[ADWD SPOILERS] Ned, Brandon and Ashara

[Drogo]

So there is a lot of debate going on about the relationship between Brandon Ned and Ashara.

What we know:

Brandon was considered hot headed by Ned, who still remembers him fondly however. Lady Dustin mentions that Brandon took what he wanted (including her) and was great with swords.

Barristan tells us that Ashara had a still birth girl. He says that she was dishonored because of it(can't remember if he says it was a stark).

Meera tells bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree likely told to her by her father who was there. From that story we know that the Wild Wolf (brandon) had a quiet word with the maid with laughing purple eyes (Ashara) about dancing with the quiet wolf(Ned). Brandon was only two or three years older than Ned so this is a boyish Ned he is a man grown just like Brandon.

From these scraps of information people have put together the theory that Brandon seduced Ashara after she had her dance with Ned, which occurred only because Brandon was a nice older brother/wingman. He impregnated her and left her. Later the baby is stillborn and Barristan forever holds a grudge. Maybe a more likely scenario is that Ned and Ashara sleep together at harrenhal Ashara getrs pregenent but doesn't find out till she gets back to King's Landing/Starfall where she realizes it is Ned's. However Lyanna is gone by now so Brandon rides to the Red Keep yadda yadda yadda War of the Usurper dead Brandon, dead Lyanna, dead Aerys and Rhaegar and Arthur.

Finally Ned arrives at Starfall with Lyanna's baby, Dawn and Dayne's bones (u think he brought them?). Ashara is holding his child. Ned, Ashara, and Wylla formulate the plan that Ashara was impregnated by Brandon (hes dead who will ask him?) and the child was girl who dead in birth. Ashara will fake suicide and take Lyanna's boy with her to raise him as Aegon/Young Griff. Ned takes his bastard back to Winterfell.

House Dayne is from the far south with blood from Valyria as well as the coloring. Jon is still a child of Ice and Fire through Ned and Ashara. The rumor is spread from Starfall that Brandon Stark impregnated AShara which gets to Barristans ears who never forgets or forgives brandon while still liking Ned.

Intricate scheming I know and probably not the most likely scenario I just can't see Brandon impregnating Ashara especially since he was the one who set Ned up with her in the first place. Ned and Ashara used Brandon's death as cover for the birth Jon & Lyanna's boy.

[corbon]

So there is a lot of debate going on about the relationship between Brandon Ned and Ashara.

What we know:

Brandon was considered hot headed by Ned, who still remembers him fondly however. Lady Dustin mentions that Brandon took what he wanted (including her) and was great with swords.

Barristan tells us that Ashara had a still birth girl. He says that she was dishonored because of it(can't remember if he says it was a stark).

Meera tells bran the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree likely told to her by her father who was there. From that story we know that the Wild Wolf (brandon) had a quiet word with the maid with laughing purple eyes (Ashara) about dancing with the quiet wolf(Ned). Brandon was only two or three years older than Ned so this is a boyish Ned he is a man grown just like Brandon.

From these scraps of information people have put together the theory that Brandon seduced Ashara after she had her dance with Ned, which occurred only because Brandon was a nice older brother/wingman. He impregnated her and left her. Later the baby is stillborn and Barristan forever holds a grudge.

You missed out two important points.

Barristan seems to like and respect Ned when they interacted earlier in the series. But he loved Ashara, so it seems unlikely that he would like and respect the man who dishonoured her.

And look at the people Ashara danced with at Harrenhal. Connington, Oberyn Martell, Barristan. And Brandon asked her to dance with Ned. So she is hanging out with probably the 4 most dashing and eligible young men in the kingdom (well, Barristan's a bit older, but something of a legend already) outside Rhaegar. Nearly all are older than Ned, and/or heirs or Lords in their own right. Ned is younger and a second son.

There is absolutely no indication that Ashara ever returned shy Ned's interest, just that she danced with him when the older, bigger, stronger, more handsome, more eligible big brother asked. She might have, but we have no indications she did.

So, we have:

Fact (KotLT story): Lady Ashara Dayne hanging out with a bunch of top dogs.

Fact (KotLT story): One top dog has a younger brother with a bit of a crush, asks Ashara to Dance with him.

