[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[Fearsome Fred]

it would seem either Brienne and/or Jaime will have to stay with Catelyn for the duration of the Frey revenge arc unless someone wants to seriously argue that Catelyn getting her revenge will occur off-screen.

Ummm ... yes, I would seriously argue that, if there is to be more Frey murders, they will occur offscreen. How much of this do we need to see first hand?

This is why I continue to believe that Brienne will take up residence as Catelyn's "hostage" while the latter sends Jaime to find and retrieve Sansa (and possibly Arya as well). I've always found this the most likely outcome arising from Brienne collecting Jaime. And the fact that Jaime went with her, alone and unprotected, might just do the trick of convincing Catelyn that Brienne would serve as an adequate hostage ensuring that Jaime will actually carry out the mission of finding Catelyn's daughters.

Well, Bran's dream does seem imply that the "shadows" (including Giant Shadow, Golden Shadow and Hound Shadow) will converge around Arya and Sansa.

[Clash]

What Crash did, Aress, was put a bunch of words in my mouth that I never said because Crash is too small and petty to deal with actual discussion and honest disagreement. Crash is a small minded petty persons. If you admire him for his dishonest tactics, it is because you too, Aress, are a small minded and petty person. And that goes for you too, MyDogIsNamedDaenerys.

Yes, I get it. You don't like my theory and hope it's wrong. Nothing wrong with that. That does not excuse your cheerleading for a liar. You would not like such "tactics" used on you.

Hmmm.

...What I object to is ad-hominem attacks and crybaby whining...

:agree:

[Happy Ent]

FF, Clash, this has to stop. Some of us want to actually discuss the topic, and you’re attracting moderator wrath to this thread like Cersei’s privates attract Kettleblacks.

I’m sure you’ve both been on the internet long enough to know when to just leave it. The way to save face is to be the bigger man/woman/tree/nanobot, leave the thread and find something (and someone!) else to debate. We’d like both of you to stick around for a long time, and you need to be able to bump into each other in other threads as well without namecalling.

Mandatory link to xkcd 386 .

[NoOne]

I assume she will take him to meet Catelyn at which point the latter will hold Brienne hostage while Jaime actually tries to fulfill his own vow for once. I'm starting to become more and more assured that Jaime, Sandor, and Robert Strong (i.e., Gregor) will all converge in the Vale, per Bran's dream. I'm even starting to entertain the idea that Varys and/or Illyrio will hire the Faceless Men to kill Littlefinger and thereby bring Arya into the mix as well.

Nice pick up! Which book & where is this, or could you quote it for me? There are so many I lose track trying to find them. Thanks

[Fearsome Fred]

Nice pick up! Which book & where is this, or could you quote it for me? There are so many I lose track trying to find them. Thanks

Bran's coma dream, in aGoT (Bran's 3d chapter, p 162 US mass market paperback).

"He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing but darkness and thick black blood."

Here's another interesting quote from Thoros, talking to Brienne in her final POV chapter in FEAST (US mass market paperback p 907).:

"Lord Beric's fire has gone out of this world, I fear. A grimmer shadow leads us in his place."

So according to Thoros, Beric was, and Catelyn still is, a "shadow". This, together with the example of Robert Strong, makes me suspect that "shadow" in the dream refers to something more than merely a sinister but otherwise normal human being.

Rh'llor, of course, is the God of Flame and Shadow.

[Ser_Pounce_from_twitter]

I posted a thread about this and I'm not sure if it will ever get posted. I think the first 2 times I screwed up with the rules, but I think Brienne has "broken" in the Septon Meribald sense:

“For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails is after they’ve been gutted by an axe.

“They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are now his. They take a wound, and when that’s still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

“... And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize. They don’t know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they are fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world…

“And the man breaks."

She was sent on a fools mission and a wild goose chase. Her honor and her irrational admiration of Jaime kept her going for a while but watching her friends die with the noose around her neck herself, it was too much.

[Aress]

What Crash did, Aress, was put a bunch of words in my mouth that I never said because Crash is too small and petty to deal with actual discussion and honest disagreement. Crash is a small minded petty persons. If you admire him for his dishonest tactics, it is because you too, Aress, are a small minded and petty person.

This will be my last post in response to you Fearsome Fred.

Firstly, you don't know me, so don't presume to call me small minded and petty thank you very much.

Secondly, I was continually frustrated by discussions with you, as you simply dismissed anything and everything I said on the subject, and strongly hinted that it was pretty much stupidity to disagree with you.

What Crash did was pretty much use your own tactics against you. And by the way, although obviously taken to the extreme, the majority of his overview of your arguments was correct.

[Fearsome Fred]

....

[Red Dirt]

I love how angry this thread has become. Truly this is why the internet was invented.

[ICE CROW]

she colected Jaime cus it was the only way to save her life and the life of Pod, she doesn't want to harm Jamie but what choice does she have.

[oneeye]

I thought Brienne was off with Jaime to find Sandor Clegane, and pick up Arya's trail. NMH.

