[ADWD SPOILERS] Ned, Brandon and Ashara

[inkasrain]

I think you're presupposing a lot here. You're just basing a lot on Brandon based off very little, and potentially biased, information.

Sure, I could be. But I don't think Lady Dustin's story is included in the same book as Barristan's reminiscences by coincidence, and I don't know why she would lie about (or invent) her sexual encounter with Brandon when her only witnesses are stone kings and the walking corpse of Theon Greyjoy.

Sort of the same deal with Ned. I think a lot of the theories that suggest Ned was with Ashara suggest that he was willing to forego his honor out of love, which would be extremely consistent with his character.

Then maybe he should have acted honorably on his love and married her? That's what the Ned I know would have done.

But regardless, you're being a little generous with Ned's willingness to put aside his honor "for love." Making that sacrifice in order to protect the lives of his sister's son and later, his own daughter, is a touch different than chucking honor out of the window for sex. Ned is not mercurial in this; it is the desperation born of love which forces him to compromise his honor, not love for its own sake.

[Starks in the Crypt]

Ok. I was looking back over the chapter where Selmy has the quotes about Ashara being dishonoured and "looking to Stark". Not to recap a crackpot idea that Rhaeger dishonured Ashara and then Ashara "looked to Stark" afterwards, as I talked about it in an earlier post, but some of Selmy's other thoughts in the same chapter were interesting as regards this crackpot theory.

"Plots, ploys, lies, secrets within secrets and somehow i have become part of them...The red keep had its secrets to. Even Rhaeger...(he)had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that"

This can be read as Rhaeger and his secret love for Lyanna is the secret perhaps but if Rhaeger had looked to plant a "head of the dragon" in Ashara, he might have kept it secret from Selmy if he was displaying an attraction to Ashara.

Earlier part of the quote about dishonour and "looking to Stark":

"Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen (Dany) looked at him, he felt he were looking at Ashara's daughter. But Ashara's daughter had been stillborn..."

The first time I read this I thought, oh Dany looks like what Selmy imagines Ashara's daughter would look like. But no, it reads more like Selmy was present to see Ashara's stillborn daughter and she had eyes like Dany. Now...this may mean nothing. Ashara has "haunting purple eyes" per Selmy. The stillborn daughter could have received that trait from Ashara. But we have had a lot of GRRM genetics and the seed is strong. Dany and Ashara's baby having the "same eyes" could be telling in terms of family resemblence. If Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaeger, Stark DNA trumped Targ DNA in the looks department with Jon. A Brandon-Ashara baby (or Ashara-Ned baby), might be expected to have the Stark grey eyes and maybe a "horse face". I would not claim this as any definitive proof (Ned and Cat's kids look different from one another as do Cersei and Jaime's for that matter), but it certainly does not disprove an alternate possibility to Ashara and a non-Stark tryst.

[Efilnikufesin]

Then maybe he should have acted honorably on his love and married her? That's what the Ned I know would have done.

Yes, but most likely, they would need approval from their houses in order to do so, and at this point Ned was still young and prone to making a teenager's mistake as well.

[inkasrain]

Yes, but most likely, they would need approval from their houses in order to do so, and at this point Ned was still young and prone to making a teenager's mistake as well.

And why wouldn't they have received approval to marry? Neither was betrothed at the time. From the Dayne's perspective, it would have been a great match even if Ned hadn't deflowered their daughter. Rickard Stark might well have been aiming for higher than Starfall for Ned, but Ashara's birth is still excellent, and we have every reason to assume that he would agree that marrying Ashara was the appropriate course of action once the deed was done.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yes, but most likely, they would need approval from their houses in order to do so, and at this point Ned was still young and prone to making a teenager's mistake as well.

Exactly.

Plus, if Brandon had a stillborn child with Ashara Dayne, it raises an important point:

WHO CARES?

I mean, seriously. All the characters involved are minor ones that were dead long before the story begins. The only reason as to why Ashara Dayne getting pregnant would have any importance is that she loved one of the most important characters of the series and child was his.