Fact (Barristan memory): Ashara was dishonoured by 'a Stark' at Harennhal.

Fact (Dustin story + response to Lyanna 'abduction'): Brandon has a history of dishonouring young noblewomen, as well as rash and irresponsible behaviour.

Fact + character (various sources): Brandon was bigger, stronger, better looking, more fun (wild vs dull shy Ned) and a better catch than Ned, and fits with the crowd Ashara was running with at Harrenhal (whereas Ned is very much the odd one out)

Character: Barristan loved Ashara, thought 'a Stark' dishonoured her, yet still respected Ned.

Speculation: Starfall folks say Ned+Ashara=item, however they may not have known who, or which Stark, dishonoured her at al, and even if they did are Targ loyalists who would support N+A for J cover-story potential.

Speculation: Winterfell folks think N+A=item, but they weren't involved at all until after Ned returned home with Jon, so don't really have much to go on.

Character: Shy and honourable Ned dishonours the girl? Or Wild and dishonourable Brandon dishonours the girl? Things make more sense when people act within their established characters, which does not prevent people from acting outside their usual character.

Maybe a more likely scenario is that Ned and Ashara sleep together at harrenhal

Seems pretty clear that it is in fact considerably less likely that it was Ned. But it is still possible.

Finally Ned arrives at Starfall with Lyanna's baby, Dawn and Dayne's bones (u think he brought them?). Ashara is holding his child. Ned, Ashara, and Wylla formulate the plan that Ashara was impregnated by Brandon (hes dead who will ask him?) and the child was girl who dead in birth. Ashara will fake suicide and take Lyanna's boy with her to raise him as Aegon/Young Griff. Ned takes his bastard back to Winterfell.

Or...

Brandon impregnates Ashara at Harrenhal, but she has a stillborn baby girl (as Barristan believes). Ashara doesn't tell people (or not many people) who the father is and undertakes religious training as she is no longer fit for marriage.

Baby Aegon was switched by Varys (as claimed by Varys) and sent to Essos, picking up Ashara Dayne along the way.

ToJ happens and Ned turns up at Starfall with Jon (R+L=J).

In close proximity to Ned's visit (the same time or shortly after) Ashara 'suicides', diving into the sea and being picked up by Varys' ship carrying baby Aegon.

Various people put 2+2 together and come up with Ashara+Ned@Harrenhal and Ned sees no reason to disabuse them since it provides another cover rumour for Jon.

Ashara becomes Septa Lemore, raising YG (baby Aegon).

Jon becomes Ned Stark's Bastard.

Jon and YG are half-brothers.

House Dayne is from the far south with blood from Valyria as well as the coloring. Jon is still a child of Ice and Fire through Ned and Ashara. The rumor is spread from Starfall that Brandon Stark impregnated AShara which gets to Barristans ears who never forgets or forgives brandon while still liking Ned.

Intricate scheming I know and probably not the most likely scenario I just can't see Brandon impregnating Ashara especially since he was the one who set Ned up with her in the first place. Ned and Ashara used Brandon's death as cover for the birth Jon & Lyanna's boy.

The Daynes don't have Valyrian blood. They are a house much older than the Valyrian incursion into Westeros, 1000s of years old where Aegon only invaded 300 years back.

I think that there are better options that are a lot less intricate and see more people acting within character all the way.

I also think you are stuck with the Ned + Ashara = item theory from before ADwD. That was a sound theory then, as it fitted all the info we had except Ned's honour. But when you look at the fit, it is actually very weak. There is no indication of anything from Ashara's side at Harrenhal, lots of other reasons for 'suicide' and none of the people supporting the rumours of N+A were actually involved until after Ned turns up with Jon (except possibly some Starfall people who have reason to support a N+A cover story).

[MinotaurWarrior]

The Daynes don't have Valyrian blood. They are a house much older than the Valyrian incursion into Westeros, 1000s of years old where Aegon only invaded 300 years back.

House Dayne was founded by the First Men, but has seen a heavy infusion of Valyrian blood since then, giving their members some Valyrian traits (such as Ashara's eyes).

[Faranya]

You missed out two important points.

