[ADWD SPOILERS] Ned, Brandon and Ashara

[Markus]

I'm astonished that anyone would give any weight at all to this "Ned never thought about Ashara" stuff.

If Ned was in love with Ashara, had sex with her, couldn't marry her, had a baby with her, killed her brother and believed she committed suicide for all the things he had done to her Ned would have had more reason to think about her than about anything else, I think. It would've been even more intimately traumatic -- in contrast to the fate of Brandon and Rickard, which Ned didn't witness and had no hand in -- than even what happened with Lyanna. It would've been the defining events of his life one might argue.

And we know -- that for all GRRM not wanting to tell us too many secrets -- that Ned was thinking about Lyanna and his promises to her and the prices he had to pay quite often. So one is left with the impression that either Ashara wasn't that important in Ned's life or that GRRM changed the story. Anybody is left to draw his or her own conclusions which is correct. For myself, I see no compelling evidence that the hints for Ned + Ashara couldn't have been misdirection from the start to cloud Jon's parentage and Brandon's connection to Ashara.

Also people are bringing up this stuff with Robb and Jeyne and how Robb was "his father's son", ... Tywin's random thought is meaningless because it's not even consistent with what Tywin thinks he knows (that Jon is Ned's).

Tywin's remark may not be compelling evidence, but it isn't meaningless either. If Tywin would've thought that Ned fathered Jon on Ashara without to marry her then one might doubt that he would ever call Robb his father's son when Robb married Jeyne. So Tywin probably didn't think Ashara was the mother. Which doesn't prove much, but is still interesting.

It's also unclear if he ever thought about Ashara in more indirect ways - if he and Ashara were never a couple, what were these tragic "prices" Ned had to pay to keep his promise?

Ned thought he paid a "price", not a "tragic price". What he could have meant by this? Lying/deceiving to keep Jon's parentage secret and all it entailed. Including deceiving his wife, which burdened his marriage according to Cat and deceiving his best friend and King, which can be seen as treason. It also meant that he was thought of as a guy who betrayed his wife by all of Westeros, a dishonorable guy.

If you read into the text in the way people normally read into Martin's text (which is the exact reason this Brandon theory now exists), then Ashara's suicide (or Ned believing she killed herself) seemed like a plausible explanation for this "price".

The price Ned paid was a result of his lies in the last 14 years. Which lies of Ned led to Ashara's suicide? As for why this Brandon theory exists, I would argue it exists because the text supports it more any other theory. In fact, it's the only plausible though not the only possible theory supported by the text.

I do believe that Dance is hinting towards Brandon+Ashara but I am extremely skeptical at this notion that Martin always intended Brandon+Ashara. It just doesn't add up. In previous books we've got:

The things you list don't show GRRM's original intent though. Nothing you cite couldn't be seen as reasonable, intentional misdirection. But let me address some points:

With regard to what the Daynes think, we only know what Edric and Allyria believe, and they are most likely too young to have reliable knowledge, in particular compared to someone like Selmy who actually was at Harrenhal and at court with Ashara and who also knew Ashara's brother.

Cersei was throwing out Ashara's name to rile Ned up. We don't know that she thinks Ashara was Jon's mother. Note that Tywin doesn't seem to think that Ashara is the mother. Nor do "all nobles" seem to think it was Ashara. See Robert or Lord Borrell for other examples.

We don't know what the Reed family thinks. All we hear is that Meera mentions Ned dancing with Ashara after Brandon asked it of her.

There were also good reasons why Ned couldn't tell people that Jon is the son of Brandon and Ashara. First, Jon is too young. He was probably conceived close to half a year after Brandon's arrest. In a young child this would be noticeable. Second, if he isn't Ashara's child what is Ned going to say when her relatives deny Ned's claim? Not the best way to hide Jon's parentage, I would say.

As for what constitutes good writing and a compelling story, perhaps GRRM has a different idea about this than some of his readers? I would be reluctant to make my own preferences the principal argument for or against a theory, in any case.

[Andre]

And one more thing: Even if your suggestion were possible: Eddard is all about the "the man who passes the sentence should wield the sword". If we believe that he promised to lyanna to keep jon´s secret safe, would he use his dead brothers honour to do so by telling about the - in this case, convenient - affair that one had with ashara? Or would he rather sacrifice his own personal honour by letting everyone belief he had a tryst with ashara before his marriage with catelyn which continued for a short time afterwards?

[Maia]

Tywin, who in all likelihood has heard the same thing as Cersei - that Ashara was the mother. Tywin's random thought is meaningless because it's not even consistent with what Tywin thinks he knows (that Jon is Ned's).

Or maybe Tywin knew that Ashara was _not_ the mother? Being better informed and generally sharper than Cersei and all...

