SummerGhostofNymeria Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Martin really puts the Starks and Tullys through the ringer, to put it mildly. Seeing as I'm still quite the Stark supporter it kills me. The Tullys not so much, unless you're talking Brynden (is that how his name is spelled) the uncle... the one who came back from The Eyrie with Cat, Blackfish. I really like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaraktheHirsute Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Well, Catelyn too, even before the Red Wedding. Lysa is not a likable character but it seems pretty clear she's lost her mind and her father did something that hurt her. Some might say her fate is a relief, given what a raving madwoman she became, but it's still kind of sad. And Hoster, of course, lingered long and painfully with (presumably) cancer. And, yes, Brynden is the name, and he's had to give up Riverrun (not sure if he has yet or not). Hope to learn more of him as well. Anyway... Jojen's green dream said that the wolves would return to Winterfell... ...so hope springs eternal, as they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SummerGhostofNymeria Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Well, Catelyn too, even before the Red Wedding. Lysa is not a likable character but it seems pretty clear she's lost her mind and her father did something that hurt her. Some might say her fate is a relief, given what a raving madwoman she became, but it's still kind of sad. And Hoster, of course, lingered long and painfully with (presumably) cancer. And, yes, Brynden is the name, and he's had to give up Riverrun (not sure if he has yet or not). Hope to learn more of him as well. Anyway... Jojen's green dream said that the wolves would return to Winterfell... ...so hope springs eternal, as they say. I can only hope on that last point, and I agree about your first point with Lysa as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda4783 Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Theres not a person on this board, whether they read that scene 11 years ago or 2 months ago like me. That don't feel exactly you did/do right now. Depending on how long ago you read ACOK, Theon had a dream basically depicting Robbs fate, what happens at the Red Wedding. So it was one of those things George Martin told us long before it happened, it was just up to us to interpret it properly or to believe it at all. i also notice this was your first post Welcome, be careful roaming the site you will come across spoilers for the next 2 books everywhere you turn. Thank you for pointing out that there was a prophetic dream of Robb's fall, too. I had been trying to make sure to highlight all these sorts of dreams using my Kindle app, but somehow, of course, happened to miss this one, particular dream. Following your note, I went back and skimmed through the ACoK Theon chapters and, sure enough, it was right there. Theon's dream has now been properly highlighted for future reference. Thanks again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaraktheHirsute Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Can someone tell me what the chapter is where Theon had the dream? I read it recently but I think I only vaguely remember something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda4783 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Can someone tell me what the chapter is where Theon had the dream? I read it recently but I think I only vaguely remember something. If I have the right dream sequence, it's in ACoK - Theon Chapter 5. I think ...?! :cool4: It's toward the end of the chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaraktheHirsute Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Thanks, Amanda! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crannog Man Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 "Nothing exhibits this tendency more than Danny's story arc. She is 'sold' off to Khal Drogo by her own brother, betrayed by Maz Durr for saving her life and trusting her, left by Drogo's men along with the weak and the dying, and deceived by Pyat Pree. All of this happened to her until she visited Astapor and was repulsed by how the Unsullied were trained. She has a talk with Jorah about her brother Rhaegar's honorable and noble ways, and to this Jorah replies, "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died." It is only after this that we see how she comes into her own as a Queen when she betrays the slave traders and claims the unsullied for herself. And later, at Yukon(sic?), we see how she deceives and manipulates and wins the battle. She does not taste success until she puts aside all that the Starks could not." - Lezboyd So true! This is the theme that has been most predominant with me. Try to be honorable, Try to do right aand see yourself fade into oblivion. This theme has really hit home with me and my day to day life. Is it better to be honorable and fade into obscurity or be an ass-licking, back stabber and thrive? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda4783 Posted September 13, 2011 Share Posted September 13, 2011 Of course if one reads closely Dany's visions in the House of the Undying in A Clash of Kings you will have been expecting this for a while. Probably thinking that it would be at Robbs wedding, the only curveball being that it ends up being Ed's wedding. Naturally I didn't read Dany's visions too closely and it was 3 years between reading aCoK and aSoS so it came as a bolt out of the blue for me, albeit with that sense of dread once Robb had married that Westerling girl. Nothing good comes from marrying westerners. And now I see there was an additional dream sequence in a ACoK Dany chapter about Robb's fall. Where have I been? Obviously not paying enough attention - must hone my foreshadow-spotting radar ... der. