[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[Wouter]

I'm pretty sure he vowed that he himself will not raise arms against Starks or Tullys, he has been marching around scaring people into submission. A loophole. His past is definitely checkered, but he's been summarily cowed (cuckolded and maimed) and on my disdain/appreciation scale, he's been brought to neutral.

You think Stoneheart will accept a "loophole"? That she will consider his threats to Edmure and his bannerman harmless? That she will approve him taking her fathers castle and giving it to a Frey and his Lannister kin, while he was supposed to bring her back her daughters (which he isn't even looking for)? That she will forget his "regards" for Robb (she doesn't know he didn't mean it that way, but that's Roose's fault)?

And should she accept such a "loophole"? You say he hasn't raised arms against the Tullys, but as I see it he raised an entire army against them (with lots of arms included), is simultaneously waging a war against the BWB (he is hanging outlaws and he doesn't care which group they are) and he is very much fighting the war for his family (and thus a sworn enemy of Catelyn Tully).

Basically, he has played Catelyn Tully for a fool with his empty promises and Stoneheart isn't like to forgive that, nor should she really.

[Fearsome Fred]

You do realise that there is no such thing as true heroes of this story, right?

Umm, yes. I have heard that boring piece of "wisdom" by GRRM's evil minions a million times before. No, I do not necessarily agree. If I did agree, I would lose interest. I am not interested in a series whose only agenda is to deconstruct Good by reveling in Evil.

Expecting this non-entity to prevail above all evil is only going to give you an ulcer.

Who are you talking about? I never said anything about any particular character.

I am curious as to why people keep expecting Jaime to die.

I don't expect him to die. I expect he is already dead. We have already seen his last POV.

The point is, we have by now been introduced to such a number of people who are so much worse, that Jaime´s doings pale in comparison.

We will see more of that when Un-Jaime shows up.

Hell, even Tyrion has killed more frequently and more viciously then him.

Shrug. Tyrion is also a villain. In my book anyway.

[Matarreyes]

1) I don't agree Jaime is now not even a grey character. Even his recent actions at Riverrun are a darker shade of grey, considering his methods (some of those threats were bloodchilling).

2) Dany may forgive him for killing her father, but he also completely failed to protect Rhaegar's kids and she may still hold that against him. Especially as his father's men wouldn't have touched them if he had protected them, and he only need to hold out against his fathers demands until Ned Stark showed up to take the children and Elia in (protective) custody.

1) "Darker" or "lighter" grey is rather irrelevant, though. I was wondering about the fact that Jaime seems to eternally graw the "will die for his sins" card against a host of much more evil blackishly black characters, which surprises me. As for his threats, remember Tyrion promising to rape Tommen in order to keep Cersei in check? His own nephew. Huh.

2) I find it interesting that in Barristan POV in Dance we are given a snippet about who the Kingsguard must protect. And it´s the King and whoever the King chooses to grant its protection. Some Kings would extend their protection to other family members, some won´t. It´s clear to me that during the Rebellion, the protection was granted to Rhaegar (3 KG), Lyanna (3 KG) and Aerys himself (Jaime). Therefore, it was never Jaime´s formal duty as a KG to protect Elia and her children. He cannot be faulted for her death/rape any more than he can be faulted for the deaths/rapes of the rest of Red Keep women.

[Wouter]

As for his threats, remember Tyrion promising to rape Tommen in order to keep Cersei in check? His own nephew. Huh.

Cersei didn't appreciate nor forgive that threat either, just like Catelyn won't. The whole idea of those threats is that the people threatened think Tyrion/Jaime are indeed willing to do what they said they would, and both Cersei and Edmure believed it. And in Jaime's case, I'm not entirely certain even from his own POV if he would have done it or not if Edmure had refused him. I think he was bluffing, but he was sure doing a fine job of it and I can't say for sure. Stoneheart and Edmure won't believe he was bluffing; his reputation is why the threat worked and his reputation is why they won't believe it was a bluff.

2) I find it interesting that in Barristan POV in Dance we are given a snippet about who the Kingsguard must protect. And it´s the King and whoever the King chooses to grant its protection. Some Kings would extend their protection to other family members, some won´t. It´s clear to me that during the Rebellion, the protection was granted to Rhaegar (3 KG), Lyanna (3 KG) and Aerys himself (Jaime). Therefore, it was never Jaime´s formal duty as a KG to protect Elia and her children. He cannot be faulted for her death/rape any more than he can be faulted for the deaths/rapes of the rest of Red Keep women.