A secondary aspect is to show that Barristan was good enough to forgive the man who dishonoured the woman she loved and even form a friendship with him when they worked together.

Now, if Ashara Dayne had a stillborn child with a man that was dead 15 years before the story begins, it's irrelevant, and Barristan not taking into consideration the fact that Brandon Stark got Ashara pregnant in his relationship with Ned is nothing special, after all, how's Ned at fault for that?

[Efilnikufesin]

And why wouldn't they have received approval to marry? Neither was betrothed at the time. From the Dayne's perspective, it would have been a great match even if Ned hadn't deflowered their daughter. Rickard Stark might well have been aiming for higher than Starfall for Ned, but Ashara's birth is still excellent, and we have every reason to assume that he would agree that marrying Ashara was the appropriate course of action once the deed was done.

Ned is from the greatest house in the North, and Lord Rickard at the time was betrothing his children to "Major" houses(Riverrun and Storm's End.) House Dayne, though an old and respected house, is not Sunspear.

[Mark3]

Plus, if Brandon had a stillborn child with Ashara Dayne, it raises an important point:

WHO CARES?

This is the single greatest argument against a Brandon/Ashara affair. Two characters we know next to nothing about had an illicit affair. Yeah...

...wake me when the Others get here.

[Silverin]

Yes, but most likely, they would need approval from their houses in order to do so, and at this point Ned was still young and prone to making a teenager's mistake as well.

Yet Robb married Jeyne right away, without consulting Cat, or anyone else. And because of that they called him Ned's son.

Although befor this book I too thought that Ned and Ashara were in love, but I always thought it was platonic and they never had sex. As many mentioned it does not fit with Ned's character to sleep with her and not to marry. At that time Brandon was the heir, he was the second son, so all the more why he would choose to marry her.

But the moment Barristan said she had a stillborn daughter the Ashara/Ned pairing in my mind crumbled. And when Barisstan just simply said she choose Stark I too tought about Brandon as well, and it did made more sense. The way Lady Dustin told, he would not sweat much sweet about dishonoring a highborn lady. And the fact he himself only said the familiy name, if GRRM didnt wanted to hint that it might be actually Brandon, he would just simply state Eddard Stark. I think he would just said Ned Stark. After all in his monoloug all the other players are named with their full name,Lyanna Stark,Elia of Dorne, Ashara Dayne, Arthur Dayne, etcc. The only ones he does not, and uses the first name are Rhaegar and Ashara whom obviously mean more to him. And prove me wrong but he always refers to Ned with his full name. Not to mention his remamrk about how young girs chhose fire (Brandon) and not mud (Ned) that would nurish them. I too agree it fits more to Brandon's personality.

But here is another thought. Barristan does not say that the one who dishonoured her at Harrenhal (made her pregnant), is the one she actually choose. We know she choose a Stark (Brandon or Ned, I think she choose Brandon), but the dishonouring itself could be rape by someone else as well.

At Harrenhal Ashara danced with a white cloack, a red viper, a griffin, and after persuaded by the wild wolf with the shy wolf.

I don't think that the reason these was mentioned was just coincidence. She already has connection to the white (Barristan and her brother, both could be), there is a theory that she might be the septa with Connington (though if he danced with her why didn't he recogniz her, well maybe becaus he only had eyes for Rhaegar).

But what about Oberyn? That is my question.

About the WHO CARES thing, if Ashara actually is still alive, it could matter. She could be holding a grudge against the Starks (becuase Brandon didnt marry her), or against the Targs (becuase they burned Brandon), depending on her feelings, and her intentions could be very important.

[Efilnikufesin]

This is the single greatest argument against a Brandon/Ashara affair. Two characters we know next to nothing about had an illicit affair. Yeah...

...wake me when the Others get here.

I was thinking the same, if there was an affair between Ashara and Brandon, why not blame Jon's parentage on that? Though it might offend Catelyn a bit, it would offend her less than Jon being Ned's, as well as conceal his possible Targ father.

[Efilnikufesin]

Yet Robb married Jeyne right away, without consulting Cat, or anyone else. And because of that they called him Ned's son.