It's also unclear if he ever thought about Ashara in more indirect ways - if he and Ashara were never a couple, what were these tragic "prices" Ned had to pay to keep his promise?

Betrayal of Robert's trust, shaming of Catelyn, causing Jon pain, lies - more than enough. I fail to see how Ashara could be related to those "prices" either way. It isn't like Ned proclaimed her as Jon's mother - people invented this stuff themselves.

Now all our previous evidence for Ned+Ashara is part of some wild and convolated conspiracy theory with secret babies all over the place - a wild and whacky conspiracy that makes no damn sense when Jon could be presented as Brandon's kid to begin with, saving everybody trouble,

Jon is way too young to be presented as Brandon's or Benjen's for that matter. I am sure that Benjen would have been willing to claim him and spare Ned, Cat and Jon all the pain, if it had been possible at all.

Nor do I see why Ned going to Starfall would have been safer if he had been Ashara's faithless lover and father of her child. Or why Daynes would have liked and respected him for all that and causing Ashara's suicide besides.

Face it, a lot of stuff around Ned+Ashara just didn't make sense to begin with. Like, why the honorable, unpledged Ned didn't offer her marriage although there were at least a few months between Harrenhal and Brandon storming to KL. Which is why I always doubted that there was anything between them at all.

If Ned was in love with Ashara, had sex with her, couldn't marry her, had a baby with her, killed her brother and believed she committed suicide for all the things he had done to her Ned would have had more reason to think about her than about anything else, I think. It would've been even more intimately traumatic -- in contrast to the fate of Brandon and Rickard, which Ned didn't witness and had no hand in -- than even what happened with Lyanna. It would've been the defining events of his life one might argue.

This, 200% this.

[Markus]

But yes, going to Starfall with Howland Reed, Jon and a wetnurse hardly seems safe when you've just killed the most famous Dayne and have no relationship with Ashara other than being her former lover's brother, and were on opposite sides of the war. Even if Ned was brave enough it seems like a careless way to risk Jon's life. He could always have Dawn returned later by some escort and some letter "your noble son fought bravely" - but if he and Ashara were in love it would make sense that he felt obligated to return the sword personally, because not going in person to tell her what happened would seem callous and cruel. Also he'd feel very safe then. Just something else where Brandon+Ashara forces you into believing things that are implausible.

We don't actually know who accompanied Ned to Starfall. While we know that Ned didn't bring his army with him to Dorne, it's by no means sure that he couldn't have had more men in Dorne than he took to the fight at the Tower of Joy.

I still fail to see why Ned would've been safer with the Daynes if he had dishonored Ashara than if Brandon would have done it. Ashara's relatives may have been more reluctant to harm somebody who didn't dishonor Ashara than somebody who did after all.

And I don't think it's implausible at all that Ned would have wanted to bring back Dawn personally even when there wasn't a romance between him and Ashara. Ned clearly admired Arthur Dayne a great deal and was sad that he had to kill him. He also may have felt something for Ashara and may've known that his brother had treated Ashara very ill and that Ashara had had a stillbirth. These are all plausible reasons to return Dawn personally, to express his respect and regret personally and to distance himself from Brandon's behavior towards Ashara.

Moreover, there is also the possibility that Jon wasn't at the Tower of Joy but had been brought to Starfall, in which case Ned had to go personally, of course.

[Kadence]

But saying Brandon was Jon´s father wouldn´t work. The timeframe doesn´t fit, if the dates in the wiki are to be believed (don´t have the books at hand to check) According to the wiki, Jon was born too long after brandons death. So basically, Eddard would have to go round saying: Yes, well, Brandon banged Ashara. While married to Catelyn. And then I did. While married to Catelyn. Still better to keep quiet and not say anything at all, to my mind.

The war lasted less than a year or so and Brandon was obviously killed at the very start. The timing would work fine. It would require Brandon to cheat on Catelyn while betrothed, but that's the case either way if the story is true.

Also it's unclear when Ashara's stillborn daughter was born - one would think it was conceived at Harrenhal, but then that doesn't mesh with Barristan thinking she committed suicide mad with grief for that daughter, since she killed herself two or three years after Harrenhal. The implication seems to be that the daughter was stillborn closer to Ashara's death, although the timeline in general is very unclear. Martin really doesn't like timelines and prefers to keep things vague so he may not really thought about the date of the stillbirth relative to her death, and how it relates to Barristan's assumptions.

It would've been the defining events of his life one might argue.

I already went over why Ned's thoughts are meaningless and not proof of anything, no matter how traumatic the event. They were totally guarded until he had a fever and started thinking of Lyanna.

For myself, I see no compelling evidence that the hints for Ned + Ashara couldn't have been misdirection from the start to cloud Jon's parentage and Brandon's connection to Ashara.

