[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[King_Baratheon]

Can somone point me in the direction of "Bran's Dream" referenced here? Which book was it? Beginning, middle or end of the book? I missed it and am now very curious

Got pg.162..."There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

[The BlackWolf]

Got pg.162..."There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

Well that sounds pretty damn convincing to me... I totally don't know what to think (again).

I was coming round to the idea that whatever Brienne had shouted was too little too late, but then UnCat passed on the kiss. UnJaime would then be a possibility should he die in battle, say a trial by combat? Cersei's or otherwise.

But Bran's vision suggests shit's gonna go down in the Vale. Sandor could easily arrive there from the Isle of Faces, Jaime could be anywhere following his 'business' with Brienne, but can't think of a reason for Robert Strong to go marauding round Westeros, except if he's sent to retrieve Littlefinger because the Small Concil needs a competent master of coin.

[Lord Damian]

I assumed That one of three things will happen to Jamei with Briene. or maybe all three

1- He will be brought before Uncat and piss himself and become somewhat of a follower due to the miracle of Cat still being alive.

2- He will agree to secure the release of all of the prisoners from the Red Wedding, including lord Tulley and promise to go on a quest to get Sansa.

3- He just gets killed by Uncat

[Aress]

Sure. She could have shouted "Rumplestiltskin" or "whore", but those don't seem to be very good theories.

The choice she were offered had code words assigned to it: "sword" or "noose". And why would she yell "noose"?

Ah of course, since "rumplestiltskin" and "whore" are unlikely, it must have been sword. Wait, what? Seriously, it could have been.... anything. It could have been "oathkeeper", as in "I'm going to keep my oath". It could have been "Sansa" as in I am going to save her regardless. It could have been "Catelyn", appealing to unCat's last fragment of humanity.

(1) It is reasonable to suppose that SOMEONE will become the Shadow with the face of the Hound.

(2) The assumption that that SOMEONE would be Sandor is no longer valid. Sandor has left the face of the Hound behind.

(3) Brienne is the best candidate for a Sandor impersonator. (If you disagree, name a better choice).

I disagree not because I have a better candidate, but because I am unsure. You seem to be sure, but I'm not convinced by the evidence you are presenting.

Also, just throwing it out there, but just because Sandor has put the hound days behind him, doesn't mean he doesn't have "the face of the hound" (which he does, because it is terrible, and it is distinctive).

That Brienne is out to kill, and indeed HAS killed, Jaime, is the obvious conclusion from the available evidence. Some here, who disagree with it, even argue that it is TOO obvious.

No. What is obvious is that Brienne has sought out Jaime. Her intentions were specifically kept hidden by GRRM. The obvious conclusion to draw from the available evidence is that Brienne said a word that convinced unCat to release her (whether for reasons of chivalry or revenge), and that Brienne needs to contact Jaime for whatever reason (whether good or bad).

How someone can draw definitive conclusions from this is simply beyond me.

[Fearsome Fred]

Ah of course, since "rumplestiltskin" and "whore" are unlikely, it must have been sword.

No. I am merely proposing "sword" as a good theory, which makes sense in context, and stands head and shoulders above all the "it could be anything" options, like, for instance "Rosebud".

Wait, what? Seriously, it could have been.... anything.

What are you? A parrot. I just said that. It could be anything, even Rumplestiltskin or whore.

It could have been "oathkeeper", as in "I'm going to keep my oath".

Theoretically, yes. But it is an unconvincing theory that makes no intelligible sense in context. Which oath is she talking about? And why would UnCat care?

The meaning of "sword" (as in: choose "sword" if you agree to kill Jaime) has just been explained to her. It has just been explained to her that "sword" is the word she must say to save her life. Context provides no equivalent meaning for "oathkeeper).

It could have been "Sansa" as in I am going to save her regardless.

She already mentioned Sansa. UnCat does not care.

It could have been "Catelyn", appealing to unCat's last fragment of humanity.

Whereupon UnCat hangs her anyway. Oh well.

"Whore!" seems more likely to me, really. Of course, UnCat would still hang her, but at least she would die defiant.

I disagree not because I have a better candidate, but because I am unsure. You seem to be sure, but I'm not convinced by the evidence you are presenting.

Oh. So you really have nothing to add to the discussion, except to point out your remarkable insight that I am NOT in fact George RR Martin revealing inside spoiler secrets, but merely a reader presenting a theory on a forum. Thanks for letting us all know.

