[ADWD SPOILERS] Azor Ahai - The prophecy

[Zar Lannister]

I like the Theory about the Three Incarnations of Azor Azai... but I don't think Tyrion will be riding Rhaegal or Viserion any time soon... I think Tyrion has a role to Play in the Prophecies given to Dany, but they will be related to one of the infamous treasons.

Aegon of R+E was already born and he's been named as the "mummer's dragon". He's an owned piece (Varys'), he's not a true dragon. I believe the dragons will not accept him. I think the only reason Aegon was brought back into the story is to make people uncertain - which Aegon was Rhaegar speaking about? Which woman was he with - Lyanna or Elia - in Dany's vision? That, too, we will see within 6 years (hopefully :D ).

Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them.

Kraken and Dark Flame (Victarion and Moqorro?), Lion and Griffin (Tyrion and Connington?), The Sun's son and the Mummer's Dragon (Quentyn and Aegon?)

I don't think Aegon is a false Targaryen... Mummer's Dragon could be interpreted as being backed by Varys (After all, it's not the Mummer Dragon, but the Mummer's Dragon). The way I see it, he's still a true Dragon, but not to be trusted by Dany.

[Tammy]

@Tammy

Lyanna suposedly died of a fever. It could have been the flux, like the pale mare, where her insides bled out.

That's right she does and since Ned reflects on it there's no reason to believe it's not true. The spatters Theon saw could then still be childbirth, but perhaps she died from a fever or complications from childbirth or something like that some time after or the pale mare.

[Ghost of Jon Snow]

I think you have an interesting idea that Azor Ahai is actually three people. But, I don't think Jon Snow is one of them. The "evidence" we have for this - Jon getting stabbed underneath a certain banner; his wounds steaming ("smoking") in the cold air - is pretty slim. A prophecy should be fulfilled in a dramatic way. Just my opinion, obviously, but if prophecies could be fulfilled so cheaply, then all Dany has to do in order to resurrect Khal Drogo is to pile up a "mountain" of ash on a windy day, and watch it blow away in the wind.

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

[tze]

I think you have an interesting idea that Azor Ahai is actually three people. But, I don't think Jon Snow is one of them. The "evidence" we have for this - Jon getting stabbed underneath a certain banner; his wounds steaming ("smoking") in the cold air - is pretty slim.

If R+L=J, then Jon was born at the Tower of Joy. Ned found Lyanna dying in a bed of blood---if that was childbirth, then she was probably giving birth when Ned and his posse fought the 3 Kingsguard. So basically, Jon was born of a woman of the House of Stark while Ser Arthur Dayne bled and died.

In the Dunk and Egg stories, GRRM uses the word "smoke" as a color on multiple occasions. The colors of House Stark---the colors they have had for 8,000 years, quite possibly since the time of the original Azor Ahai---are grey and white. Smoke is grey, salt is white. So Jon was born from Lyanna---who could be represented by her House's ancient colors, the colors of smoke and salt.

And GRRM keeps hitting us over the head with the fact that Ser Arthur Dayne died at the Tower of Joy. He was a son of Starfall, and he bore a sword forged of a chunk of fallen star.

My point being, I don't think we even need to look to the assassination attempt to see Jon fulfilling the prophecy. (Or maybe he'll fulfill the prophecy three times?) He was born amidst smoke and salt (Lyanna Stark gave birth to him). A star bled at the time of his birth (Ser Arthur Dayne).

These prophecies are highly figurative/metaphorical. I mean, Dany doesn't really expect to encounter an actual cloth dragon---we understand that it represents a person. If the smoke/salt and the bleeding star represent people, then I think Jon's birth (or what we believe happened at Jon's birth) already fulfills it.

[Ghost of Jon Snow]

Tze,

Thanks, that was interesting.

[LordManderBlee]

If R+L=J, then Jon was born at the Tower of Joy. Ned found Lyanna dying in a bed of blood---if that was childbirth, then she was probably giving birth when Ned and his posse fought the 3 Kingsguard. So basically, Jon was born of a woman of the House of Stark while Ser Arthur Dayne bled and died.

In the Dunk and Egg stories, GRRM uses the word "smoke" as a color on multiple occasions. The colors of House Stark---the colors they have had for 8,000 years, quite possibly since the time of the original Azor Ahai---are grey and white. Smoke is grey, salt is white. So Jon was born from Lyanna---who could be represented by her House's ancient colors, the colors of smoke and salt.

And GRRM keeps hitting us over the head with the fact that Ser Arthur Dayne died at the Tower of Joy. He was a son of Starfall, and he bore a sword forged of a chunk of fallen star.

