[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[ARYa_Nym]

Am I the only one who thinks Jaime needs to be truly and thoroughly hanged? Because that is my fervent wish I know it will not happen.

Because this, where no one gets to where they are going, and nothing happens the way it's supposed. GRRM has written Jaime out of trouble before, I'm sure he'll do it again.

I hate him too.

I think he will die eventually though because both him and Cersei said that they would leave the world together.

[Fearsome Fred]

I know pushing Bran was unforgivable, I know he should pay, but I just can't help being for him. I think he's undergone a change and is no longer the same person as he was. His evil was in the past, it won't be repeated, and no good (other than vengeance) would come of hanging him.

I see no evidence that Jaime's evil is "in the past". He seems to me to be the same person he always was - a fellow who would like to play the hero if he can, but who always be a villain if given a strong enough motive.

Whether any good (other than vengeance) can come from hanging him, is another issue. Depending on circumstances, justice and vengeance can be at odds. For instance, I would say that Catelyn made the wrong moral choice when she arrested Tyrion at the crossroads back in aGoT.

But whether UnCat (or UnBrienne) ought to kill Jaime is for me a non-question. UnCat (or UnBrienne) is not a person, but a monster and a demon. Debating what she "ought to do", in a moral sense, is pointless.

What I would like to see is UnBrienne and/or Uncat will kill Jaime, who will then become Un-Jaime. Then I'd like to see the lot destroyed by the true heroes of the story (whoever those might be).

[spf99]

So far as Bran's dream goes. When it says "Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

The Mountain always loomed over the hound, so that explanation is straight forward enough.

Wouldn't the Mountain reanimated corpse qualify as looming over Jaime, as Cersei has effectively replaced Jaime with him as her champion?

[Daemrion]

I think Brynden Tully will make some appearance in this story arc.

[Misanthrope]

It seems to me that Lady Stoneheart is allowing Brienne to prove her loyalty by sending her off to collect Jaime for hanging. If this is true, it seems very un-Brienne-like to allow Jaime to be killed, since she knows he has tried to keep to his promises to Catelyn as best he could. Is there any other possible reason she could be getting Jaime? What would Catelyn want with him other than to kill him?

Brienne will lead Jaime to Uncat who will sentence him to hang, Jaime will shout "a word" that gives her pause. The meaning of this cliffhanger ending to the novel will be debated on these forums for another 6 years before aDoS is released. :lmao:

[Ser Pistus]

Why didn't Tom O Seven turn Jamie over to the Beric Dondarrion or at least transit a dagger through his eye when they were standing on the battlements of Riverrunn at the end of FFC?

A dagger? As far as I know, Tom is a singer, not a ninja.

And what does "turn Jamie over to the Beric Dondarrion" mean?

[Misanthrope]

I hate him too.

I think he will die eventually though because both him and Cersei said that they would leave the world together.

I hate him as well but he won't die. Death is a fate which apparently only Starks are qualified for. :bang:

[Wouter]

I actually think Lady Stoneheart isn't near as bad as she is being made out in this thread. The BWB really isn't all that much harder then they used to be under Beric - Dondarrion also had people executed, remember (and kept Arya for ransom, understandable but not terribly nice to Arya)? And in so far as they are harder, it's not just Stoneheart - Harwin and Lem and even Thoros have hardened their stance as well. Thoros explains it in Brienne's last chapter, where he says that now the BWB, the king's men, are being hunted and hanged themselves as outlaws. Lord Tarly does this to them, and in AFFC we also see Jaime himself hanging (unspecified) outlaws without a second thought - I don't think those got even a perfunctory trial.

Brienne did get a trial; she was given the chance to defend herself and explain the circumstancial evidence against her (the sword, the paper from Tommen, the company of Lannister and Tarly men Pod and Hyle), but "I love Jaime" understandably didn't go down terribly well with Jaime's sworn enemy (and you can't say Catelyn has no cause for that - he just added to his list of misdeeds by taking Riverrun from her family and threatening Edmure and his child in that chilling way). And even when the trial went against her, she was given a chance to prove her loyalty - one she took in the end, it seems, to save Pod. Dondarrion would not have hanged Pod I suppose, but other than that I think he would have done the same. Thoros didn't seem to really object either. Can't say Jaime doesn't really deserve to be hanged, either.

The Freys she hanged all seemed to have deserved their fate, too. It's not like they haven't provoked her bigtime, and it's not Olyvar or Roslin she had hanged.