[Daemrion]

I think one point of consideration not being much discussed is that it would seem either Brienne and/or Jaime will have to stay with Catelyn for the duration of the Frey revenge arc unless someone wants to seriously argue that Catelyn getting her revenge will occur off-screen. This is why I continue to believe that Brienne will take up residence as Catelyn's "hostage" while the latter sends Jaime to find and retrieve Sansa (and possibly Arya as well). I've always found this the most likely outcome arising from Brienne collecting Jaime. And the fact that Jaime went with her, alone and unprotected, might just do the trick of convincing Catelyn that Brienne would serve as an adequate hostage ensuring that Jaime will actually carry out the mission of finding Catelyn's daughters.

Good point. We do need someone to POV the Frey revenge arc, unless GRRM is going to write it off screen, which he still could.

Maybe instead of looking in at the story, we should consider things outside the narrative itself for clues as to what will happen.

[Clash]

I thought Brienne was off with Jaime to find Sandor Clegane, and pick up Arya's trail. NMH.

This seems to be the most likely outcome. Sansa has disappeared completely without a trace. We know where she is, but Littlefinger has hidden her trail very well, so for everyone else, she's at KL and then disappears after Joffrey's murder along with her husband. Neither of them have been seen since, although Jaime knows that Tyrion is not with her (at least not at the time of his escape).

There is a trail to Arya though, she's been seen looking for a ship and it's known that she was with Sandor. Additionally, Brienne must know where Sandor is and apparently that's where she's bringing Jaime. Using his nickname is just a little bit of obfuscation by George because of the juxtaposition of Sandor's hound helm with the brotherhood.

This all leaads to the possibility of Brienne and Jaime turning up in Braavos, where it seems everyone is congregating these days ;), possibly with Clegane in tow :o

[Fearsome Fred]

Sansa has disappeared completely without a trace.

Right. So Brienne is lying.

There is a trail to Arya though, she's been seen looking for a ship and it's known that she was with Sandor.

Even if she is talking about Arya, she is still lying. Brienne may have a trail to follow, but she does not know where it leads. Brienne believes Sandor is dead, and, in any event, knows that Sandor and Arya have separated.

Additionally, Brienne must know where Sandor is and apparently that's where she's bringing Jaime.

No. What is apparent is that Brienne is telling Jaime a pack of lies.

[Clash]

Right. So Brienne is lying.

Nope, Brienne doesn't know that it's Arya, she thinks she's been following Sansa's trail. We know it's Arya.

Even if she is talking about Arya, she is still lying. Brienne may have a trail to follow, but she does not know where it leads. Brienne believes Sandor is dead, and, in any event, knows that Sandor and Arya have separated.

Brienne has seen Sandor's horse, she's had a long chat with the Abbott about... Sandor, she notes the gravedigger. She doesn't say explicitly that it's him, but she's not stupid.

[Fearsome Fred]

Nope, Brienne doesn't know that it's Arya, she thinks she's been following Sansa's trail. We know it's Arya.

She knows it is the younger sister. The septon told her so. But she knows Jaime's question about "the girl" refers to Sansa, and that her answer will be understood accordingly.

In any event she has not yet "found the girl" whether the girl is Arya or Sansa. She is lying.

Brienne has seen Sandor's horse, she's had a long chat with the Abbott about... Sandor, she notes the gravedigger. She doesn't say explicitly that it's him, but she's not stupid.

We see these events from her POV, and as far as we know, she never makes the connection.

But it does not matter. She either believes Sandor is dead, or knows he is on the Quiet Isle. Either way, she knows he does not have Sansa OR Arya.

Her story to Jaime is a lie.

[Black Crow]

Well of course its a lie. She's basically saying I know where the Stark girl is. She's close by but she's in danger so come quick.

As its urgent Jaimie very naturally jumps on his horse and goes off with her, without waiting for tedious explanations or rounding up the cavalry.

The truth will have come as soon as they were out of earshot of the rest, but what exactly the two of them are up to will have to wait because we really don't have enough information to go beyond the obvious fact that Brienne was cut down in return for screaming that she'd go after him - in order to spare Pod. Presumably she'll have explained this to Jaimie which is why he has neither come back nor been discovered hanging from an apple-tree.

The only real question is whether he's going to to be delivered up to Cat for an interview without coffee, or whether the two of them are going to go riding into the middle of the BwB together like the Wrath of God - I'd buy tickets to watch that one!

[Fearsome Fred]

Well of course its a lie.

Of course

The truth will have come as soon as they were out of earshot of the rest [...]

Presumably. But that moment has passed, and GRRM has chosen to keep us in the dark.

The only real question is whether he's going to to be delivered up to Cat for an interview without coffee, or whether the two of them are going to go riding into the middle of the BwB together like the Wrath of God - I'd buy tickets to watch that one!

What happened to "Take the sword and kill the kingslayer"?

[Black Crow]

What happened to "Take the sword and kill the kingslayer"?

An oath made under duress isn't binding

[Fearsome Fred]

An oath made under duress isn't binding

Hmmm. How dumb of Catelyn not to realize that.

But ... I must wonder. If she is going to tell Jaime the truth, but not try to harm him, why not just ask for a pivate audience? Why lure him away from the safety of his men, and THEN tell him the truth?