[ADWD] Brienne Collecting Jaime

[Fearsome Fred]

Your clues as you now call them, are assumptions based on nothing other than wishful thinking.

Incorrect. Wishful thinking maybe involved, but my clues come from the books, and are not based on "nothing". Again, do you want me to repeat them?

You again assume she's undead without providing any 'clues' other than her appearance to Jaime. An appearance that's consistent with her injuries and subsequent fever.

That was not one of my main clues. In fact, my theory that Brienne would become the undead Shadow Hound, fulfilling Bran's dream prophesy, was formed before I even read ADWD. I do not consider Brienne's aged appearance in ADWD to be a "clue" so much as something that is consistent with a theory already formed. Hence, I disagreed with the claim that Brienne's appearance "rules out" my theory.

You continually whinge that we don't accept your so called 'clues' yet at the same time refuse to even recognise that there are other more mundane and realistic explanations for these 'clues'.

I have not whined at all. Nobody is obliged to accept my theories.

Again the undead argument. A gratuitous and unnecessary one, but one you must cling to in order to bolster the other one. What you're saying essentially, is that alive Brienne would never kill Jaime, but undead Brienne would, so therefore Brienne must be undead.

I merely argued that one flaw in the "Brienne would never kill Jaime, therefore Jaime is not dead" argument, is that it fails to consider the possibility of UnBrienne. It is my opponents who argue that Brienne would never kill Jaime (a premise I don't necessarily accept). I merely argue that IF one accepts their starting premise ... the UnBrienne hypothesis resolves the tension between the claim that Brienne would never kill Jaime, and the evidence suggesting that she has killed him.

We have no idea how long he's missing. All we know is that he's missing long enough for word of his disappearance to reach Kings Landing and we only learn this in the Epilogue to ADWD.

No. We learned it earlier in one of the Cersei chapters. But you may well be correct that there is no reference to the amount of time that has passed.

One interesting thing I found, while reviewing the chapters, was that Cersei had sent Qyburn to search for Jaime. Perhaps Qyburn found him ....

Far more likely to be recognised? Jaime has an army looking for him.

Army or no army, the fact is that they have not found him. Dead bodies are easier to hide than living bodies.

If Brienne killed him almost immediately or even within a days ride, he'd still be relatively easy to find in that time span.

I disagree. A day's ride suggests a radius of 30 miles or more, which suggests 2,826 square miles or more. Even a single square mile is alot of ground to search.

Why would she hide his body or his horse for that matter?

I don't know that she did. Maybe she brought it to UnCat. Or not.

Actually how does your theory account for his horse not being found?

Maybe Brienne still has the horse. Maybe she's still using it to transport his body. Or maybe the horse is not that distinctive, and nobody (other than Jaime) remembers what it looks like. Maybe the horse has been eaten by hungry wolves, or by hungry people. I have no idea where the horse is or why they have not found it. There could be a million plausible explanations.

She assuredly does not believe he is dead, she cuts her uncle off before he can even state the possibility of it with a confident declaration that she'd know it if he was.

Wow! First you say this is "not evidence", and then, when I take a more charitable position, you try to offer it as adequate proof. Cersei could be wrong. Alternately, her current certainty could be based on the her sensing the the continued earthbound Undead presence of Jaime's trapped soul.

Perhaps Jaime's undeath is an aftereffect of Qyburn's treatment of his arm. Perhaps his soul is trapped. Perhaps, when Cersei sent Qyburn to look for him, Qyburn found his corpse, and is now continuing the treatment. Or not. Or perhaps Cersei's ability to immediately sense the temporary death of her twin is not as precise as you suppose.

Note that it is after Qyburn's treatment of his arm that Jaime has a dream where he senses some nameless entity (Rh'llor?) wants him for some sinister purpose. Then we have further sinister foreshadowing when Victarion's arm gets treated by a Red Priest.

As for the zombie walking dead argument, he has to die first before he can be resurrected, that's the moment that would echo through a twin link, the resurrection (if your reading of it is correct) may not even register as life with his twin.

You are making alot of assumptions here. Why should I assume this supposed "twin link" is that precise? It is a stretch to assume it is anything other than denial on Cersei's part. I thought I was being charitable by giving it any weight at all.

But in fact, I think there is something to her intuition. I think her vision of Jaime returning, with armor shining in the sun, is prophetic, and connects, in a sinister way, to Bran's vision of the Shadow in golden armor armor shining like the sun.

There are only two people so far who've lived an 'undead' life; Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn Stark. They have not existed in this state contemperaneously, yet you seem to have them multiplying like rabbits or passing unlife from one to another like a demented game of pass the parcel.

Well ... the reference to "ghost grass", from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, which glows with the souls of the damned, and which spreads and replaces the living grass, until it will one day cover the entire world, seems to me like it might be foreshadowing.