My point being, I don't think we even need to look to the assassination attempt to see Jon fulfilling the prophecy. (Or maybe he'll fulfill the prophecy three times?) He was born amidst smoke and salt (Lyanna Stark gave birth to him). A star bled at the time of his birth (Ser Arthur Dayne).

These prophecies are highly figurative/metaphorical. I mean, Dany doesn't really expect to encounter an actual cloth dragon---we understand that it represents a person. If the smoke/salt and the bleeding star represent people, then I think Jon's birth (or what we believe happened at Jon's birth) already fulfills it.

That's genius. I've never heard this one before, very astute

[dayne curious]

Agreed -- very interesting idea Tze !!

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

wow never interpreted it that way.

[Jon Snow's Nuncle]

I like Tze's theory. But Dayne's not a red star, is he? And the darkness gathering part is also missing. Just thought I'd mention that so anyone familiar with the ToJ incident can shed more light on it.

[ARYa_Nym]

Idk about darkness gathering but if Arthur Dayne bled while being killed then I guess that could count as a red star.

[Ghost Rider]

I think you have an interesting idea that Azor Ahai is actually three people. But, I don't think Jon Snow is one of them. The "evidence" we have for this - Jon getting stabbed underneath a certain banner; his wounds steaming ("smoking") in the cold air - is pretty slim. A prophecy should be fulfilled in a dramatic way.

I don't think his "rebirth" has happened yet. The evidence that keeps being mentioned is piled up during his "dying"! I think we will see the rest of the prophecy fulfilled in an epic way during his awakening. Really, I don't understand how anyone cannot see Jon Snow as AA. At the moment all foreshadowing points to him. Especially his own dream about the flaming sword - that's the picture of AA!

So he will aquire the sword from somewhere.

@Tze: fascinating theory about the Tower of Joy. I think there must have been something other going on there than just Jon's birth (important as that may be). But the timing for the rebirth of AA would be all wrong because it must be "after a long summer" (same btw for the birth of Dany at Dragonstone), so the earliest possible moment would be the beginning of CoK and even that is arguable.

[tze]

I like Tze's theory. But Dayne's not a red star, is he? And the darkness gathering part is also missing. Just thought I'd mention that so anyone familiar with the ToJ incident can shed more light on it.

Dayne bleeding = red star.

As for darkness gathering, maybe Jon was born at dusk? I don't think we've ever been told what time of day Jon was born/the Kingsguard were defeated.

@Tze:But the timing for the rebirth of AA would be all wrong because it must be "after a long summer" (same btw for the birth of Dany at Dragonstone), so the earliest possible moment would be the beginning of CoK and even that is arguable.

The "end of the long summer" doesn't have to literally mean the physical end of the season. I think it can refer to the end of the reign of House Targaryen. The Targs are heavily associated with heat/summer (remember their palace at Summerhall?), just as the Starks are associated with cold/winter. House Targaryen ruled for 300 years---the "long summer". If R+L=J, then Jon was born after the Sack of King's Landing (i.e., after Aerys had been deposed/killed) and after Rhaegar had died at the Trident. Therefore, he was born after the end of "the long summer" of the reign of House Targaryen.

[Snapu]

Darkness gathering doesn't mean twillight or night, it's related to the darkness coming from the lands of always winter.

I think you theory is brilliant :) Still, I think Dany "covers" the AA prophecy better than Jon for the sole reason of awakening the dragons, though Jon could easily be the one who will wield the sword of dawn. The dragon has three heads, maybe in this age Azor Ahai did get reborn - in three people as someone suggested, but not complete in each of them. Each one carries a piece of his essence.

Dany is immune to fire and brings the dragons into the world. Jon will wield the sword of dawn/fire and be the first among the three to battle the darkness, while Tyrion(or whoever is the third piece) carries his wisdom and cunning.

Perhaps, to bring it to game terms, Dany is a priest, Jon is a warrior, Tyrion(or whoever is the third one) is a mage and all three of them carry different segments of Azor Ahai's soul. Something like the holy trinity.

Maybe Stannis too carries a small part of AA and that is the reason Mel saw him in her fires before she got close to Jon and the essence inside him overwhelmed that held within Stannis. Or perhaps the only reason she saw him was because the fires knew he would be the one to take her to the true battlefield?

Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them.

Kraken and Dark Flame (Victarion and Moqorro?), Lion and Griffin (Tyrion and Connington?), The Sun's son and the Mummer's Dragon (Quentyn and Aegon?)