Barristan seems to like and respect Ned when they interacted earlier in the series. But he loved Ashara, so it seems unlikely that he would like and respect the man who dishonoured her.

And look at the people Ashara danced with at Harrenhal. Connington, Oberyn Martell, Barristan. And Brandon asked her to dance with Ned. So she is hanging out with probably the 4 most dashing and eligible young men in the kingdom (well, Barristan's a bit older, but something of a legend already) outside Rhaegar. Nearly all are older than Ned, and/or heirs or Lords in their own right. Ned is younger and a second son.

There is absolutely no indication that Ashara ever returned shy Ned's interest, just that she danced with him when the older, bigger, stronger, more handsome, more eligible big brother asked. She might have, but we have no indications she did.

So, we have:

Fact (KotLT story): Lady Ashara Dayne hanging out with a bunch of top dogs.

Fact (KotLT story): One top dog has a younger brother with a bit of a crush, asks Ashara to Dance with him.

Fact (Barristan memory): Ashara was dishonoured by 'a Stark' at Harennhal.

Fact (Dustin story + response to Lyanna 'abduction'): Brandon has a history of dishonouring young noblewomen, as well as rash and irresponsible behaviour.

Fact + character (various sources): Brandon was bigger, stronger, better looking, more fun (wild vs dull shy Ned) and a better catch than Ned, and fits with the crowd Ashara was running with at Harrenhal (whereas Ned is very much the odd one out)

Character: Barristan loved Ashara, thought 'a Stark' dishonoured her, yet still respected Ned.

Speculation: Starfall folks say Ned+Ashara=item, however they may not have known who, or which Stark, dishonoured her at al, and even if they did are Targ loyalists who would support N+A for J cover-story potential.

Speculation: Winterfell folks think N+A=item, but they weren't involved at all until after Ned returned home with Jon, so don't really have much to go on.

Character: Shy and honourable Ned dishonours the girl? Or Wild and dishonourable Brandon dishonours the girl? Things make more sense when people act within their established characters, which does not prevent people from acting outside their usual character.

The theory of Ashara and Ned is based largely on them having a purely romantic interest in each other. Ned being a second son is a political concern which would weigh heavily on betrothal discussions, but not so much on trysts.

And the fact that Ned was the odd one out there kind of suggests to me that he is the more likely candidate for who Ashara winds up with. From what we know of Oberyn Martell and Brandon Stark...Martell seems more likely to win if "Handsome, dashing, and cocksure" is what Ashara was looking for...

As for Barristan, he is an old man. I can't imagine him still holding a grudge against Ned, a man he otherwise has every reason to respect, 17-19 years after the event.

[Kadence]

I think the line

his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well.

Is a big hint that it's Brandon (on top of him thinking of "Stark" later, and liking Ned). Brandon was dead and Ashara mourned for him as well.

But frankly, I think this is utterly stupid. The whole Ned-Arthur-Ashara dynamic was beautiful. Really, it was amazingly well done. I thought it was one of the high points of George Martin's writing. One of the reasons the Tower of Joy scene was so bittersweet was that Ned presumably was in love with Arthur Dayne's sister.

And throughout the first 3 books, every rumor we hear is about Ned and Ashara. From Catelyn thinking about gossip to Edric Dayne to the KotL story (which retroactively can support Brandon, but at the time it certainly had more emotional impact on the reader if it was about Ned-Ashara). This Brandon-Ashara stuff is out of almost nowhere. The only hint - which isn't even really a hint - that it was Brandon, is that one line where Ned complains that "everything" was meant for Brandon.

Ashara's arc is much more tragic if the man she fell in love with at Harrenhal ended up killing her brother, out of duty. If it was Brandon she had a fling with then the story suffers so much.

[sedeyus]

But frankly, I think this is utterly stupid. The whole Ned-Arthur-Ashara dynamic was beautiful. Really, it was amazingly well done. I thought it was one of the high points of George Martin's writing. One of the reasons the Tower of Joy scene was so bittersweet was that Ned presumably was in love with Arthur Dayne's sister.

Ashara's arc is much more tragic if the man she fell in love with at Harrenhal ended up killing her brother, out of duty. If it was Brandon she had a fling with then the story suffers so much.