Jaime does fault himself - in his dream about the caverns under Casterly Rock, he sees Rhaegar riding up and reproach him for failing to protect his children "I left them in your protection ser", Rhaegar said in his dream. Moreover, they clearly were supposed to protect Rhaella as well, as per the discussion Jaime and Hightower has when Aerys was raping her. And it was again Jaime who wanted to protect her, from the king, while Hightower said yes we have to protect her but not from him.

It was also the least he could do to compensate for what he did with the king, even if that was needed, to not make a total mockery of his vows. He could at least say he protected Aerys from his own misdeeds and from being taken alive, if he has protected Rhaegar's children.

[Matarreyes]

stuff

RE: Tyrion/Tommen and Jaime/baby. You are arguing exactly the same thing I am arguing. That Tyrion and Jaime acted very similarly. Now can you please explain to me why Jaime is more deserving of death then Tyrion (or a number of other similarly grey characters). Which is the original topic of this conversation.

RE: Jaime/Elia. I am arguing the factual obligation of Jaime´s job as a KG, which did not seem to include anyone but Aerys. This is not the same as a moral need to protect the weak. Of course Jaime feels guilty for not helping her (and 100+ other women that were surely killed that day in Kings Landing). The "protect Elia from Gregor", "protect Rhaella from rape" and "protect any maiden from anyone" is what any knight should do. At the time of the Sack, it wasn´t Jaime´s job as a KG to look after Elia, though. In that light, I don´t think he should be faulted for not running around the Red Keep trying to prevent something he didn´t know was even happening.

I agree that it will not matter to Dany or anyone else, and it does seem to matter to Jaime himself since he clearly feels guilty. All I am saying is that from reading Barristan´s POV one can conclude that Elia and her children were not under his formal protection at the time of their death.

Note: I would prefer to hear your answer to the first topic, really. I keep asking this simple question, and all I am getting are examples of Jaime´s wrongdoing. Which I am perfectly aware of, thank you very much :). What I really want to know what sets him out from a very large number of quite similar sometimes evil-sometimes awesome characters that aren´t expected to die at every step, as Jaime seems to be. I am geniuinely curious.

[jofo]

I see no evidence that Jaime's evil is "in the past". He seems to me to be the same person he always was - a fellow who would like to play the hero if he can, but who always be a villain if given a strong enough motive.

He was planning on announcing that Tommen and Myrcella were his bastards when he returned to KL.

I think that is a pretty big change.

As soon as he thought that, though, I suspected he wouldn't get back to KL anytime soon. Reintroducing Brienne to keep him away was as good a plot device as any.

[Alexia]

RE: Jaime/Elia. I am arguing the factual obligation of Jaime´s job as a KG, which did not seem to include anyone but Aerys.

Matarreyes, you cannot be genuinely arguing this, can you? Aegon is heir to the throne after Aerys! And you think that Rhaegar is such a POS that he would not leave his wife, a Crown Princess, and his children (including an heir-in-waiting) a KG? I mean, I think poorly of Rhaegar after the whole mess with Lyanna but even I could never think that the one KG left in her vicinity was not instructed to guard her and her two children, even if the king was his primary responsibility.

[Fearsome Fred]

He was planning on announcing that Tommen and Myrcella were his bastards when he returned to KL.

I think that is a pretty big change.

That's great! Lets hope some seven-year old boy does not get in the way of his plans. He might have to push him out a tall window.

But it is nice to know that Jaime now has different goals that he is willing to murder random people for.

[Fearsome Fred]

Now can you please explain to me why Jaime is more deserving of death then Tyrion (or a number of other similarly grey characters). Which is the original topic of this conversation.

Who cares? They both are villains. Comparing them to cartoon villains, or pure demons, or to each other, is a waste of mental energy.

Note: I would prefer to hear your answer to the first topic, really. I keep asking this simple question, and all I am getting are examples of Jaime´s wrongdoing. Which I am perfectly aware of, thank you very much :). What I really want to know what sets him out from a very large number of quite similar sometimes evil-sometimes awesome characters that aren´t expected to die at every step, as Jaime seems to be. I am geniuinely curious.