[Clash]

Incorrect. That was not one of my main clues. In fact, my theory that Brienne would become the undead Shadow Hound, fulfilling Bran's dream prophesy, was formed before I even read ADWD. I do not consider Brienne's aged appearance in ADWD to be a "clue" so much as something that is consistent with a theory already formed. Hence, I disagreed with the claim that Brienne's appearance "rules out" my theory.

That in itself is a huge leap when most people see Bran's dream as impacting only on the Starks and in particular Arya and Sansa. The hound in the vision could hardly be anyone other than Sandor Clegane who's already had an impact on both Arya and Sansa. Brienne has never worn the hound helm and never came in contact with Bran to whom (if it were supposed to be her) that vision would be meaningless. That's a greater leap by a factor of ten than her appearance to Jaime.

I merely argued that one flaw in the "Brienne would never kill Jaime, therefore Jaime is not dead" argument, is that it fails to consider the possibility of UnBrienne. It is my opponents who argue that Brienne would never kill Jaime (a premise I don't necessarily accept). I merely argue that IF one accepts their starting premise ... the UnBrienne hypothesis resolves the tension between the claim that Brienne would never kill Jaime, and the evidence suggesting that she has killed him.

Seriously? You think it's a valid argument to drag up some wild hypothesis to bolster an argument that's too weak to stand on its own?

One interesting thing I found, while reviewing the chapters, was that Cersei had sent Qyburn to search for Jaime. Perhaps Qyburn found him ....

I don't think she did. I think you're remembering the letter she told Qyburn to send to Jaime after which she didn't see Qyburn again, but she was still able to contact him through Ser Kevan when she asked him to tell Qyburn that the time was come - we know this refers to Robert Strong.

Army or no army, the fact is that they have not found him. Dead bodies are easier to hide than living bodies.

I disagree. A day's ride suggests a radius of 30 miles or more, which suggests 2,826 square miles or more. Even a single square mile is alot of ground to search.

You again presume that Brienne would have a reason to hide his body or Catelyn if Brienne had brought the body to her - a not unlikely scenario if Brienne was intent on saving Pod's life by carrying out her 'mission'. After that however, Catelyn has never kept her work secret, the point is to terrify those she still seeks vengeance from, as the Freys well know.

I don't know that she did. Maybe she brought it to UnCat. Or not. Maybe Brienne still has the horse. Maybe she's still using it to transport his body. Or maybe the horse is not that distinctive, and nobody (other than Jaime) remembers what it looks like. Maybe the horse has been eaten by hungry wolves, or by hungry people. I have no idea where the horse is of why they have not found it. There could be a million plausible explanations.

Each one adding to the weight of plausible explanations needed to bolster your theory. At this stage it's like a house of cards built on a foundation of tissues.

Wow! First you say this is "not evidence", and then, when I take a more charitable position, you try to offer it as adequate proof. Cersei could be wrong. Alternately, her current certainty could be based on the her sensing the the continued earthbound Undead presence of Jaime's trapped soul.

Nope, I merely expanded in the direction you went. It's still not proof, but your argument against it is pretty weak and relies yet again on undeadness. You rely on that phenomenon when there's no other logical argument available on the basis that nobody can prove it's wrong. Let's put it this way: If your undead predictions ALL come to pass, I'll put it in my sig that you were right and put a link to this thread in it. You can do likewise should your predictions be false.

[Fearsome Fred]

[...] most people see Bran's dream as impacting only on the Starks and in particular Arya and Sansa.

Is this supposed to be an argument? In any event, who's to say it won't impact Arya & Sansa? All these threads are going to have to start converging soon, if there is any hope at all that GRRM will finish this series in 7 or 8 volumes.

The hound in the vision could hardly be anyone other than Sandor Clegane [...]

The Hound in the vision seems to be contemporaneous with Franken-Gregor a/k/a "Robert Strong". That seems to rule out Sandor, who is "the Hound" no longer. This is one of the base ideas underlying my theory.

You think it's a valid argument to drag up some wild hypothesis to bolster an argument that's too weak to stand on its own?

Do you think it is a valid argument to engage in such straw-man hyperbole?

No, I do NOT think that "Brienne looks 10 years older, therefore she must be undead" is a valid argument. How many times and in how many different ways do you want me to say that? Twenty?

As I stated, I merely disagreed with the argument, raised in this thread, that her appearance RULED OUT that she was undead.

But go on. Why don't you beat this dead horse some more.

I don't think she did. I think you're remembering the letter she told Qyburn to send to Jaime after which she didn't see Qyburn again [...]

Possibly.

You again presume that Brienne would have a reason to hide his body or Catelyn if Brienne had brought the body to her - a not unlikely scenario if Brienne was intent on saving Pod's life by carrying out her 'mission'. After that however, Catelyn has never kept her work secret, the point is to terrify those she still seeks vengeance from, as the Freys well know.