Yes, but Catelyn is not Lord Rickard. Though not much is mentioned of him, I doubt he was a very pliable man.

She already has connection to the white (Barristan and her brother, both could be)

The white sword is Arthur Dayne, it is mentioned that he is the white sword in the story.

[Efilnikufesin]

About the WHO CARES thing, if Ashara actually is still alive, it could matter. She could be holding a grudge against the Starks (becuase Brandon didnt marry her), or against the Targs (becuase they burned Brandon), depending on her feelings, and her intentions could be very important.

What power does she have to do anything about it being septa Lemore? Though Connington keeps her around, he also dismisses her opinion without even blinking a couple of times.

[inkasrain]

Exactly.

Plus, if Brandon had a stillborn child with Ashara Dayne, it raises an important point:

WHO CARES?

I don't understand this argument at all. Who cares if Ned and Ashara had a stillborn baby? Unless the kid was Jon (ha), Ned's fathering Ashara's child is just as unimportant as Brandon's affair(s).

Ned is from the greatest house in the North, and Lord Rickard at the time was betrothing his children to "Major" houses(Riverrun and Storm's End.) House Dayne, though an old and respected house, is not Sunspear.

Yup. But when your unattached middle son knocks up a noble girl, the honorable thing is for him to marry her. Why wouldn't Rickard think this way? There's nothing to indicate that his ambition as a lord was stronger than his sense of Stark honor.

[Mark3]

I was thinking the same, if there was an affair between Ashara and Brandon, why not blame Jon's parentage on that? Though it might offend Catelyn a bit, it would offend her less than Jon being Ned's, as well as conceal his possible Targ father.

I have myself wondered why Ned didn't just blame Jon on Brandon. I guess, aside from the fact that Brandon was probably too dead to be Jon's daddy, the crux of it is that Ned never lies. Even when protecting Jon, he's careful to use wiggle words rather than just lying. He says stuff like "Jon is my blood, that is all I will say on the matter."

Along those lines, I guess it would be interesting to note that Ned does not deny involvement with Ashara when Catelyn asks him about it...

[Efilnikufesin]

...wake me when the Others get here.

So true, I was hoping against all hope to see some fighting between the NW and the Others in this book, though they seem to be the true enemy in all this (could be along with R'hllor as well, being that there many be many deities or or simply one with with many faces i.e. R'hllor and the Great Other being one and the same (Many Faced God),) we have had only two brief glimpses in five books.

[Mark3]

I don't understand this argument at all. Who cares if Ned and Ashara had a stillborn baby? Unless the kid was Jon (ha), Ned's fathering Ashara's child is just as unimportant as Brandon's affair(s).

While whether or not a baby resulted from the affair is less relevant, a Ned/Ashara affair means a great deal indeed to Ned's character and backstory, for 2 major reasons:

1. It means he would have had to set aside his first love out of duty. Obviously, this is just the sot of thing that speaks to the sacrifices Ned has to make for the sake of duty and honor.

2. It adds a layer of tragedy and poignancy to his battle against Arthur Dayne. Ned and Asahra's houses wind up on opposite sides, and Ned is forced to kill her brother.

3. It adds yet another heart-rending angle to the whole "Ned delivering Dawn back to Starfall" event if they were indeed former lovers.

[Efilnikufesin]

Yup. But when your unattached middle son knocks up a noble girl, the honorable thing is for him to marry her. Why wouldn't Rickard think this way? There's nothing to indicate that his ambition as a lord was stronger than his sense of Stark honor.

She is a noble girl, but yet not from the ruling house in the Casterly Rock, Storm's End, Riverlands, Dorne, The Vale, or Highgarden. Starfell though old and respected holds no great power.

[inkasrain]

While whether or not a baby resulted from the affair is less relevant, a Ned/Ashara affair means a great deal indeed to Ned's character and backstory, for 2 major reasons:

1. It means he would have had to set aside his first love out of duty. Obviously, this is just the sot of thing that speaks to the sacrifices Ned has to make for the sake of duty and honor.