I absolutely agree wtih this. We haven't met Brandon and never will. Why suddenly throw him into the relationship between Ned and Ashara and ruin their dynamic? What's to be gained storywise, other than one more hint that Ashara wasn't Jon's mother?

I think an issue popping up is that GRRM has been writing this series for so long and we've all been speculating on these theories for so long, that GRRM is beginning to mess with key elements of backstory to make things more 'interesting'.

[Kadence]

And the fact that Ned was the odd one out there kind of suggests to me that he is the more likely candidate for who Ashara winds up with. From what we know of Oberyn Martell and Brandon Stark...Martell seems more likely to win if "Handsome, dashing, and cocksure" is what Ashara was looking

Yes, this is part of why the impact of the KotL story is large. It's a beautifully woven story, from the Lyanna and Rhaeghar stuff to the Ashara-Ned stuff. Ashara is basically the most gorgeous girl around, and dancing with the most handsome and eligible men around. Yes she falls for the "Quiet Wolf" - and we all know the epic tragedy that follows.

But now, she's with Brandon? It really hurts the entire Ashara story so much. I'm very disappointed if Martin is choosing to go this route. I sincerely hope that this Brandon stuff is just a misdirection, but I suspect it's not.

Note that Ashara marrying a second son like Ned isn't really weird. Ashara wasn't from some great house, and Ned while a second son was still from one of the 8 greatest houses in the kingdom. That's a big deal. And she couldn't really hope to marry Brandon, she's too lowborn for him and a Southerner (an old loyal vassal for an equivalent house would have a better shot). Oberyn perhaps would make a good match but he has the exact same status as Ned (second son of a great house), he's just more charismatic. So Ashara and Ned would make a sensible match, politically. Until Ned becomes the heir at which point she's too lowborn again.

As for Barristan, he is an old man. I can't imagine him still holding a grudge against Ned, a man he otherwise has every reason to respect, 17-19 years after the event.

I think Barristan would definitely hold a grudge when it came to Ashara. Though you could argue he did hold some grudge against Ned, but hid it well due to professionalism - and then liked when Ned defended Dany from Robert.

But the whole way Barristan things about the situation is too suspicious for me to think Ned dishonored Ashara. Especially the mad with grief for the man who dishonored her part. With Ned it would work in terms of him marrying Catelyn...but the wording seems to hint it was for the man himself who died, rather than the man marrying. Also, you'd think Barristan would think on how the man she loved killing her brother would be part of the reason for her grief.

[Kadence]

I absolutely agree wtih this. We haven't met Brandon and never will. Why suddenly throw him into the relationship between Ned and Ashara and ruin their dynamic? What's to be gained storywise, other than one more hint that Ashara wasn't Jon's mother?

I think an issue popping up is that GRRM has been writing this series for so long and we've all been speculating on these theories for so long, that GRRM is beginning to mess with key elements of backstory to make things more 'interesting'.

Yes I suspect this as well.

I think this may have been something Martin cooked up one day as a "Hey you know what, wouldn't it be great if..." thing, just as a "surprise". But it truly makes the story weaker. The Tower of Joy and KotL stories, two of the highest points of the series, play much weaker now in terms of emotional impact.

Ashara is also less intriguing as a character. She's always had a profound impact as a character on readers despite having all of five lines dedicated to her. Her character takes a huge hit with this in terms of emotional resonance and impact.

I really, really hope Martin ditches this notion. And I don't think Brandon-Ashara was an idea he originally had - anything Martin thinks of, he foreshadows a lot. Brandon-Ashara had not one bit of anything hinting towards it. In contrast, the Ned-Arthur-Ashara dynamic seemed perfectly set up, capped off by the now married Ned laying Dawn at Ashara's feet to signify her brother was dead. It is just such epic tragedy. Martin seemed to weave all the elements like a master. It's almost a story that demands a novel unto itself.

So it seems very dubious to think Brandon-Ashara was the idea he originally had in mind. I hope Martin realizes that the story works much better if Ashara loved Ned, not Brandon. But the whole "dishonored her" thing and leaving her pregnant seems like it might leave us stuck with Brandon, since that's so un-Ned like. That is Martin's big hint that it's Brandon. Hopefully he can work something out with that (Ned not knowing she was pregnant or something). I have my fingers crossed but, I think Brandon-Ashara will be the pairing we get.