Also, just throwing it out there, but just because Sandor has put the hound days behind him, doesn't mean he doesn't have "the face of the hound" (which he does, because it is terrible, and it is distinctive).

If "terrible" and "distinctive" is all it means, then perhaps Tyrion is the "shadow with the terrible face of a hound". But the connection to the helmet was the only reason anyone thought it referred to Sandor to begin with.

Meanwhile, Brienne's face now is just as terrible and distinctive; and it is she, not Sandor, who was last seen in contact with a minion of Shadow (UnCat).

No. What is obvious is that Brienne has sought out Jaime. Her intentions were specifically kept hidden by GRRM. The obvious conclusion to draw from the available evidence is that Brienne said a word that convinced unCat to release her (whether for reasons of chivalry or revenge), and that Brienne needs to contact Jaime for whatever reason (whether good or bad).

How someone can draw definitive conclusions from this is simply beyond me.

I never said I was "sure". I never said my conclusions were "definitive". Why this ridiculous straw man?

Why do you even post on these forums, if speculative theory offends you so bad? Just go away and wait until the next book comes out, for god's sake!

All I am saying is that all the clues point to the idea that Brienne is most likely out to kill Jaime and that Jaime is probably dead by now. This is the hypothesis that any remotely intelligent person would form if presented with equivalent facts in a real life situation. Could this be wrong? Sure. Could all these clues be red herrings placed by GRRM merely to make his readers nervous? Sure.

[boojam]

It was near midnight when two came riding back with a woman they had taken captive. “She rode up bold as you please, m’lord, demanding words with you.”

Jaime scrambled to his feet. “My lady. I had not thought to see you again so soon.” Gods be good, she looks ten years older than when I saw her last. And what’s happened to her face? “That bandage … you’ve been wounded …”

“A bite.” She touched the hilt of her sword, the sword that he had given her. Oathkeeper. “My lord, you gave me a quest.”

“The girl. Have you found her?”

“I have,” said Brienne, Maid of Tarth.

“Where is she?”

“A day’s ride. I can take you to her, ser … but you will need to come alone. Elsewise, the Hound will kill her.”

You know there are 15 pages in this thread, so far, and the above is all GRRM left us with.

It's amazing how much flap doodle people derive from George's tomato surprise!

[Aress]

What are you? A parrot. I just said that. It could be anything, even Rumplestiltskin or whore.

No, you were adamant it was sword... only sword.... no other possibility... to think otherwise is ridiculous. And clearly I have to repeat myself because you aren't listening to anything I say.

Theoretically, yes. But it is an unconvincing theory that makes no intelligible sense in context. Which oath is she talking about? And why would UnCat care?

Unlike you, I'm not saying that WAS the word, I'm just saying it is a possibility. And it does make sense, because it was in context. UnCat called it oathbreaker, so she would clearly know the context.

Also, another possibility is that it was a 'fake hanging' to test the resolve of Brienne. Who knows? The possibilities are endless.

Oh. So you really have nothing to add to the discussion, except to point out your remarkable insight that I am NOT in fact George RR Martin revealing inside spoiler secrets, but merely a reader presenting a theory on a forum. Thanks for letting us all know.

Yes, so far in this thread my discussion has been largely limited to counter-balancing yours. And please stop with the simply "presenting theories" line, you were presenting them as facts. And I was merely pointing out that they weren't.

If "terrible" and "distinctive" is all it means, then perhaps Tyrion is the "shadow with the terrible face of a hound". But the connection to the helmet was the only reason anyone thought it referred to Sandor to begin with.

Wait, are you arguing for me now? You're right, terrible and distinctive faces COULD mean anyone.

I never said I was "sure". I never said my conclusions were "definitive". Why this ridiculous straw man?

Ummm, you kinda did. See previous statements you have made in this thread.

Why do you even post on these forums, if speculative theory offends you so bad? Just go away and wait until the next book comes out, for god's sake!

It's not speculative theories that annoy me, it's people presenting their theories as fact, and leaving little room for discussion.

[lady crackhead]

I miss TheSeaKing'sDaughter's posts on Jaime.

I dont remember anything she said to defend him, but I knew they were fun to read. /Jon Snow emope

[Knight of Ashes]

I miss TheSeaKing'sDaughter's posts on Jaime.