Because the last we heard from Jaime is that he had been lured into a trap. And he has not been heard from since.

[Matarreyes]

Matarreyes, you cannot be genuinely arguing this, can you? Aegon is heir to the throne after Aerys! And you think that Rhaegar is such a POS that he would not leave his wife, a Crown Princess, and his children (including an heir-in-waiting) a KG? I mean, I think poorly of Rhaegar after the whole mess with Lyanna but even I could never think that the one KG left in her vicinity was not instructed to guard her and her two children, even if the king was his primary responsibility.

Why, yes, I do.

First of all, I must say that I really don´t buy the romanticised, noble image of Rhaegar. This is a guy who knew firsthand of his father´s madness and was only vaguely thinking about planning a coup, knew firsthand that Aerys was raping his mother and did nothing, run off with another woman disregarding Elia and probably making her the laughing stock of the realm, started a war by taking Lyanna from home and then proceeded to try to smash Lyanna´s family by force. Those examples show clearly enough what Rhaegar was all about.

Secondly, whatever Rhaegar wanted, by the time Aerys was surrounded in the Red Keep and Jaime had to guard or not guard Elia/Aegon, Rhaegar was dead. Aerys was the one to decide who guarded whom, and I do not think he cared about his heir Aegon all that much given his intentions to burn the entire city, Aegon logically included. Jaime´s POV shows that he was tasked with guarding the King and defending the Red Keep. Being the only KG, any on these 2 tasks would be enough to occupy him 24/7. It would be impossible for him to guard 2 different households and defend the Keep. Moreover, why would Aerys in his ultimate burn-them-all madness order him to?

[Daemrion]

We will see more of that when Un-Jaime shows up.

No! A million times no! We do not need even more 'un-' characters popping up. That plot device is starting to get worn out and overused in ASOIAF.

Wouter,

Lord Tarly is an invader in the Riverlands who is hanging people left and right. If he defeats the BwB, a lot of good people will die, including Thoros and Gendry, and I also fear for the orphans of the inn of the crossroads.

No, the BWB still is one of the more sympathetic groups in the books, in spite of them getting darker and never having been totally white to start with. At least they do fight for the commoners. I also think they will strike Riverrun and be succesful there.

Actually, by carrying on their guerilla war the BwB are preventing peace from coming. Jaime's effectively put an end to the war in the Riverlands by negotiating the peace at Raventree. The war between Stark and the Lannister/Tyrell alliance is over and more fighting will just prolong the suffering, waste time to grow crops and sap valuable resources.

After what the BwB tried to do to Pod and Brienne and Hyle, I hope that they get wiped out especially UnCat's band.

I don't agree Jaime is now not even a grey character. Even his recent actions at Riverrun are a darker shade of grey, considering his methods (some of those threats were bloodchilling) and the fact he is still waging war against the Tullys in spite of his promise. Jaime is not Ramsay or Euron or Gregor and I don't think he is to die in this cliffhanger - but I doubt he is meant to survive the last book though. A redemptive dead is what I think is in store for him in the end.

Legally I'd argue that the KG oath and orders from the Crown must trump the personal oath he made to Cat. Cersei (being the instrument of the Crown) directly ordered Jaime to go take Riverrun, technically speaking, he can't refuse that order. Of course, that's pure legality.

However, I don't think he'll survive the last book either, though I wish it were so, he's probably down to die in Dany's invasion. Maybe he'll be a tragic anti-hero (if you can get such a thing)

[Wouter]

RE: Tyrion/Tommen and Jaime/baby. You are arguing exactly the same thing I am arguing. That Tyrion and Jaime acted very similarly. Now can you please explain to me why Jaime is more deserving of death then Tyrion (or a number of other similarly grey characters). Which is the original topic of this conversation.

Jaime and Tyrion have similarities but also differences. In AGOT and ACOK, Jaime is one arrogant bugger who tramples anybody who gets underfoot under his hooves, so to speak. Tyrion has arrogance as well, but he also takes pity on others and sometimes helps them, as he did with Jon, Bran and to a lesser extent Sansa. If he is a villain, it is only because he fought for the wrong guys from late AGOT till late ASOS - he did some questionable actions but his motivations were always understandable, and none of his victims (but Sansa, regarding her forced marriage) are innocent, exactly.

