[ADwD Spoilers] Sorcery in Last Jon Chapter?

[Visenya Vhagar]

Uh did you read closely enough? He thinks they really have (had) Arya. He sent Mance south to rescue her and now he thinks it failed. Its completely in character for him giving his speacial closeness to her.

Especially given that he thinks that both of the other siblings he was close to--Robb and Bran--are dead as well.

[Puck6275]

Uh did you read closely enough? He thinks they really have (had) Arya. He sent Mance south to rescue her and now he thinks it failed. Its completely in character for him giving his speacial closeness to her.

Multiple times in the letter Ramsey wrote to Jon does he say he "Wants his bride back" whom jon knows to be Arya (though he's wrong). Thus, it can be safely assumed, Jon did not go plan on going to winterfell to save Arya, as he knew Arya not to be in winterfell.

[eagleheart]

Multiple times in the letter Ramsey wrote to Jon does he say he "Wants his bride back" whom jon knows to be Arya (though he's wrong). Thus, it can be safely assumed, Jon did not go plan on going to winterfell to save Arya, as he knew Arya not to be in winterfell.

... but he didn't have her so he thought she was in the vicinity of Winterfell, probably alone, possibly hurt by the sick bastard or at least within Ramsey's grasp. In other words, she was in mortal danger.

[Strider]

I think there may have been some sorcery at work in Jon's stabbing. It seems to me that Marsh and Wick may not have attacked Jon entirely of their own volition. Here's the ending of the last Jon chapter, with the things I found strange in bold.

I don't know what to make of it, or if to make anything of it at all, but those four things -- Wick's not-me, Jon's stiff and clumsy fingers, Bowen's tears, and the smoking wound -- all seem strange to me. Is the Old Pomegranate the type to cry as he stabs his Lord Commander? Were Jon's fingers just cold? (And then did they get warm enough for him to pull out the dagger that was in his belly?) Why was Wick not-meing when he had slashed at Jon in the yard in broad daylight for all to see? And what does it mean that the wound was smoking?

I suspect Borroq and some abominable human skin-changing, but I don't see how the smoking wound fits into that.

What think ye?

I too have been wondering about Jon's death and whether the assailants acted on their own volition. As you have noted, there are several elements that suggest that the assailants were under somebody's control. Also, the assassination is so very public. If the assailants were acting in total freedom, would they not have chosen a more private and discreet occasion to murder Jon?

I expect we will find that Jon has warged into Ghost. I do not expect him to be resurrected, however. It won't happen precisely because Jon is a major character. It's one thing to resurrect Beric or even Catelyn. Lady Stoneheart is Catelyn Stark in name only. She may share some of Catelyn's memories and body, but she is not Catelyn. I do not think that Martin intends such a zombie existence for Jon.

[Greg B]

Wick's actions - He's a steward, not a ranger, and he's just been disarmed. He's trying to stay alive until his co-conspirators finish Jon, and backpedaling with his hands raised seems perfectly in character.

Smoking wound - "In the cold night air the wound was smoking." A literary description of warm blood meeting cold air.

Numb fingers - Acute stress response will cause muscles (particularly in the extremities) to tighten involuntarily and blood vessels to constrict, causing numbness. Jon doesn't know all the details of his body's response to the attack, so he can't narrate them to us. He's just confused because his hands won't do what he wants them to. This is just good authorial research and description -- not magic or poison.

Bowen's tears - Another steward is assassinating his commander, something he feels he has to do for "the good of the Watch." A strong emotional reaction seems perfectly in character.

[dcon]

Uh did you read closely enough? He thinks they really have (had) Arya. He sent Mance south to rescue her and now he thinks it failed. Its completely in character for him giving his speacial closeness to her.

I think it makes sense but at the same time I did think it was weird. To me the reaction was somewhat out of character (though I understand the bond he shares with Arya) and that whole scene was completely surreal.

[ViennaGirl]

Crazy crackpot theory...

It was all just a dream. Smoking wounds, clumsiness... all seem nightmare like.

(I know that isn't the case and it would feel cheap. but I'll laugh if the next Jon chapter starts with "He awoke drenched in sweat and shivering.")

Sigh. I'll totally take this, even if it felt cheap.

[Envie]

Crazy crackpot theory...

It was all just a dream. Smoking wounds, clumsiness... all seem nightmare like.

(I know that isn't the case and it would feel cheap. but I'll laugh if the next Jon chapter starts with "He awoke drenched in sweat and shivering.")

This is honestly what I thought too when I read it... the way it was written in halting, almost disjointed bits, so similar to how GRRM writes out a character's dream-state. I thought "This seems like a dream he's having... or some sort of sorcery!"