I dont remember anything she said to defend him, but I knew they were fun to read. /Jon Snow emope

I remember her obliterating you on a regular basis whenever you tried to make Theon look better than Jaime.:lmao:

[iamthedave]

This is not much of an argument. Only 4 POVs are confirmed dead. One DID technically die offscreen. Two died on-screen but off-POV, and one died on-POV. (And, since the fake off-screen POV deaths were meant to keep us guessing, the author does not mean us to understand that any such rule exists).

It's as much of an argument as any you've put forward, in fairness.

Jaime is a massive character in the series, a fan favourite, and one that GRRM pinned a lot of plot and some prophecy onto. I would say the chances of such a character dying off screen are equal to the chances of Dany dying between this book and the start of the next. If Jaime dies, we'll be there to see it. That fits the pattern of Martin's writing, and I don't see an argument which suggests otherwise, especially after the entire arc in AFFC of him trying to learn swordsmanship again. It all seems pointed toward him duelling someone or something. Perhaps Robert Strong.

And yet, the evidence suggests that she has already killed him. This may be out of character for Brienne; but you can hardly make that argument for UnBrienne. If anything, this sounds like an argument FOR my position.

There is no evidence that she has killed him. Zero. All there is is the confirmation that he's disappeared. This in a continent so large that - as is confirmed in Dance - most people don't even know that Stannis is at the wall.

And you're taking it as solid evidence he's dead because ONE man has disappeared off the radar for a short time. People don't even know where a host numbering thousands has gone.

So I'd say you're stretching it at best. The evidence points to nothing whatsoever.

In fact, you're taking the fact that only one chapter was included and using that as evidence to support your theory when Martin said explicitly that he intended to include a couple of 'catch up' chapters specifically to resolve some of the key cliffhangers from AFFC. All this chapter does is confirm that Brienne and Jaime are alive and hint to what awaits them in AWOW. There's no confirmation that Jaime EVEN GETS TO STONEHEART.

Likewise we have no idea that Brienne intends to follow through on the mission to kill Jaime, or if she has some other plan for which she needs his help. All of these things would be made less mysterious if we had a Brienne POV, hence why it was in Jaime's. It confirmed what needed to be confirmed without revealing anything that Martin had planned. Pretty much what he said he'd do, in other words.

[Lord Godric]

Well that sounds pretty damn convincing to me... I totally don't know what to think (again).

I was coming round to the idea that whatever Brienne had shouted was too little too late, but then UnCat passed on the kiss. UnJaime would then be a possibility should he die in battle, say a trial by combat? Cersei's or otherwise.

I can't remember if we got any description of Brienne, but if Brienne did in fact hang and Stoneheart passed on the kiss to revive her, we would have seen the marks from the rope that killed Brienne. Since there is no mention of any bruising on Brienne's neck, I would assume she is in fact still wholly alive.

[Black Crow]

As the one who introduced Rumplestiltskin into this thread can I respectfully suggest that some people are reading far too much into very little.

In the first place there's no reason to doubt that the word Brienne screamed as she was being hoisted up was "Sword!" Cat wasn't present so shouting Arya or Oathkeeper would have meant as little to her executioners as Rumplestiltskin; only "Sword" as in OK, OK... I'll do it, I'll go and get Jaimie had any power to stop them.

As to her appearance on meeting Jaimie, she's had a pretty rough time both before and during her ordeal and with half her cheek chewed off its no wonder her face is bandaged. There's no reason to read anything else into her haggard appearance and certainly no reason to suspect that she's died and been brought back to life - why bother? If she wasn't prepared to go hunting Jaimie when she was alive, why would she do so after she's dead?

Then there's her statement that the girl is a day's ride away and in danger. Again its pretty straightforward. Jaimie needs to come with her quickly and the fact she's been wounded will reinforce the suggestion of danger, while by telling him the girl is (relatively) close at hand, he's going to be a whole lot less inclined to be careful and insist on taking more men just in case.

[Aress]

As the one who introduced Rumplestiltskin into this thread can I respectfully suggest that some people are reading far too much into very little.

In the first place there's no reason to doubt that the word Brienne screamed as she was being hoisted up was "Sword!" Cat wasn't present so shouting Arya or Oathkeeper would have meant as little to her executioners as Rumplestiltskin; only "Sword" as in OK, OK... I'll do it, I'll go and get Jaimie had any power to stop them.

As to her appearance on meeting Jaimie, she's had a pretty rough time both before and during her ordeal and with half her cheek chewed off its no wonder her face is bandaged. There's no reason to read anything else into her haggard appearance and certainly no reason to suspect that she's died and been brought back to life - why bother? If she wasn't prepared to go hunting Jaimie when she was alive, why would she do so after she's dead?