Jaime does commit some serious crimes during the books, most notably the pushing of Bran (Jaime crippled the boy, Tyrion helped him ride again!) and the murder of Jory Cassel and a couple of Stark guards. The last especially was a real villains action IMO - I don't accept the argument "it's because he loved Tyrion". Tyrion didn't have Sansa beaten bloody "because he loved Jaime", either. Jaime wanted to find Arya in AGOT to cut off her hand or kill her, as he later admitted in his POV. Jaime willingly served in the same forces as Gregor Clegane and the Bloody Muumers did, and didn't have any problems with that - prior to getting to know the mummers better - allthough he knew who killed Rhaegar's kids (the ones he failed to protect - and he rides to war against the Riverlands beside Gregor and Lorch). Jaime is also one of the people most responsible for the war, and he knowingly helped Cersei commit a coup on the kingdom and supported her every step of the way. And Jaime doesn't keep his promise to Catelyn about not taking arms against the Tullys, either - he effectively says "some oaths are more important than others" and decides his oath to Catelyn is just so much wind compared to his oaths as KG commander and compared to his family. Fine enough, but then don't complain if Catelyn Tully repays in kind if she gets the chance.

First of all, I must say that I really don´t buy the romanticised, noble image of Rhaegar. This is a guy who knew firsthand of his father´s madness and was only vaguely thinking about planning a coup, knew firsthand that Aerys was raping his mother and did nothing,

Do we know that last one?

Actually, by carrying on their guerilla war the BwB are preventing peace from coming. Jaime's effectively put an end to the war in the Riverlands by negotiating the peace at Raventree. The war between Stark and the Lannister/Tyrell alliance is over and more fighting will just prolong the suffering, waste time to grow crops and sap valuable resources.

After what the BwB tried to do to Pod and Brienne and Hyle, I hope that they get wiped out especially UnCat's band.

You do realise Tarly and Jaime himself are unceremoniously hanging outlaws themselves, right? Some complain people don't treat Tyrion and Jaime the same way, but here you want to give Jaime a pass for hanging random outlaws but the BWB needs to be destroyed becaused they threatened to hang some named characters (and didn't even go through with it, AFAIK)? What about the orphans, do they need to die along with the BWB?

Jaime put an end to the war - by installing the Freys and Lannisters and their toadies as the bosses in the River Lands, and those are the very people who brought ruin and dead to the land. Is the BWB supposed to be grateful for that? Do you expect Catelyn to thank Jaime for taking her ancestral home and give it to a Frey (a particularly annoying one, at that) and a Lannister? For reducing Edmure to a permanent Lannister prisoner, and for all the threats he made?

And it's not like the BWB could stop fighting, Jaime and Tarly want Dondarrion taken for public execution in KL, and his band destroyed. And remnants of the Bloody Mummers and co are still roaming about. I don't expect such lords as Emmon Frey to care about feeding the smallfolk, either. WWhile Jaime and Kevan do have sufficient brains to care about that - after they get to control the castles and the lands - they are way too late for that. Winter has arrived.

Since Riverrun has nicely filled stores, a relatively light garrison and a BWB spy inside, I expect the BWB to take it (at least for a while, and maybe longer if Aegon starts making headway and KL has other worries). And I will be cheering them if and when they do.

[Fearsome Fred]

No! A million times no! We do not need even more 'un-' characters popping up. That plot device is starting to get worn out and overused in ASOIAF.

You may get your wish. aDwD may be the last.

But you call it a "plot device" as though it has served some purpose. But I do not see that un-Cat, or Un-Gregor have served any purpose yet. The only excuse for it is that it is leading somewhere. And I think it is leading to more Shadow-zombies of R'hllor.

I think this was foreshadowed with the "Ghost Grass" from Asshai:

"It murders other grasses and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that some day ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."

And is not Jaime, like Un-Gregor, also a patient of Qyburn?