And also, if the wound were making like a hot-breath in cold, why would he use the word smoking instead of steaming? Smoking, to me, implies heat, not cold... something on fire... OH MELISANDRE!!! :stunned:

[Kadence]

I agree that something magical was up there and am very surprised that this isn't the accepted theory. When I first read that scene I simply assumed this was the case.

1) The assailants are absolutely suicidal and insane, attacking Jon with so many of his wildling friends outnumbering them badly. On top of this many, probably most Night's Watchmen would defend their Lord Commander against such an assault as well. And you could see someone like Bowen sacrificing himself for the Watch - but Wick? This is perhaps the dumbest attack in the entire series. If they wanted Jon dead surely they could find a less moronic time to do it.

2) The "Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard." Seems like a Clue Stick.

3) The reaction of Wick and Bowen Marsh, with Wick acting all innocent and Bowen crying.

4) The whole thing in the prologue and Bran chapters with human warging. A common Martin tactic is set something up way beforehand. If human warging wasn't eventually going to play a role in the series, I don't think he would have set it up like this.

5) The presence of Borroq...without his boar. Major red flags here. Also Melisandre warned Jon to keep Ghost close, which may not just be a "the direwolf will protect you" thing. It may be a "Ghost warg warning system" thing.

Wick's actions - He's a steward, not a ranger, and he's just been disarmed. He's trying to stay alive until his co-conspirators finish Jon, and backpedaling with his hands raised seems perfectly in character.

If he were raising his hands defensively, the description would be "and he raised his hands to protect his face" or something. Not "his hands raised as if to say, Not me, it was not me." Martin is very careful of his word choice especially in important and symbolic scenes.

Numb fingers - Acute stress response will cause muscles (particularly in the extremities) to tighten involuntarily and blood vessels to constrict, causing numbness. Jon doesn't know all the details of his body's response to the attack, so he can't narrate them to us. He's just confused because his hands won't do what he wants them to. This is just good authorial research and description -- not magic or poison.

I totally disagree. Even if the attackers weren't controlled, there was something up with Jon's hands, some sorcery or such. The description makes it seem very sinister. And Jon is a seasoned fighter, if stress was enough to make him not able to pry his sword from his scabbard he'd be dead already.

[Swordswench]

I think Marsh already stabbed him once before he stabbed him in the belly. It would otherwise be a bit weird that he's just kind of standing there and has already reacted when Jon turns toward him. It is noted when the dagger stays in Jon's belly after March stabs him again. Wick's reaction (backing away) also suggests he sees Marsh behind Jon stabbing him. Backing away from a swordsman you just slashed a knife at is normally a good way to get a sword to chest. If Marsh stabbed Jon in his sword shoulder/arm, then that could easily account for Jon's inability to draw his sword. It reads a bit weird because Martin appears to have written the sequence in a somewhat surrealistic manner because we're in the head of someone getting stabbed repeatedly.

I agree with you. At first I argued on these boards that Jon was only known to have been stabbed twice from the info we're given, but the more I think on it, and re-read the passage, it does seem like he's getting stabbed multiple times -- more than are explicitly mentioned by GRRM. Jon's mind is getting hazy and confused by the attack.

As for Melisandre, I wouldn't put it beyond her capacity to heal wounds as they're made, even from a fair distance. She seems like a pretty powerful sorceress. Assuming she's in the King's tower, she'd have a pretty good view of it all, wouldn't she?

I don't see anything weird with Marsh's tears, personally. It's his Brutus moment. Even if he sincerely feels that murdering the Lord Commander (in the midst of a pumped up crowd of brothers, wildings and knights) is the right thing to do, it probably wasn't easy for him emotionally. He's got to be in deep conflict over his vows and sense of loyalty.

[j52y]

What really bothered me though was how that whole thing at the end was completely unexplained, his character, out of the blue, does a complete 180 as he calls the wildlings south to face Bolton. Very poor way to finish Jon's POV, which had been quite good.

I disagree. It's what the book has been building up to in Jon story the whole time. He gave Stannis castles and councel when he shouldn't have, and he would exchange letter with the man. Jon could not forsake Winterfell in his heart, and he was willing to take it back (somewhat illegally) if he had to.

[Black Crow]

Tried posting this one yesterday but something went wrong.

If we assume that we're in real time on this one as distinct from a dream sequence or something else weird its worth recalling what happened to a guy called Sir [or Ser if you prefer] Adrian Scrope who got himself stabbed and slashed no fewer than 16 times during the battle of Edgehill on 23 October 1642. The exact circumstances are unclear although it sounds like what happened to Jon in that having been slowed down by a couple of initial wounds a couple of guys pitched in to finish him off with multiple strikes.