[Lord Crispy of Bacon]

I'm also starting to wonder if there actually was a rebellion brewing at Harrenhal in the year of the false spring, as Varys warned Aerys,what with Rickard planning all these southern alliances.

[Calico]

I think the line

-quote-

Is a big hint that it's Brandon (on top of him thinking of "Stark" later, and liking Ned). Brandon was dead and Ashara mourned for him as well.

If it were referring to a man she had lost, it would say something like "mourning for the lost child, and perhaps the man who had dishonored her" rather than "mourning for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her". Subtly different -- one, you can modify "lost" to "man who had dishonored her", the other, the modifier is only "mourning" because "for" is present. (could be just me, but it's grammatically strange).

In this way, the reading implies that Ashara was mourning for the man, not for the LOST man. As in, brother-killer Ned's already married.

The other quote about Brandon getting everything is suspicious, but if it stands alone then it's not much to go from. I kind of hate the Brandon-Ashara theory too ahah.

[Marcus of the South]

House Dayne was founded by the First Men, but has seen a heavy infusion of Valyrian blood since then, giving their members some Valyrian traits (such as Ashara's eyes).

I would have to consult my notes to tell you the Dayne arms. Offhand I don't recall. As for the violet eyes . . . look, Elizabeth Taylor has violet eyes, and she's not of Valyrian descent (that I know). Nor is she related to Aegon the Conquerer.

http://web.archive.org/web/20001005212114/eventhorizon.com/sfzine/chats/transcripts/031899.html

It's not a given that the Daynes have any Valyrian blood at all.

[Abel]

why can`t the shy wolf be benjen?

dishonoring a noble woman is a good reason for being sent to the wall.

why and when did he go off to be a black brother?

[AK74Bob]

What are the ages of the Stark siblings during the tourney at Harrenhal?

[Kadence]

If it were referring to a man she had lost, it would say something like "mourning for the lost child, and perhaps the man who had dishonored her" rather than "mourning for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her". Subtly different -- one, you can modify "lost" to "man who had dishonored her", the other, the modifier is only "mourning" because "for" is present. (could be just me, but it's grammatically strange).

In this way, the reading implies that Ashara was mourning for the man, not for the LOST man. As in, brother-killer Ned's already married.

I'm...not sure I really follow this reasoning?

To me the wording seems to hint at Brandon, because Martin is clearly being intentionally tricky. If it was Ned as assumed previously why be tricky? Either to misdirect, or because Martin came up with the brilliant (*cough*) idea to change it to Brandon.

Again, hopefully he decides to stick with Ned and is just muddling matters up. We know Martin loves to muddle.

why can`t the shy wolf be benjen?

dishonoring a noble woman is a good reason for being sent to the wall.

why and when did he go off to be a black brother?

There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

Benjen=pup=youngest, clearly Ned is the quiet wolf who was "too shy to leave his bench". And Benjen never danced with her. There is no reason at all to believe it was Benjen. Perhaps Benjen sinned as some theorize, or perhaps it was just tradition. Northerners have a history of sending younger sons to the Wall. Most likely, the recruiter at Harrhenhal (some has theorized this was Mance) filled Benjen's head with ideas and it was his choice.

[corbon]

House Dayne was founded by the First Men, but has seen a heavy infusion of Valyrian blood since then, giving their members some Valyrian traits (such as Ashara's eyes).

Evidence please?

As has been noted, purple eyes are found on our world too, with no Valyrion blood. So has silver hair.

[corbon]

But frankly, I think this is utterly stupid. The whole Ned-Arthur-Ashara dynamic was beautiful. Really, it was amazingly well done. I thought it was one of the high points of George Martin's writing. One of the reasons the Tower of Joy scene was so bittersweet was that Ned presumably was in love with Arthur Dayne's sister.

Really? But all we had was one stylised line in the KotLT story and a reported suicide. We made the connections, not GRRM.

I don't think it is any less beautifully (and sparsely!) written just because it was deceptive, if accurate.