[A Maidens Fantasy]

If the BWB captures Jaime they would hang him. They would hang anyone even remotely connected to the Lannister, Freys etc. reguardless of innocence or guilty. The crime for which lady stoneheart wants Jaime is not keeping up his end of the bargain and releasing her daughters for which Jaime cannot be blamed because they were both gone by the time he reached Kings Landing. But of course Ladystone heart has way of knowing the truth of this and cares nothing about actual guilt or innocence all she wants is venegence. It was probably her people who murdered Big Walder in Winterfell. (or was it Little Walder?)

It is highly unlikely that any of Stonehearts people are in Winterfell, how would they have gotten past the Neck and Moat Cailin?

[Ser Pistus]

Shrug. Tyrion is also a villain. In my book anyway.

I hope you at least realize that you belong to a tiny-tiny minority.

[Daemrion]

You do realise Tarly and Jaime himself are unceremoniously hanging outlaws themselves, right? Some complain people don't treat Tyrion and Jaime the same way, but here you want to give Jaime a pass for hanging random outlaws but the BWB needs to be destroyed becaused they threatened to hang some named characters (and didn't even go through with it, AFAIK)? What about the orphans, do they need to die along with the BWB?

I just think that we've got to think of more than just a certain group of people with vested interests. The realm as a whole IMHO, is better served right now by peace not war.

Furthermore, as you stated Jaime hung outlaws. Brienne as far as I know, isn't an outlaw and is on a noble quest to save Sansa Stark. Hanging her falls within the moral bad.

As for the orphans, they are orphans, they aren't outlaws. Who says that they will be hanged?

Jaime put an end to the war - by installing the Freys and Lannisters and their toadies as the bosses in the River Lands, and those are the very people who brought ruin and dead to the land. Is the BWB supposed to be grateful for that? Do you expect Catelyn to thank Jaime for taking her ancestral home and give it to a Frey (a particularly annoying one, at that) and a Lannister? For reducing Edmure to a permanent Lannister prisoner, and for all the threats he made?

And it's not like the BWB could stop fighting, Jaime and Tarly want Dondarrion taken for public execution in KL, and his band destroyed. And remnants of the Bloody Mummers and co are still roaming about. I don't expect such lords as Emmon Frey to care about feeding the smallfolk, either. WWhile Jaime and Kevan do have sufficient brains to care about that - after they get to control the castles and the lands - they are way too late for that. Winter has arrived.

Since Riverrun has nicely filled stores, a relatively light garrison and a BWB spy inside, I expect the BWB to take it (at least for a while, and maybe longer if Aegon starts making headway and KL has other worries). And I will be cheering them if and when they do.

How do Tarly and Jaime know who's in the BwB besides Dondarrion, Thoros, and Stoneheart?

Yes, the remnants of other outlaw bands are still roaming, but that too needs to be cleaned up. But getting back to the original point, I really don't see the point of having the BwB around any longer when all they are doing is creating havoc, and preventing peace.

And anyway, I'd much rather reading more about Genna Lannister then UnCat. :P

[Wouter]

I just think that we've got to think of more than just a certain group of people with vested interests. The realm as a whole IMHO, is better served right now by peace not war.

And Jaime doesn't have vested interests in his kind of peace? If he went to Brynden and said to him: "I'll order my men to withdraw, I'll give you back Edmure and I'm going to look for Sansa and return her to you as well, if I find her", he would have had peace as well. Jaime's peace serves KL, serves Cersei.

Furthermore, as you stated Jaime hung outlaws. Brienne as far as I know, isn't an outlaw and is on a noble quest to save Sansa Stark. Hanging her falls within the moral bad.

The BWB and the Lannister/Frey/Tarly alliance are at war in the Riverlands. The KL alliance hangs any member of the BWB they can get their hands on, the BWB returns the favour in kind.

We know what Brienne wanted to do, and we know she claimed this to the BWB. What we need to keep in mind, is that Harwin and Thoros and Stoneheart and co aren't reading the books and they don't know everything. What they do know, is that Brienne has fallen in love with their sworn enemy Jaime (she admitted as much), that she carries a very expensive Lannister sword, that she has a paper from Tommen that tells KL forces to obey her and that she is looking for Sansa in company of a Lannister squire and a knight from Tarly. Moreover, she refuses when given the chance to prove her loyalty by attempting to find and kill Jaime. It's not looking for her, seen from the perspective of Thoros and co she has simply switched loyalty from Catelyn to Jaime and thus she is a turncloak like Theon is. If she is looking for Sansa, then the logical reason for that is to find her for Jaime and Cersei to torture and kill. After all, that is what the BWB would expect the Lannisters to want to do and they have good reason to believe Brienne a Lannister follower, now.