Then there's her statement that the girl is a day's ride away and in danger. Again its pretty straightforward. Jaimie needs to come with her quickly and the fact she's been wounded will reinforce the suggestion of danger, while by telling him the girl is (relatively) close at hand, he's going to be a whole lot less inclined to be careful and insist on taking more men just in case.

Word.

[Clash]

In the first place there's no reason to doubt that the word Brienne screamed as she was being hoisted up was "Sword!" Cat wasn't present so shouting Arya or Oathkeeper would have meant as little to her executioners as Rumplestiltskin; only "Sword" as in OK, OK... I'll do it, I'll go and get Jaimie had any power to stop them.

The only sensible conclusion to draw, not definite but unlikely to be anything else.

As to her appearance on meeting Jaimie, she's had a pretty rough time both before and during her ordeal and with half her cheek chewed off its no wonder her face is bandaged. There's no reason to read anything else into her haggard appearance and certainly no reason to suspect that she's died and been brought back to life - why bother? If she wasn't prepared to go hunting Jaimie when she was alive, why would she do so after she's dead?

We also know whe suffered from a fever after her ordeal at the inn and was close to death. As soon as she was capable of standing she was brought before Lady Stoneheart and given the ultimatum. This would account for her aged appearance to Jaime. As for the undead theory, exactly as above, what's the point other than to appeal to Fred's rather prurient interest in the phenomenon.

Then there's her statement that the girl is a day's ride away and in danger. Again its pretty straightforward. Jaimie needs to come with her quickly and the fact she's been wounded will reinforce the suggestion of danger, while by telling him the girl is (relatively) close at hand, he's going to be a whole lot less inclined to be careful and insist on taking more men just in case.

And this is the crux of the chapter. What was Brienne's plan? We already know that she's deeply conflicted about Jaime and that she feels she owes him for saving her from the bear. That she would immediately kill him is completely out of character and goes against the long exposition of her relationship with him that developed through AFfC. There would be no point to this character development unless there was to be some crux later in the story that would draw on those experiences and explain some future actions. She was ready to die rather than betray him and only changed her mind when she realised that Pod would also die through no fault of his own. By calling out 'sword' (as we believe) she has bought time for herself to come up with a plan to fulfil her original oath to Catelyn (bring her daughters back) and save Jaime.

[iamthedave]

Also, there's several occasions where severe trauma 'prematurely ages' people in these books. See: Theon. He looks... what, twenty years older now? And he's not unTheon.

[Clash]

Also, there's several occasions where severe trauma 'prematurely ages' people in these books. See: Theon. He looks... what, twenty years older now? And he's not unTheon.

Nope, he's definitely Theon; "you have to know your name" :D

[lady crackhead]

I remember her obliterating you on a regular basis whenever you tried to make Theon look better than Jaime.:lmao:

Now i remember why it was so funny !! Thanks, Ashes.

I still miss her. /stark lover emope

[Fearsome Fred]

[...] only "Sword" as in OK, OK... I'll do it, I'll go and get Jaimie had any power to stop them.

Yes, but "sword" did no mean "I agree to GET Jaime". It meant "I agree to KILL Jaime," as in "Take the sword and kill the Kingslayer."

If she wasn't prepared to go hunting Jaimie when she was alive, why would she do so after she's dead?

Lack of compassion or normal human feeling. As with Stoneheart.

[Fearsome Fred]

Since there is no mention of any bruising on Brienne's neck, I would assume she is in fact still wholly alive.

If "no bruising" could be established, it would be more logical to conclude she had not been hanged at all. Except that but we know she was.

But warriors often wear armor, and armor often covers the throat.

[Fearsome Fred]

There's no confirmation that Jaime EVEN GETS TO STONEHEART.

As far as we know, taking Jaime to Stoneheart was not the mission. The mission we heard proposed was "Take the sword and kill the Kingslayer."

Likewise we have no idea that Brienne intends to follow through on the mission to kill Jaime [...]

The fact that she lured him away weeks or months ago, and he has not been heard from since, sounds like an indication to me.

If that's not what you want to happen, that is fine. YOu could just say "That's not what I want to happen, and I hope you are wrong." Sure, maybe George is just trying to create tension, and make Jaime fans nervous. But to deny that he has given them any reason whatsoever to be nervous is just silly.