I listed plenty of it. Also clouding Brandon's connection to Ashara simply has no motive as again that's a "who gives a damn" twist that would seem to have had quite a deal of energy spent on it. Much more inefficient than Martin's standard writing.

So Tywin probably didn't think Ashara was the mother. Which doesn't prove much, but is still interesting.

Or far more likely, Martin wasn't thinking about this when he wrote Tywin's line. People are making way too much of this line. To think this line meant Tywin didn't think Ashara was Jon's mother is going well beyond the realm of reasonable speculation.

What he could have meant by this? Lying/deceiving to keep Jon's parentage secret and all it entailed. Including deceiving his wife, which burdened his marriage according to Cat and deceiving his best friend and King, which can be seen as treason. It also meant that he was thought of as a guy who betrayed his wife by all of Westeros, a dishonorable guy.

Ned clearly seemed to think these "prices" were noteworthy given the tone of the line. His marriage to Cat was just fine. There was some small price in closeness but overall they were among the happier couples we've seen in the series, so that being the only price doesn't make sense. Also it didn't affect his relationship with Robert so there's no price there at all. This is why people speculated on the price being related to Ashara. Again, it was the same type of reasoning that led people to speculate Ned respected Rhaeghar. This was even before Clash of Kings came out that people online were saying these theories - that Ned respected Rhaeghar, the price had to do with Ashara, the promise was about Jon. None was what you'd call heavily supported by anything other than subtle subtext and logical deductions. So it was a reasonable belief - even now, there isn't a satisfactory answer for what price Ned paid that was so painful as his thoughts imply.

Which lies of Ned led to Ashara's suicide?

The old notion was that showing up with Jon contributed to Ashara killing herself. As not only did the now married man she loved kill her brother, but he had fathered some bastard too.

As for why this Brandon theory exists, I would argue it exists because the text supports it more any other theory

You are confused. After reading Dance I believe Braondon+Ashara is probable. But this notion that it was Martin's original intent is horribly weak.

All these points you "address" require things to be way more complicated and kooky. Makes much more sense to believe we didn't have this crazy weird totally illogical misdirection and nonsensical character behaviors - but instead Martin changed his mind. Authors do that.

With regard to what the Daynes think, we only know what Edric and Allyria believe, and they are most likely too young to have reliable knowledge

Allyria (whose age we do not know) must have gotten that knowledge from someone else in the family then. No matter what it requires someone in the family having no clue which Stark brother her lover was. Which is conceivable but in no way is this easy to accept.

Note that Tywin doesn't seem to think that Ashara is the mother.

...you are making some hefty assumptions here.

Nor do "all nobles" seem to think it was Ashara. See Robert or Lord Borrell for other examples.

Yes this is true.

We don't know what the Reed family thinks. All we hear is that Meera mentions Ned dancing with Ashara after Brandon asked it of her.

The delivery and the pause "..." seem to imply a quiet wolf romance, but this is debatable and I could be wrong.

He was probably conceived close to half a year after Brandon's arrest.

Not true. Jon was probably conceived very early after Rhaeghar and Lyanna went off together, and Brandon obviously got arrested after this. Also Ashara was probably in King's Landing attending Elia at this time which is where Brandon would have travelled to. Now it seems odd to think they would have the opportunity to be together prior to or after Brandon's arrest, but people would probably make their own assumptions about her sneaking to him or something. Jon's age matches up with Brandon's death though. Also Ashara's stillborn child playing a role in her death implies they were together after Harrenhal, yet there doesn't seem to have been any opportunity for that to happen which we know of (as Brandon was spending time in the North and Riverlands, not King's Landing). So the whole timeline thing isn't iffy as Martin doesn't seem to have given detailed though to it. We don't really have enough to go on in terms of timelines.

Second, if he isn't Ashara's child what is Ned going to say when her relatives deny Ned's claim?

Hm? Either way he apparently is in some conspiracy with these relatives, or tricking them somehow into believing she had an affair with Ned not Brandon. Anyway he doesn't have to say who the mother is ("to protect her honor" or whatever), just say "Brandon's kid" and let people make their own assumptions. This would also draw less attention to Jon, as wild Brandon having some bastard seems less noteworthy than honorable Ned having one. On top of, again, being less of a lie than this Ned+Ashara story - a story which they now had to intentionally fabricate. It all just makes very little sense.

Brandon+Ashara just makes things very complicated with lies, fake romances with the wrong brother, hidden babies, and a suicide. If Martin had intended Brandon+Ashara from the start he could surely have come up with a more realistic and logical scenario than all these characters behaving in weird and overly complicated ways. The more you look at it, the more it reeks of him changing his mind.

As for what constitutes good writing and a compelling story, perhaps GRRM has a different idea about this than some of his readers?