As for the orphans, they are orphans, they aren't outlaws. Who says that they will be hanged?

The orphans are in league with the BWB; all the (young) adults around them, like Jeyne Heddle and Gendry, are outright part of the BWB and they depend on the outlaws for food and protection. If Jaime is going to hang the lot of them as you want, that means Gendry and Jeyne too, at the least.

[Faint]

@Wouter

We seem to be on similar wavelengths about Jaime but my question to you is this: What do you think will happen?

The only plausible idea that makes sense to me is that Catelyn orders Jaime to find Sansa (and perhaps Arya as well) while she holds Brienne hostage. Theoretically, she probably deserves to simply kill him at this point but that wouldn't make much sense story-wise and interferes with too many ongoing plots.

[Wouter]

@Wouter

We seem to be on similar wavelengths about Jaime but my question to you is this: What do you think will happen?

The only plausible idea that makes sense to me is that Catelyn orders Jaime to find Sansa (and perhaps Arya as well) while she holds Brienne hostage. Theoretically, she probably deserves to simply kill him at this point but that wouldn't make much sense story-wise and interferes with too many ongoing plots.

One would expect Catelyn to have him killed swiftly and unceremoniously - but I agree that Jaime can't die just yet (not permanently, at least). Jaime likely still has a part to play relative to Cersei and it just does not seem right if he never meets Tyrion again, nor faces Daenerys at some point. And there is UnGregor to consider, and his pledge to return Catelyn's daughters. Somehow he will get out of this situation, but I don't quite see how that will be.

That she will hold Brienne hostage and let him look for Sansa may be a good idea, but wouldn't the other way round be more reasonable from Catelyn's POV, if she doesn't actually has him killed outright? Especially considering how Sansa would react if she became aware Jaime Lannister was approaching her?

Maybe Thoros will see something in his flames that makes the BWB reconsider. Maybe they kill him, but he gets the kiss of fire and rises again. Maybe they hope to make use of him to free Edmure and Jeyne and Roslin, or to retake Riverrun (again with the idea of Brienne as a hostage). We know Jaime goes missing after he leaves with Brienne. I hope Martin will resolve this with a sample chapter or a reading, well before TWOW comes out.

[taisie22]

One would expect Catelyn to have him killed swiftly and unceremoniously - but I agree that Jaime can't die just yet (not permanently, at least). Jaime likely still has a part to play relative to Cersei and it just does not seem right if he never meets Tyrion again, nor faces Daenerys at some point. And there is UnGregor to consider, and his pledge to return Catelyn's daughters. Somehow he will get out of this situation, but I don't quite see how that will be.

That she will hold Brienne hostage and let him look for Sansa may be a good idea, but wouldn't the other way round be more reasonable from Catelyn's POV, if she doesn't actually has him killed outright? Especially considering how Sansa would react if she became aware Jaime Lannister was approaching her?

Maybe Thoros will see something in his flames that makes the BWB reconsider. Maybe they kill him, but he gets the kiss of fire and rises again. Maybe they hope to make use of him to free Edmure and Jeyne and Roslin, or to retake Riverrun (again with the idea of Brienne as a hostage). We know Jaime goes missing after he leaves with Brienne. I hope Martin will resolve this with a sample chapter or a reading, well before TWOW comes out.

I pretty much agree with what you've said above. But is it possible that UnCat doesn't even know that Brienne went to get Jaime. Perhaps she tasked Brienne with something (finding girls again or something that has to do with the "word" Brienne shouted) by holding Pod and Brienne decided on her own to get Jaime to help her. Brienne is in love with Jaime and I can't believe that she would betray him by taking him back to UnCat knowing that he will be immediately killed. Maybe if she can perform the "unknown" task for UnCat, she can go back and get Pod, leaving Jaime to go back to KL.

Any theories on what the task might be? I know a lot of people think Brienne's word had something to do with the sword or ice, but I'm not sure why that wouldn't infuriate UnCat even more, knowing that her husband's sword was melted down and reused by the Lannisters. I think Brienne has pretty much run out of ideas as to where the girls are.