Anyway no less than William Harvey, (of circulation of the blood fame) treated him afterwards:

"Sir Adrian Scrope was dangerously wounded, and left amongst the dead men... The local people stripped him, which helped to save his life. It was cold, clear weather, and a frost that night, which staunched his bleeding, and about midnight, or some hours after his hurt, he awaked, and was forced to draw a dead body upon him for warmth."

Now we don't know what else is going on at the time the assasination attempt is made on Jon, but if GRRM knows of the story we may not need any convoluted sorcery to explain his "you think he's dead do you?"

[Red Dirt]

Maybe it was all just a dream and he was in Winterfell with Robb and Ned all the time and they never died! :D

Yea the Newheart ending it is. :)

[coppertongue]

I thought Borroq mind controlled them at first. He was to convenient to just suddenly appear, and Marsh, Wick, and Jon all seem without control. Borroq has strong skinchanging abilities... he control a massive boar, much larger than any normal one. Tormund sets him at the his rear guard, with his best men. In all like he's been at the rear guard the entire time, that's why we've never met him. also, he's killed crows, Tormund says as much. We can also draw conclusions of his skinchanging prowess from the fighting pits in Mereen earlier in the book. The boar there smarted up and killed the chick with no spear. Boars must be a more difficult animal to control, 'specially a giant boar.

All that said, I agree with what other have said... it's still not enough to control Jon, plus four Night's watch brothers all at once or within seconds of each other. A greenseer, however, would have that ability. The Three-Eyed Crow with a thousand eyes and one could manage such an attack.

[Akhôrahil]

I think there may have been some sorcery at work in Jon's stabbing. It seems to me that Marsh and Wick may not have attacked Jon entirely of their own volition. Here's the ending of the last Jon chapter, with the things I found strange in bold.

I don't know what to make of it, or if to make anything of it at all, but those four things -- Wick's not-me, Jon's stiff and clumsy fingers, Bowen's tears, and the smoking wound -- all seem strange to me. Is the Old Pomegranate the type to cry as he stabs his Lord Commander? Were Jon's fingers just cold? (And then did they get warm enough for him to pull out the dagger that was in his belly?) Why was Wick not-meing when he had slashed at Jon in the yard in broad daylight for all to see? And what does it mean that the wound was smoking?

I suspect Borroq and some abominable human skin-changing, but I don't see how the smoking wound fits into that.

What think ye?

Or Melisandre, finally convinced by her visions that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, decides to nudge fate along by setting up a situation that would fulfill the terms of the prophesy. The Red Priests seem to be obsessed with helping that prophesy - Melisandre with Stannis, Moqorro with Victarion (salt and smoke and a dragonhorn...), possibly even Thoros with Beric. And that's why his wounds smoke - fire magic courses within him. And his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

(No, I don't really believe that either, but hey... Melisandre would see it as helping Jon, if she heals/resurrects him right away afterwards.)

[The Human Abstract]

Or Melisandre, finally convinced by her visions that Jon is Azor Ahai reborn, decides to nudge fate along by setting up a situation that would fulfill the terms of the prophesy. The Red Priests seem to be obsessed with helping that prophesy - Melisandre with Stannis, Moqorro with Victarion (salt and smoke and a dragonhorn...), possibly even Thoros with Beric. And that's why his wounds smoke - fire magic courses within him. And his is the Song of Ice and Fire.

(No, I don't really believe that either, but hey... Melisandre would see it as helping Jon, if she heals/resurrects him right away afterwards.)

lol. Believe it or not, I had the same thought. It's weird, but the whole chapter feels really weird, so...

[Akhôrahil]

By the way, about Jon being AA reborn because the signs are there, like the bleeding star and everything...

In order for that to actually work out, he has to be healed/rezzed right away -- the prophesy concerns AA's rebirth, not any death. I think it's either a big red herring, or some kind of messed-up set-up. Jon is tPwwP, not AA.

[The Human Abstract]

Daggers. Smoke (steam). Salt (tears).

Prophecy, bitchez.

Yeah. It hasn't been fulfilled yet, though. Not reborn yet.

The question we're wondering... is Melisandre helping to fill it? Did she figure out what her visions mean? It's weird, but I dunno.

[Bowl of Brown]

Crazy crackpot theory...

It was all just a dream. Smoking wounds, clumsiness... all seem nightmare like.

(I know that isn't the case and it would feel cheap. but I'll laugh if the next Jon chapter starts with "He awoke drenched in sweat and shivering.")

Ramsay mentions Reek in his letter. Jon couldn't have known about Reek, and I have my doubts that Mel would have known about him either. Reek is the only reason that I think the letter is legitimate.

[Howdyphillip]

Just to add that a smoking wound would be consistent with warm blood hitting the below freezing temperatures. This would be a natural occurrence rather then a magical one.