Jaime looks like a dead man, but still I expect GRRM to get him out of it, because indeed his story seems unfinished and this kind of cliffhangers is usually fake. Maybe he will be hanged and Thoros revives him, or maybe he will see something in the flames and convince Stoneheart he will be needed to protect Sansa (or something).

[Podrick + Arya = Win]

It'd probably interfere too much with their likely plan of taking back Riverrun from the Freys. Assassinating Jaime Lannister would bring too much wrath on them too soon and would screw up their infiltrations.

No, Jaime has begun to develop plot armour. The guy is virtually indispensable for some reason. For a prophecy, dream or whatever.

[Black Crow]

No, Jaime has begun to develop plot armour. The guy is virtually indispensable for some reason. For a prophecy, dream or whatever.

He's going to kill Cersei?

[BastardSon]

Berric didn't seem like a demon so why should Lady Stoneheart or un-Breinne. Lady Stoneheart could easily be a vengeful angry beast considering what happened to her, but from what we know about her she would do anything for the chance to save one of her children or for vengeance if she can't achieve that. Whether they have a soul or not is debatable, I personally think so from what we see from Berric, but at the least they carry on with whatever purpose they had before.

[BastardSon]

Jamie is definitely not dead yet but he will probably die either in the next book or the last.

[mnemosyne]

I actually think Lady Stoneheart isn't near as bad as she is being made out in this thread. The BWB really isn't all that much harder then they used to be under Beric - Dondarrion also had people executed, remember (and kept Arya for ransom, understandable but not terribly nice to Arya)? And in so far as they are harder, it's not just Stoneheart - Harwin and Lem and even Thoros have hardened their stance as well. Thoros explains it in Brienne's last chapter, where he says that now the BWB, the king's men, are being hunted and hanged themselves as outlaws. Lord Tarly does this to them, and in AFFC we also see Jaime himself hanging (unspecified) outlaws without a second thought - I don't think those got even a perfunctory trial.

Completely agree. Much is made of Thoros' comment that they used to believe in justice on some level, but I think that the degeneration of BwB from somewhat merry outlaws leading the Mountain on an ongoing chase to increasingly hardened outlaws is fallout from the Red Wedding, from the brutalization of war, rather than a specific direction arising from Lady Stoneheart's resurrection.

After all, under Beric they believed - on some level - that the war wound end and the King would heal the wounds. Instead, the winners (Tywin Lannister, et al) are just inflicting more wounds, making mockery of the very idea of the King's Justice. And they have direct survivors of the Red Wedding in their group - not just Lady Stoneheart, but men who were trapped in the burning tents. Moreover, some of their supporters in the Riverlands probably had friends/relatives at the Red Wedding.

And otherwise, the stress and constant exposure to war/danger certain takes its toll on them individually.

But even considering that, the BwB is still supporting/protecting an Inn full of orphans at the cross-roads, and looking not just to hang Freys, but also to bring the outlaws who sacked Saltpans to some sort of justice. Presumeably, before the War of the Five Kings ended, Beric et al believed that they would be able to go back to some sort of peace in the aftermath.

[ultima]

Can you name anyone more innocent then Podrick Payne? Cast off by his family he is forced to become the Imps Squire, who then leaves him. Nothing more then a boy caught up in the big ugly mess and was about to die for it. He was being hung, same as Brienne, and because Bre choose not to kill Jamie.

Jamie on the other hand...well call him what you will be it noble vile heroic or misunderstood 'Innocent' is not a word anyone can attach to Jamie Lannister. His first act in the series is throwing Bran out a window. He then procedes to slaughter how many Stark guardsmen, including the Noble Jory for a crime none of them commitied. Even if you say he has redeamed himself he is still not innocent of his past crimes.

When it comes down to it the Noble Brienne, caught between her oath to lady Stark, the lives of Podrick Payne and Ser Hyle Hunt, and the Death of the the Kingslayer. To say that killing jamie is against Brienne's honour is simply not true. In the situation it is the only thing she can do that would be IN character.

that being said I don't think she will go through with it, or she has some plan. But it's clear even if she did it would not be a break of characterization.

I agree that Jamie is more a hateable character, but still i dont think GRRM will end Jamie's life like this. I think Jamie will have major role still to play. But still can anyone guess as to what Brienne might might have screamed? Why GRRM keeping that secret! :wideeyed:

[ultima]

Jaime's decision to go alone with Brienne is beyond stupid...what is he hoping to accomplish ? Sandor Clegane is one of the most vicious fighters in Westeros while Jaime hasn't improved at all with his left hand...is he trying to pull a Tyrion and hoping to sweet-talk the Hound? I really hope that Jaime saw trough Brienne's lies and is planning something epic.