Well firstly most readers will agree that the Ned/Ashara/Brandon is more emotional, there's not much question about that. Your milage can certainly vary but the consensus among his readers will be the the former tale was much more emotinally moving.

Secondly and more relevantly that has nothing to do with Martin changing his own mind. There is little reason to believe Martin intended Brandon+Ashara from the start - and plenty of reason not to believe it.

And one more thing: Even if your suggestion were possible: Eddard is all about the "the man who passes the sentence should wield the sword". If we believe that he promised to lyanna to keep jon´s secret safe, would he use his dead brothers honour to do so by telling about the - in this case, convenient - affair that one had with ashara? Or would he rather sacrifice his own personal honour by letting everyone belief he had a tryst with ashara before his marriage with catelyn which continued for a short time afterwards?

Eh. I suppose maybe, but this is a stretch. Especially since he'd be forcing Catelyn to suffer this shame as well, something she has no say in. Why preserve his dead brother's "honor" (which he's not really, I mean who is going to think negatively of Brandon because of this?) at the expense of his wife's? Who is alive and certainly does care quite a lot, she is thoroughly embarassed by this.

[Kadence]

We don't actually know who accompanied Ned to Starfall. While we know that Ned didn't bring his army with him to Dorne, it's by no means sure that he couldn't have had more men in Dorne than he took to the fight at the Tower of Joy.

We don't know who he went with but the indications are he went straight from ToJ to Starfall. If he had more men he would have brought them to the ToJ.

I still fail to see why Ned would've been safer with the Daynes if he had dishonored Ashara than if Brandon would have done it.

Well that's obvious - because Ashara might be pissed at him but isn't likely to let her family kill her former love. If he's just her former lover's brother she's much less likely to have any inclincation to protect him - or at least, Ned would be much stupider to assume she'd protect him.

And I don't think it's implausible at all that Ned would have wanted to bring back Dawn personally even when there wasn't a romance between him and Ashara. Ned clearly admired Arthur Dayne a great deal and was sad that he had to kill him.

It seems less understandable or likely. It makes much more sense if he had a relationship with Ashara, rather than him vaguely knowing her from dancing with her once the night his brother banged her. Especially since he'd have significant reasons to be worried about his safety going to Starfall after killing Arthur and fighting on the enemy side.

Even if you assume he'd be equally worried about his safety in both cases whether he'd been her lover or not (which isn't true), he'd have much clearer motive to take the risk if he and Ashara were in love. In that case he would always feel obligated to bring the sword personally. If he didn't love her it's much harder to justify the risk.

Moreover, there is also the possibility that Jon wasn't at the Tower of Joy but had been brought to Starfall, in which case Ned had to go personally, of course.

Possible but it seems pretty unlikely. It looked like Lyanna had just given birth when she died. Also if he had been brought to Starfall, the Kingsguard would have went with him. Why stay with Lyanna rather than Rhaeghar's possible heir (if they married, and since Aegon was dead)? If they married Jon was the uncrowned king so they wouldn't stay with Lyanna instead. If they didn't marry, at least one would have gone to Starfall to deliver him and protect him. Instead all three were at the ToJ.

[Tywin Bannister]

Apologies if this has been addressed, but I'll admit I haven't yet read all nine pages. Earlier in the thread someone suggested Ashara's baby may not have been stillborn, and could in fact have been the baby that Varys swapped for Aegon. They then suggested Ashara hooked up with Aegon later on and became Lemore.

Now, it might just be me, but doesn't that sound totally mental? Why on earth would she give her own baby up for potential slaughter to Varys, then become complicit in his scheme to whisk Aegon away? It just doesn't seem to make any sense at all. Surely if there was a baby swap, the Aegon that got Gregor'd would have just been some poor little blonde bugger from Flea Bottom that Varys bought for a couple of dragons, not the only child of a beautiful noblewoman.

Also this has probably been cleared up already but I saw a few people suggesting Benjen as an option for "dishonouring" Ashara. Pretty sure he's out of the game as he would have been far too young at the time.

[Markus]

The war lasted less than a year or so and Brandon was obviously killed at the very start. The timing would work fine.

While we don't know for sure which event is regarded as the start of the war, it seems more likely to have been Arryn's refusal of Aerys' orders or the fighting between Arryn and Targaryen loyalists in the Vale than Brandon being arrested in KL. This would have been a few months before the events in the Vale since Rickard had still to be summoned to KL. As the war lasted close to a year it's simply not plausible that Brandon could have fathered a child which was born close to a year after its start.

I already went over why Ned's thoughts are meaningless and not proof of anything, no matter how traumatic the event. They were totally guarded until he had a fever and started thinking of Lyanna.

Nevertheless, I don't think Ned's lack of thoughts about Ashara are meaningless. I think they're a good reason to doubt any scenario in which he and Ashara were a tragic couple. More, you're wrong that Ned didn't think about Lyanna until he became feverish. And if fever was a trigger for Ned's memories, he still didn't think about Ashara.