2. It adds a layer of tragedy and poignancy to his battle against Arthur Dayne. Ned and Asahra's houses wind up on opposite sides, and Ned is forced to kill her brother.

3. It adds yet another heart-rending angle to the whole "Ned delivering Dawn back to Starfall" event if they were indeed former lovers.

These are all nice pluses if you go for them, but they are extraneous. We know Ned sticks to his honor like char on a barbecue, and we've witnessed firsthand the sacrifices he's made in this regard. Ned as a character loses nothing if Brandon were the one involved with Ashara, whereas we gain a significant understanding of the type of person Brandon was.

Ned being forced to kill Arthur Dayne, a man he clearly holds in highest regard, is sad enough as-is, just like his returning Dawn to Starfall. Again, you can prefer that extra layer, but the story (and the tragedy) and not in any way diminished by the idea that the story didn't play out the way we'd all assumed it did.

She is a noble girl, but yet not from the ruling house in the Casterly Rock, Storm's End, Riverlands, Dorne, The Vale, or Highgarden. Starfell though old and respected holds no great power.

This is all great evidence that Rickard Stark would have preferred that Ned have tumbled Cersei instead of Ashara. It doesn't do a thing for your point that he never would have allowed Ned to marry the girl he deflowered and impregnated.

[Efilnikufesin]

These are all nice pluses if you go for them, but they are extraneous. We know Ned sticks to his honor like char on a barbecue, and we've witnessed firsthand the sacrifices he's made in this regard. Ned as a character loses nothing if Brandon were the one involved with Ashara, whereas we gain a significant understanding of the type of person Brandon was.

Ned being forced to kill Arthur Dayne, a man he clearly holds in highest regard, is sad enough as-is, just like his returning Dawn to Starfall. Again, you can prefer that extra layer, but the story (and the tragedy) and not in any way diminished by the idea that the story didn't play out the way we'd all assumed it did.

This is all great evidence that Rickard Stark would have preferred that Ned have tumbled Cersei instead of Ashara. It doesn't do a thing for your point that he never would have allowed Ned to marry the girl he deflowered and impregnated.

There is also nothing to say that he was obligated to marry anyone for getting them pregnant anyway. We see many bastards throughout the entire series.

[Silverin]

What power does she have to do anything about it being septa Lemore? Though Connington keeps her around, he also dismisses her opinion without even blinking a couple of times.

Well since the story of Aegon just yet begun, I would not say what important and what is not, it is way too early to tell.

Not to mention it is not confirmed that she is indeed Ashara.

Again if the choosen Stark is so obviously Ned, Barristan would think she choose Ned Stark. The reason why it was just simply Stark because it hints that he might not be the one Ashara had an affair with.

[Mark3]

These are all nice pluses if you go for them, but they are extraneous. We know Ned sticks to his honor like char on a barbecue, and we've witnessed firsthand the sacrifices he's made in this regard. Ned as a character loses nothing if Brandon were the one involved with Ashara, whereas we gain a significant understanding of the type of person Brandon was.

Ned being forced to kill Arthur Dayne, a man he clearly holds in highest regard, is sad enough as-is, just like his returning Dawn to Starfall. Again, you can prefer that extra layer, but the story (and the tragedy) and not in any way diminished by the idea that the story didn't play out the way we'd all assumed it did.

Totally disagree. People have to fight and sometimes kill men they respect all the time in Westeros - Jon and the Halfhand, Jon and Mance (before he's hip to the illusion), Areo Hotah and Arys Oakheart, Victarion Greyjoy and young Lord Serry, hell even Varys and Kevan Lannister. Killing a man you respect - in Westeros they call that a Tuesday.

Now - you and your first great love ending up on opposite sides of a civil war; you having to come face-to-face with her brother, who is the greatest and most renowned knight in the land; slaying him and delivering his legendary sword back to her home; having one final meeting with girl you once loved - being forced to tell you can now never be together, and by the way I had to Ice your brother - that's hard, man.

If Ned and Ashara were lovers - that's Shakespeare. If they weren't - well, that's Michael Bay.