Yeah, i too agree! Jamie seem to be one who is more a cunning character. GRRM has messed this one. But it happens. He has written always as Jamie questioning everything and not much caring too. Suddenly that has changed? May be there is more to it, and GRRM has kept that for next book.

[iamthedave]

Brienne will lead Jaime to Uncat who will sentence him to hang, Jaime will shout "a word" that gives her pause. The meaning of this cliffhanger ending to the novel will be debated on these forums for another 6 years before aDoS is released. :lmao:

And the word will be 'Saphthireth'

[Matarreyes]

What I would like to see is UnBrienne and/or Uncat will kill Jaime, who will then become Un-Jaime. Then I'd like to see the lot destroyed by the true heroes of the story (whoever those might be).

You do realise that there is no such thing as true heroes of this story, right? Expecting this non-entity to prevail above all evil is only going to give you an ulcer.

I am curious as to why people keep expecting Jaime to die. It was perfectly understandable in books 1-3, maybe 4, but by now his status of "The Bad Guy" has shifted so much that any expectation of karmic justice for him is very naive. And I am not meaning to discuss whether Jaime is a better person now then he was in AGOT (he is, IMO, but that´s beyond the point). The point is, we have by now been introduced to such a number of people who are so much worse, that Jaime´s doings pale in comparison. Shrug. He is not even a morally grey character anymore, he´s more to the whiter side because the truly grey-black portion is swarming with Boltons, Freys, Gregors and Eurons of the story. Hell, even Tyrion has killed more frequently and more viciously then him.

Incidentally, how many people still expect Theon to bite the dust, and how many think his karmic justice was fulfilled by his Ramsay treatment?

[Daemrion]

Jaime has to survive so that Dany is the one that is forced to kill him for killing her father. It will be an agonizing choice for her because by then, she will know what a douchebag her father really was, and what he was going to do to Kings Landing but this will be weighed against the fact that Jaime was a KG and sworn to protect her father. She will also have to make the choice between morality and honour.

Tyrion will also be there, caught between the love for his brother and his loyalty/love for Dany possibly producing one of the 'treasons'. It will be teased whether it happens or not. That would make for a really strong emotionally-charged storyline.

I could care less about UnCat's plot. For all I care, perhaps Lord Tarly can wipe out the BwB and save Brienne and Jaime.

[Wouter]

I could care less about UnCat's plot. For all I care, perhaps Lord Tarly can wipe out the BwB and save Brienne and Jaime.

Lord Tarly is an invader in the Riverlands who is hanging people left and right. If he defeats the BwB, a lot of good people will die, including Thoros and Gendry, and I also fear for the orphans of the inn of the crossroads.

No, the BWB still is one of the more sympathetic groups in the books, in spite of them getting darker and never having been totally white to start with. At least they do fight for the commoners. I also think they will strike Riverrun and be succesful there.

I don't agree Jaime is now not even a grey character. Even his recent actions at Riverrun are a darker shade of grey, considering his methods (some of those threats were bloodchilling) and the fact he is still waging war against the Tullys in spite of his promise. Jaime is not Ramsay or Euron or Gregor and I don't think he is to die in this cliffhanger - but I doubt he is meant to survive the last book though. A redemptive dead is what I think is in store for him in the end.

Dany may forgive him for killing her father, but he also completely failed to protect Rhaegar's kids and she may still hold that against him. Especially as his father's men wouldn't have touched them if he had protected them, and he only need to hold out against his fathers demands until Ned Stark showed up to take the children and Elia in (protective) custody.

[Eustace Black]

I don't agree Jaime is now not even a grey character. Even his recent actions at Riverrun are a darker shade of grey, considering his methods (some of those threats were bloodchilling) and the fact he is still waging war against the Tullys in spite of his promise. Jaime is not Ramsay or Euron or Gregor and I don't think he is to die in this cliffhanger - but I doubt he is meant to survive the last book though. A redemptive dead is what I think is in store for him in the end.

I'm pretty sure he vowed that he himself will not raise arms against Starks or Tullys, he has been marching around scaring people into submission. A loophole. His past is definitely checkered, but he's been summarily cowed (cuckolded and maimed) and on my disdain/appreciation scale, he's been brought to neutral.