And yes, Ned at least appears to have had a crush on Ashara, and that doesn't change, so neither does the impact of ToJ scene. If anything, it is expanded now.

Ned, loving Ashara, despite his brother's callous despoiling of her, must kill her brother. Now he is feeling it double. Brandon dishonoured her, and Ned has to kill her brother, and he still has an unrequited love (crush) for her.

And throughout the first 3 books, every rumor we hear is about Ned and Ashara. From Catelyn thinking about gossip to Edric Dayne to the KotL story (which retroactively can support Brandon, but at the time it certainly had more emotional impact on the reader if it was about Ned-Ashara). This Brandon-Ashara stuff is out of almost nowhere. The only hint - which isn't even really a hint - that it was Brandon, is that one line where Ned complains that "everything" was meant for Brandon.

Its not entirely out of nowhere. It is clear, now that we know to pay attention, that Ashara was hanging with an older and more powerful/promising 'set' than Ned at Harrenhal. Before, the other dance partners we were given told us nothing much (so why were they added), now they are a clue.

And Ashara's "suicide" was always an obvious fake out, even though we didn't have any reason why. And now we have met Septa Lemore, we have a strong guess why.

So the suicide tells us nothing (besides having several alternate explanations aside from N+A) and the only thing we have apart from post-Jon rumour, is the Laughing Maid with violet eyes dancing once with the Shy Wolf at the request of the Wild Wolf. Which actually points to the Wild Wolf being closer to her than the Shy Wolf.

Further, we now have explanations that have characters acting within character. Ned is honourable, Brandon is not (Lady Dustin as evidence). Thus, a dishonourable action is more likely to come from Brandon.

People can act out of character, but given two explanations where they act within character vs they act against character, it is clear which is more likely.

Ashara's arc is much more tragic if the man she fell in love with at Harrenhal ended up killing her brother, out of duty. If it was Brandon she had a fling with then the story suffers so much.

But it is Ned's story, not Ashara's. Now Ned has double pain for his love/crush. And Ashara is still tragic as one brother she loved ruined her and his younger brother killed her brother.

One last point.

How much is it Martin's style to have a true, honest to goodness, romantic tragedy, with all the right (wrong) moves?

Or, to start with what appears to be a great romantic tragedy and deconstruct it into something a lot more sordid and messed up and REAL? Yet STILL tragic.

[Morrigan]

Has anyone considered that the "dishonouring" could be... rape? What if a drunk Brandon Stark raped Ashara at Harrenhal? I know, the Starks are all the heroes and stuff and we don't want to think of them like that, but we don't really know a lot about Brandon Stark. The whole "dishonouring" part is throwing me off though.

[sedeyus]

Here's some questions I have: Where was Barristan during the war? More to the point, did he see Ashara during the war? Did he know for sure she was pregnant or just hear about it after Ashara's 'suicide'?

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

Just because a Dustin girl makes aspersions about Brandon, does not make him, all of a sudden, a bragging philanderer.

And Selmy's words don't count because he didn't mention which Stark.

[Maia]

But frankly, I think this is utterly stupid. The whole Ned-Arthur-Ashara dynamic was beautiful. Really, it was amazingly well done. I thought it was one of the high points of George Martin's writing. One of the reasons the Tower of Joy scene was so bittersweet was that Ned presumably was in love with Arthur Dayne's sister.

I always felt that it was very contrived, personally. Such love, such tragedy and Ned never even thought about Ashara? Not one single time? And he never felt crushing guilt for what happened? Made him look like a callous jerk to me. IMHO, the Brandon thing fits much better.

BTW we had one more hint re: Brandon - when Tywin said "Robb is his father's son" in the context of Robb breaking his Frey betrothal for another. It never made sense in the terms of Ned+Ashara, but now it does.

Barristan's thoughts re: how young girls would chose fire over mud, even though fire is likely to destroy them also supports this. Brandon was the fiery, wild one.

I strongly suspect that Ashara somehow revealed the location of ToJ to Ned and that was the reason for her (real) suicide. Lemore is too old to be her, IMHO and Ashara's violet eyes were her most arresting feature, which I don't see Tyrion not noticing/mentioning.