I listed plenty of it. Also clouding Brandon's connection to Ashara simply has no motive as again that's a "who gives a damn" twist that would seem to have had quite a deal of energy spent on it. Much more inefficient than Martin's standard writing.

None of the reasons on your list can't be seen as reasonable misdirection, though. And I'm not sure why you think that GRRM has the same ideas as you do what people are giving a damn about and what constitutes efficient writing. It seems to me that if he wanted to misdirect some readers that he was quite efficient.

Or far more likely, Martin wasn't thinking about this when he wrote Tywin's line. People are making way too much of this line. To think this line meant Tywin didn't think Ashara was Jon's mother is going well beyond the realm of reasonable speculation.

I don't find it very plausible that GRRM would let Tywin say Robb is his father's son when he married for love and not politics when Ned married not for love but for politics. If Ned deflowered Ashara and then didn't marry her he would have done the opposite of what Robb actually did. GRRM can't have "forgotten" this when he let Tywin make his remark. So it's not just reasonable speculation that Tywin didn't think Ned and Ashara were a couple but the most reasonable conclusion.

Ned clearly seemed to think these "prices" were noteworthy given the tone of the line. His marriage to Cat was just fine. There was some small price in closeness but overall they were among the happier couples we've seen in the series, so that being the only price doesn't make sense.

Burdening his marriage, in particular at the start, makes sense to me as a price Ned thinks he had to pay. YMMV.

Also it didn't affect his relationship with Robert so there's no price there at all.

Ned is forced to lie to Robert. Lie about Lyanna's feelings and lie about Jon. Ned is also hiding a potential threat to Robert and his reign. Some, like Ned perhaps, might consider this treason or at least not what a loyal friend and subject should honorably do. In any case, it's simply not correct that there is no price for Ned in this.

After reading Dance I believe Braondon+Ashara is probable. But this notion that it was Martin's original intent is horribly weak.

When it's weak primarily in the minds of those who believed in a romance between Ned and Ashara and those who feel this would've been a better story what does this tell you?

All these points you "address" require things to be way more complicated and kooky. Makes much more sense to believe we didn't have this crazy weird totally illogical misdirection and nonsensical character behaviors - but instead Martin changed his mind. Authors do that.

I would like to remind you that there always were readers who believed that Ned and Ashara as a couple at Harrenhal was somewhat problematic given Ned's character and the absence of Ashara in his thoughts. Edric Dayne's story gave the notion of Ned and Ashara as a couple support, but still failed to explain how it came about that Ashara fell in love with shy, solid, dutiful, solemn Ned and why Ned never thought of her. Still, flaws and all, there was Edric's story. Now, however, we've been given a conflicting scenario via Selmy and Lady Dustin. A scenario which makes more sense and can arguably reconcile all we know about the matter.

As to your idea that GRRM isn't revealing the truth of the matter one layer after another, using misdirection on occasion, but has actually changed his mind about it, you're welcome to it. You can't expect others to agree with it when you give the strong impression that you mainly argue out of disappointment that your preferred scenario isn't becoming true after all.

Allyria (whose age we do not know) must have gotten that knowledge from someone else in the family then. No matter what it requires someone in the family having no clue which Stark brother her lover was. Which is conceivable but in no way is this easy to accept.

It requires someone at Starfall to think Ned was Ashara's lover. It doesn't require that Allyria's source is anybody who would have had to know the truth about the matter. Servants are prone to gossip but not always well informed. If Ashara didn't reveal the identity of her lover and then committed suicide after Ned went to her after the war, possibly with "his" baby, I can well see why some servants would suspect Ned. The same servants could've been the source of Allyria's knowledge.

Jon was probably conceived very early after Rhaeghar and Lyanna went off together, and Brandon obviously got arrested after this.

Jon wasn't conceived that early. We know that Jon was born 8-9 months before Dany who was born about 9 months after fleeing to Dragonstone, shortly before the Sack of KL. So Jon was born about the time of the Sack of KL which was "close to a year" after the war started. Hence, Jon was probably conceived close to 3 months into the war. Brandon, however, was arrested a few months before the war started when the start of the war is understood to have been after his and his father's death.

Also Ashara was probably in King's Landing attending Elia at this time which is where Brandon would have travelled to.

If Ashara was pregnant she may have gone back to Starfall and may not have returned to KL after her stillbirth shortly before the war started. Which would make any it even more unlikely that she and Brandon could have been Jon's parents.

Either way he apparently is in some conspiracy with these relatives, or tricking them somehow into believing she had an affair with Ned not Brandon.