I don't think Aegon is a false Targaryen... Mummer's Dragon could be interpreted as being backed by Varys (After all, it's not the Mummer Dragon, but the Mummer's Dragon). The way I see it, he's still a true Dragon, but not to be trusted by Dany.

I didn't say he's a false dragon. I said he's an owned piece; he's an owned dragon, ergo the mummer's dragon. As Littlefinger made it clear, you're either a player or a piece in the game of thrones. So far the only two real players have been Varys and him, everyone else has somehow been playing according to their wishes and died according to their wishes.

Yes, Varys wants Aegon on the throne, but Littlefinger might not be so accepting, considering he was waiting for the Lannisters to fall out of power before he goes back into the game once more (said so in AFFC). I still hold the opinion that the game of thrones does not really matter and only the song of ice and fire is of importance. Aegon is not part of the song and is therefore not only an owned piece, but he's an owned piece on the wrong game board. He's a secondary character.

[tze]

Still, I think Dany "covers" the AA prophecy better than Jon for the sole reason of awakening the dragons

There are actually two reasons why I don't think Dany will end up as Azor Ahai. First, because the Red Priests of Volantis are apparently trumpeting her as AA--and if GRRM has taught us anything, it's that characters who believe they've successfully interpreted a prophecy are never correct.

And second, did Dany really "wake" dragons? She birthed them, but she didn't wake them. You can only "wake" something that's sleeping. And GRRM has definitely shown us a "sleeping dragon": Bloodraven, the Targaryen bastard, who sits "dreaming" in his hollow hill (composed of weirwood roots, and we know that when weirwoods die they turn to stone). I mean, it's a major plot point in The Mystery Knight that a character has a vision of a dragon hatching but the "dragon" is actually a Targaryen, not a flesh-and-blood dragon. Maybe the prophecy doesn't literally refer to a physical dragon?

[Snapu]

I was under the impression that the only reason Bloodraven has remained alive for so long is in order to teach Bran the secrets of greenseers? I haven't thought of it like that.

For the moment are we assuming that the stone dragons at Dragonstone are just that - dragon statues made of stone?

[The Mother of The Others]

So maybe Bran takes over for Raven who disconnects from sleep and burns out in a blaze of glory helping Jon?

Deanerys and Jon both fulfill the requirements for Azor. Danny has the flashier claim, more obvious to any observer. Her star was an actual comet, for example. Whereas Jon fulfils Azor in a low key way, so that only he or Jojen might realize it. The only people who'd know about Jon's bleeding star would be people who were physically there or who heard about it, like the Crannogman. Even folks obsessed with prophecy like Aeron Damphair and Melisandre are looking in a different direction. So if you believe prophecy isn't really meant to be understood by anyone but the subject of the prophecy himself, then Jon looks more likely. If you think prophecy was meant to provide public legitimacy to the Prince's claim, then Daenerys seems favored by fate.

Aemon thought Danny was Azor, and he was an insider with dragon blood. And she's shown the ability to tapdance around doom as if specially fated, whereas Jon hasn't created as much of his success and is sort of just plodding along. So I think they're both tagged as Azor and there will have to be some kind of divine beer pong contest between them to decide a winner. Mayhaps all 3 heads of the dragon are born with the potential to be Azor, and then one of them wins the crown based on merit.

[MtnLion]

Dawn, the sword of House Dayne was forged approximately 2000 years ago, while Azor Ahai forged his sword more than 8000 years ago. I think this pretty much excludes Dawn as being AA's sword.

[Snapu]

Dawn, the sword of House Dayne was forged approximately 2000 years ago, while Azor Ahai forged his sword more than 8000 years ago. I think this pretty much excludes Dawn as being AA's sword.

I'm just connecting the battle for the dawn with the sword that is crucial to winning it - the Sword of Dawn, since we lack a better name for it yet. I don't mean the sword "Dawn" of House Dayne

@Mother of the others

Some have argued that Tyrion has covered all the requirements of the prophecy during the battle of the blackwater. His character "died"/was broken/ completely changed after that battle, as smoke(the wildfire) and salt (the sea) were all around him, the red star was still in the sky and the darkness was gathering in the north.

[thesheik]

I'm in favor of Jon being AA. It's not a sophisticated premise, but among those that are suggested (Dany, Tyrion, Aegon, etc.), Jon is the only one who would probably not want to do it.

Jon has never aspired to glory, but persists due to a sense of duty and integrity.

Dany thinks she is entitled to a continent, as does Aegon. Tyrion is well...Tyrion.

I guess I'm just saying that Jon fits the hero mold.

[thesheik]

And I don't feel like Tyrion changed much after the Blackwater. All that has changed are the ties he cut with his whole life, his personality remains relatively static.