advance. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory's Shade Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Why does George make you feel sorry for people! I was all set to hate Cersei and want bad things to happen to her but this was terrible. She has been stripped of everything - even feeling beautiful. I know that she was guilty of lots of things but she's off my shit list now. Perhaps this will change her enough that Tyrion doesn't feel that he has to kill her when/if he returns to Westeros. Exactly. I felt proud for her and sad for her after reading her ordeal. I never thought I would feel anything but contempt for her, regardless of how completely witty and hilarious she can be in her POVs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jory's Shade Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 I thought it would bDid no think of that but it will be great for him to get the chance to kill his brother finally That didn't even occur to me. I bet you are right. If so, poor Cercei... For her sake, she better hope it's Lancel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ormond Posted October 2, 2011 Share Posted October 2, 2011 I'll bang my drum again. Jane Shore was not punished like that. She was paraded through the streets in her kirtle, which is a long underdress. From a modern perspective it would be like parading a woman through the streets in her slip. Yes, it's a bit disingenous of GRRM to say this chapter is like Jane Shore's real life story when she wasn't paraded naked through the streets at all during her public penance. Frankly I wonder if having Cersei hairless and naked isn't something GRRM did in order to make the scene fit in with HBO's sexploitation purposes if and when this book makes it to the TV screen. I'm afraid I think the sex and violence in ADWD has gotten a bit gratuitous compared to the previous books, and I wonder if GRRM hasn't been thinking a little too much about titillating future HBO viewers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arland Posted October 3, 2011 Share Posted October 3, 2011 When I was reading this chapter I thought that king Aris had it right - burn this city!!!Cersei deserves a punishment. Her crimes are many and more.But this kind of punishment was very wrong. It wasn't a punishment for her crimes , but a punishment for her being a woman.First, it was a punishment for deeds which were not crimes at all (how many a women Robert slept with? ). Second it was a punishment directed at her womanhood, punishment meant to remind her that "she is only a woman", punishment reserved only for women - chauvinism in it worst.She deserves a beheading, sure. Forget the scheming and poisoning, let's say it's all politics. Remember all the innocents she gave to Quibreen (sp?)to torture at will - that deserves a horrible punishment. But Westeros doesn't deserve this kind of punishment. All the innocent women of westeros didn't deserve this chauvinistic show. That is why I hope the KL will burn and Sept of Baelon with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanyStark Posted October 4, 2011 Share Posted October 4, 2011 This is one of the most commented on chapters so far...and with good reason! I, at the start of the chapter was like yeah bitch walk naked shaved be ashamed- it's what you deserved. Then I started feeling worse and worse for her as the walk went on (as a woman.) Then the moment she becomes a real person not just an uptight cruel entitled wench and starts crying then falling and eventually her clumsy stumbling run as she covers herself; I really thought that was an almost triumphant moment, at least for Cersei. Sorry for the bad grammar I'm running late to a meeting but had to comment before i headed out :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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