This isn't necessarily correct. When Allyria's source was gossip among servants and not her family can Ned be blamed for servants getting things wrong? Moreover, Ashara's family may not care to correct the impression of a rumored romance between Ned instead of Brandon and Ashara, but they could think very differently about Ned officially claiming that Jon is a nephew of theirs' when they know it's not true. They might then decide to deny it to Jon's detriment.

Anyway he doesn't have to say who the mother is ("to protect her honor" or whatever), just say "Brandon's kid" and let people make their own assumptions.

Sure, Ned could have claimed Jon was Brandon's. If not for Jon's age being a bit wrong. If not for Jon then not being brought up as Ned's son and the brother of Ned's children, which may have been important to Ned and/or Lyanna. Perhaps GRRM also thought this would make a better story?

Your milage can certainly vary but the consensus among his readers will be the the former tale was much more emotinally moving.

I'm sure GRRM will be sorry that some or even many readers won't appreciate Brandon moving in on Ned's crush and Ned inheriting the mess over Ned and Ashara as a couple. But I'm also sure that he won't be too sorry. "Art isn't a democracy." That's what GRRM has once said, and I think it can be applied here.

There is little reason to believe Martin intended Brandon+Ashara from the start - and plenty of reason not to believe it.

There is plenty of reason to think that GRRM wanted the reader to think of Ashara + Ned as a scenario. The evidence for it was never strong though and it's apparent why GRRM wanted the idea kept in the readers' mind, as a cover for R&L=J.

[Efilnikufesin]

Since so many people are saying that Major houses are too good to marry into Minor houses, here's a statistical breakdown of marriages/matches involving Great houses (excluding ruling house):

Great house to Great house:

Ned/Brandon Stark - Catelyn Tully

Lyanna Stark/Cersei Lannister - Robert Baratheon

Lysa Tully - Jon Arryn

Tywin Lannister - Joanne Lannister

Great house to Minor house:

Kevan Lannister - House Swyft

Genna Lannister - House Frey

Stannis Baratheon - House Florent

Garlan Tyrell - some Reach house

Doran Martell - Girl from Free Cities

Clearly we can see that the latter is not all that rare.

True, but it was mentioned that Rickard was possibly seeking alliances. So would a better alliance not be a major house that has the ability to field 20k-30k or more troops by raising their banners, rather than a house that could maybe field 500-5k troops? He had already betrothed children to Storm's End and Riverrun, both being ruling houses of their respective territories.

[Efilnikufesin]

But saying Brandon was Jon´s father wouldn´t work. The timeframe doesn´t fit, if the dates in the wiki are to be believed (don´t have the books at hand to check) According to the wiki, Jon was born too long after brandons death. So basically, Eddard would have to go round saying: Yes, well, Brandon banged Ashara. While married to Catelyn. And then I did. While married to Catelyn. Still better to keep quiet and not say anything at all, to my mind.

Just peeked at the wiki quick, says Brandon died in 282AL, Jon born 283AL, not impossibly out of the timeline at all. Also by saying nothing he is allowing the rumors that have surfaced to incriminate himself and upset his wife already. Why would he have to say that both of them slept with her? Naming Brandon as his father would also squash both the rumors of N+A that bother Catelyn as well as possibly making Catelyn more endearing to Jon than she was. She resents Jon as a symbol of Ned's infidelity.

[Markus]

We don't know who he went with but the indications are he went straight from ToJ to Starfall. If he had more men he would have brought them to the ToJ.

It's said that "they" found him with Lyanna's body. So there may have been more men even at the Tower of Joy, after the initial fight. If he had more men with him it would also better explain how he pulled down the tower to built eight graves.

Well that's obvious - because Ashara might be pissed at him but isn't likely to let her family kill her former love. If he's just her former lover's brother she's much less likely to have any inclincation to protect him - or at least, Ned would be much stupider to assume she'd protect him.

What makes you think that Ned would expect that Ashara would be able to call the shots? Fathers of despoiled girls aren't known to be too concerned about their daughters' wishes so Ned couldn't have expected a warm welcome at Starfall if he had despoiled Ashara. If it was Brandon however he had more reason not to fear for his safety. Being the mere brother of a cad is not something which would've put his life or health in danger.

It makes much more sense if he had a relationship with Ashara, rather than him vaguely knowing her from dancing with her once the night his brother banged her. Especially since he'd have significant reasons to be worried about his safety going to Starfall after killing Arthur and fighting on the enemy side.

The point is that Ned's admiration for Arthur Dayne, his possible regard for Ashara and his brother's caddish behavior would have been perfectly plausible reasons for an honorable man like Ned to return Dawn personally. I see no implausibility at all here.

Even if you assume he'd be equally worried about his safety in both cases whether he'd been her lover or not (which isn't true), ... If he didn't love her it's much harder to justify the risk.