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still_Servant Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Shame on Robb. He should have seen this coming. As soon as Frey made him attend the wedding without Grey Wind, he should have known something was up. When Frey told him he couldn't bring his direwolf, Robb should have looked him in the eyes and told him to F off. I thought this chapter was great, but heartbreaking. Martin has a way of just side swiping the reader. I had a feeling something bad was going to happen, but not to this extent. NEW RULE: If you are a Stark and still have a direwolf, that direwolf must be with you at all times. No more sending your wolf off on his own (I'm looking at you Jon Snow...you know nothing by the way), no more letting them go hunting on their own. If they are to hunt, they must do it by your side. The Frey's were not to be trusted from the start. They should have cut their losses and moved on. Robb was too careless here and it cost him. I also blame Catelyn she should have seen this coming too. Ned would have told them to never trust the Frey house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaraktheHirsute Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Robb needed the Freys both because they held the crossing of the river and for their numbers. Especially after the falling out with the Karstarks. As Robb and Grey Wind, when he thought that Bran's and Rickon's wolves had failed to protect them, he became less convinced about the wolves as protectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still_Servant Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I agree that Robb needed the river and the numbers. That's why he should have gone right in there and put them all to the sword. Probably should have been done years ago when they showed up late to the Trident. Robb should have thought along the lines of the way Dany is thinking now. Sometimes playing by the book gets you killed. That's why the good guys always lose, they're too worried about being good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EzXen Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Just read this chapter and arya chapter beyond fucking pissed acidently read what someone posted about what they did to greywind and rob, Had to put it down blood is boiled Robb was my favorite character and then bam when i think things are finaly going his way this chapter knocks me down and kicks me in my sides. gonna pick the book back up in a bit but right now im to heated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaraktheHirsute Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I agree that Robb needed the river and the numbers. That's why he should have gone right in there and put them all to the sword. Please parse this statement for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SummerGhostofNymeria Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 NEW RULE: If you are a Stark and still have a direwolf, that direwolf must be with you at all times. No more sending your wolf off on his own (I'm looking at you Jon Snow...you know nothing by the way), no more letting them go hunting on their own. If they are to hunt, they must do it by your side. This comment made me laugh when I read the "I'm looking at you Jon Snow" part. However, I came to this conclusion long ago, the Starks need their direwolves. A Stark without their wolves makes them a lot more vulnerable, and also vice-versa. The direwolves need the Starks just as much as the other way around. Either way, you're right, they should not go without their direwolves if they can. Which means poor Sansa, and so far poor Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SummerGhostofNymeria Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Just read this chapter and arya chapter beyond fucking pissed acidently read what someone posted about what they did to greywind and rob, Had to put it down blood is boiled Robb was my favorite character and then bam when i think things are finaly going his way this chapter knocks me down and kicks me in my sides. gonna pick the book back up in a bit but right now im to heated It will get better, keep with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaraktheHirsute Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Sending Ghost away could actually be a good thing but Jon has yet to really take advantage of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urien the Ragged Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 why is Robb anyone's favorite character? he's never had a POV and he's virtually ignored in ACOK. in fact, he's barely around until the RW chapter. Sounds like people like the idea of the King in the North rather than Robb Stark himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HaraktheHirsute Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 I think maybe because Robb opposed the Lannisters and stood the best chance of defeating them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urien the Ragged Posted September 14, 2011 Share Posted September 14, 2011 Robb never had a chance, his army was in shambles long before the red wedding. He should have made it a point to marry Roslin during his initial crossing, to cement the Frey's allegiance. Walder's second son is married to Tywin's sister, it's not like the Frey's were a slam-dunk. While extremely brutal and seemingly unfair, Robb got exactly what his idiotic actions deserved. If Catelyn were any better, she would have called for the annulment of the marriage immediately, and then made sure he went nowhere near the Twins. She knew Lord Walder better than anyone else in the Stark camp, yet she allowed the RW to happen. He followed in his father's footsteps and made pretty much the exact same mistakes. It would seem that the Starks weren't meant to sit any throne. Robb never had the heart to rule, anyway. "Some good men make bad kings and some bad men make good kings." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.