I would like to stress the point that the man most at risk from the Daynes was the man who seduced, impregnated and then abandoned Ashara. Any male relative of her could reasonably have challenged the perpetrator of such a dishonorable behavior to a duel over it. But not the brother of such a man.

In any case, I'm not even arguing that Ned didn't have any feelings for Ashara which were a reason of why he went to Starfall. Just that he could go there with the expectation that he wouldn't been made to answer for dishonoring Ashara because he simply didn't.

Possible but it seems pretty unlikely. It looked like Lyanna had just given birth when she died.

In fact, it didn't look that way at all. It looked as if Lyanna died of puerperal fever some weeks after the birth. Which makes sense when you also consider how much time Ned would have needed to reach the ToJ and Jon being born about the time of the sack of KL or shortly after. Weeks in which the baby could've been brought elsewhere whereas Lyanna was too ill to move.

Also if he had been brought to Starfall, the Kingsguard would have went with him. Why stay with Lyanna rather than Rhaeghar's possible heir (if they married, and since Aegon was dead)? If they married Jon was the uncrowned king so they wouldn't stay with Lyanna instead. If they didn't marry, at least one would have gone to Starfall to deliver him and protect him. Instead all three were at the ToJ.

That's a strong argument. A possible rationale for all three KG staying with Lyanna could be that they were ordered to stay with her by Rhaegar or that they wanted to prevent anybody from speaking to Lyanna before she died in order to keep the birth of the baby a secret which required all three of them at the ToJ.

[Efilnikufesin]

I don't find it very plausible that GRRM would let Tywin say Robb is his father's son when he married for love and not politics when Ned married not for love but for politics. If Ned deflowered Ashara and then didn't marry her he would have done the opposite of what Robb actually did. GRRM can't have "forgotten" this when he let Tywin make his remark.

We could also take that remark as saying Ned and Robb were not very politically astute. Both making grievous mistakes that led to their demises.

[Markus]

We could also take that remark as saying Ned and Robb were not very politically astute. Both making grievous mistakes that led to their demises.

Sure, he could have. But the context in which the remark is made is very specific:

"He chose the girl's honor over his own. Once he had deflowered her, he had no other course."

"It would have been kinder to leave her with a bastard in her belly," said Tyrion bluntly. The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin, "and Robb Stark is his father's son."

The context isn't just honorable behaviour in general but choosing a girl's honor over ones own once the girl is deflowered. If Tywin would think that Ned had an affair with Ashara and didn't marry her I don't see that he would've made such a remark as he did.

[Efilnikufesin]

Sure, he could have. But the context in which the remark is made is very specific:

The context isn't just honorable behaviour in general but choosing a girl's honor over ones own once the girl is deflowered. If Tywin would think that Ned had an affair with Ashara and didn't marry her I don't see that he would've made such a remark as he did.

Just trying to possibly give another view as to why Tywin said it. Robb being honorable and marrying Jeyne, as well as Ned being honorable and attempting to bring Joffrey's parentage to light were both very bad political moves. Ned was imprisoned and eventually lost his head, and Robb's marriage to Jeyne allowed Tywin to set up the Red Wedding with the Freys.

[bowlwoman]

Not true. Jon was probably conceived very early after Rhaeghar and Lyanna went off together, and Brandon obviously got arrested after this. Also Ashara was probably in King's Landing attending Elia at this time which is where Brandon would have travelled to. Now it seems odd to think they would have the opportunity to be together prior to or after Brandon's arrest, but people would probably make their own assumptions about her sneaking to him or something. Jon's age matches up with Brandon's death though. Also Ashara's stillborn child playing a role in her death implies they were together after Harrenhal, yet there doesn't seem to have been any opportunity for that to happen which we know of (as Brandon was spending time in the North and Riverlands, not King's Landing). So the whole timeline thing isn't iffy as Martin doesn't seem to have given detailed though to it. We don't really have enough to go on in terms of timelines.

We've seen ample evidence that there are hidden corridors and secret passageways all through the Red Keep, even from the dungeons. I think it's quite plausible that Brandon and Ashara started a romance at Harrenhal, and then when Brandon came to KL and got arrested, he and Ashara figured out a way to hook up. This would put a conception date for their supposed child much closer to the beginning of the war, and the stillborn child would be born much closer to the end of the war. This would also explain why the rumors came out about Ned fathering the child, because Ashara getting pregnant in KL, sneaking around and fraternizing with the enemy wouldn't have set well with Aerys. Whether or not the baby was actually stillborn is still up for grabs.

[inkasrain]

Well, I am saying that Rickard might have dismissed her being pregnant seeing how he seemed to be set on betrothing his children to major houses. What was house Starfell in political power compared to any of the houses that once were one of the seven Kingdoms? What sort of retaliation would Starfell be able to take? What makes Ashara important enough for Rickard to betroth one of his sons too? The Riverlands are set just below the North which makes a great match for protection of the North with their combined power. What does Starfell offer them being so far south in Dorne?

First of all, it isn't as though Ned was Rickard's only chance to create marriage alliances with powerful Houses, as Brandon and Lyanna both were already betrothed to the eldest children of major (and extremely powerful) Houses. Benjen was presumably too young to be promised, but there's no reason to think he couldn't have been matched equally well. So again, while "losing" Ned to Starfall is a setback for Rickard, it hardly destroys his plans for advancing the position of his House.

And besides, if we let the parade of "if"s go by for long enough, it isn't unreasonable to think that having a Dornish connection would be a bad thing for the Starks. It isn't that wild to imagine a scenario in which a child of Ned and Ashara could be matched with a Martell, after all.

As for the political power wielded by Starfall, it's worth noting that two children of the Daynes are currently BFFs with the Crown Prince and Princess. This doesn't make House Dayne hugely influential, but between doing the honorable thing by their family and giving them the brush-off? I'd say it's a much wiser course to take the honorable route (which I think the Starks would have done anyway) and not risk insulting the people who have the ear of the future king.

A bunch of people claim the Septa Lemore can't be Ashara Dayne because she is 'not beautiful enough'.

So I'm trying to track where this whole "Ashara was GORGEOUS" vibe comes from, and thus your description was an alert for me. I'd hoped you could show me something 'new', but you seem to be saying it was more a lazy (no offense) description based on something that doesn't actually say she was extremely beautiful. I think that's exactly the sort of thing that the "it is known"-ness of Ashara being gorgeousis founded on, multiplied by romanticisation.

Yeah, no, I have no new insight into Ashara's looks. Barristan's description of her stuck with me so I went with it, but it's perfectly possible that his love enhanced her beauty in his mind.

[jxd]

We've seen ample evidence that there are hidden corridors and secret passageways all through the Red Keep, even from the dungeons. I think it's quite plausible that Brandon and Ashara started a romance at Harrenhal, and then when Brandon came to KL and got arrested, he and Ashara figured out a way to hook up. This would put a conception date for their supposed child much closer to the beginning of the war, and the stillborn child would be born much closer to the end of the war. This would also explain why the rumors came out about Ned fathering the child, because Ashara getting pregnant in KL, sneaking around and fraternizing with the enemy wouldn't have set well with Aerys. Whether or not the baby was actually stillborn is still up for grabs.

Are you saying Ashara could visit Brandon in jail via secret tunnels, but Brandon never tried to escape via the same tunnels?

[I am John Snow's father]

While I can't rule out Ned being in love with Ashara, I don't think he could have been the one to dishonor her:

“Would that we could,” Ned said, “but we have duties now, my liege … to the realm, to our children, I to my lady wife and you to your queen. We are not the boys we were.”

“You were never the boy you were,” Robert grumbled. “More’s the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard’s mother?”

“Her name was Wylla,” Ned replied with cool courtesy, “and I would sooner not speak of her.”

“Wylla. Yes.” The king grinned. “She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …”

Ned’s mouth tightened in anger. “Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men.”

“Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn.” “I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child.”

Martin, George R.R. (2003-01-01). A Game of Thrones: A Song of Ice and Fire: Book One (pp. 110-111). Bantam. Kindle Edition.

Ned knocks up Ashara, she has a still born, and Robert thinks of the one-off common girl as opposed to Ned and Ashara hooking up? I just don't see it. Love, maybe. Relationship, no.

[Markus]

Ned knocks up Ashara, she has a still born, and Robert thinks of the one-off common girl as opposed to Ned and Ashara hooking up? I just don't see it. Love, maybe. Relationship, no.

Good point. And Robert was at Harrenhal so that he would've been in a better position to know what happened there than Cat, Cersei or Edric and probably Allyria Dayne.

[Maysek22]

I've never read much forum gossip about this issue over the past 10 years or so of following this series, so until very recently (5 minutes ago) my book inspired opinion of this topic was thus: Ned was in love with Ashara, they hooked up, war broke out, brandon died, ned was called to do his duty and become betrothed to cat in his place (strengthening the stark/tully alliance), stuff happens, ned/howland kill arthur, ned goes to starfall with jon/arthurs bones/sword, tells ashara he must do his duty and that they're over, despite her being pregnant with neds baby, baby doesnt make it, she kills herself in grief over all these things. Theres a lot of speculation on neds relationship with ashara in winterfell and amongst neds bannermen (harwin assumed arya would know the story). Its possible they have it all wrong, but unlikely imho. The evidence i've read thus far in favour of Brandon being the stark with ashara is tenuous at best and bears little proof in the pages of the books themselves. Unless there is more definative proof i've yet to hear, which is very possible as i've just now read about this brandon theory...