Each one adding to the weight of plausible explanations needed to bolster your theory. At this stage it's like a house of cards built on a foundation of tissues.

No, I don't need to presume that Brienne would have a reason to hide his body, because I can think of a zillion other reasons why his body has not been found yet.

The fact is that a dead body is usually easier to hide and/or harder to find than a live person. If the hypothesis that he is dead, but has not been found, is "a house of cards built on a foundation of tissues", then that is just as true (if not doubly true) of the hypothesis that he is alive, but has not been found.

Then, of course, there is a third possibility: that he is undead, but has not been found.

Nope, I merely expanded in the direction you went. It's still not proof, but your argument against it is pretty weak and relies yet again on undeadness. You rely on that phenomenon when there's no other logical argument available on the basis that nobody can prove it's wrong.

Dude. You keep doing this. You offer an argument that you claim disproves my theory, and then, when I point out that it does NOT disprove my theory, you say "That does not prove your theory".

Let's put it this way: If your undead predictions ALL come to pass, I'll put it in my sig that you were right and put a link to this thread in it. You can do likewise should your predictions be false.

Dude. Let's face it. When the book is released 5 years from now, both of us will have forgotten this argument. God help us otherwise.

[Clash]

Is this supposed to be an argument? In any event, who's to say it won't impact Arya & Sansa? All these threads are going to have to start converging soon, if there is any hope at all that GRRM will finish this series in 7 or 8 volumes.

Because they've already impacted on Arya and Sansa. The hound in particular has been a huge influence on both lives. You apparently are discarding this in favour of some future (and somewhat unlikely scenario) involving Brienne and the hound's helm.

The Hound in the vision seems to be contemporaneous with Franken-Gregor a/k/a "Robert Strong". That seems to rule out Sandor, who is "the Hound" no longer. This is one of the base ideas underlying my theory.

Only contemperaneous in that they were in the same vision. His entire vision showed events in chronological order starting with the dagger and Catelyn heading to KL. Even if we were to take your analysis at face value, why would the hound be synonymous with Brienne? Sandor's identity as the hound preceded his use of the helm and there's strong evidence that he's still alive.

Do you think it is a valid argument to engage in such straw-man hyperbole?

Do you even know what a strawman argument is? Please show me the strawman in that quote.

No, I do NOT think that "Brienne looks 10 years older, therefore she must be undead" is a valid argument. How many times and in how many different ways do you want me to say that? Twenty?

Now you're not even on the same page - show me where I mentioned how Brienne looked in that quote, or your one. This is all rather amusing. You accuse me of using strawmen and in the very next line you use one. This is apparently your only argument against those who disagree with you, so whether I use it or not, you still argue against it.

As I stated, I merely disagreed with the argument, raised in this thread, that her appearance RULED OUT that she was undead.

But go on. Why don't you beat this dead horse some more.

Oh dear. :D. Just for the record, nobody said it ruled out her being undead, merely that her appearance was most likely to be a result of her ordeal.

No, I don't need to presume that Brienne would have a reason to hide his body, because I can think of a zillion other reasons why his body has not been found yet.

The fact is that a dead body is usually easier to hide and/or harder to find than a live person. If the hypothesis that he is dead, but has not been found, is "a house of cards built on a foundation of tissues", then that is just as true (if not doubly true) of the hypothesis that he is alive, but has not been found.

Then, of course, there is a third possibility: that he is undead, but has not been found.

It's easier to find a dead body than a live one. Especially a live one that doesn't want to be found. There's the smell for a start, the fact that it can't hide, the gathering of scavengers both in the air and on the ground. But above all else is the fact that if he were dead, the band would have wanted to claim this most important of scalps to add to their fame. Every single kill they made was displayed along the road that Brienne passes through with Pod and Ser Hyle.

Dude. You keep doing this. You offer an argument that you claim disproves my theory, and then, when I point out that it does NOT disprove my theory, you say "That does not prove your theory".

Trouble with comprehension much? Read that quote again and come back when you've got it all in the correct order. I might even explain the tough bits for you.

Dude. Let's face it. When the book is released 5 years from now, both of us will have forgotten this argument. God help us otherwise.

I'm pretty confident that it will be a bit sooner than that and my memory is very good. But don't worry your pretty little head, I'll remind you when the time comes.

Now as you seem to have become very confused with all these multiquotes I'm going to synopsise what you've actually said on this subject.

1. Bran's vision of the hound that he had while he was in a coma was actually not the hound at all, but Brienne wearing his helm and quite likely an undead Brienne at that - because she was hanged by Catelyn and the same vision shows a knight who bears a strong resemblance to (the now dead) Ser Gregor, also undead (possibly) by virtue of Qyburn. As a result, all three shadowy figures are undead because it's catching or something and they're together and there's this grass thingy that kills the live grass...

2. Jaime is dead at the hand of Brienne - this one is fun, because Jaime is now also undead as is Brienne hence he can't be found; apparently undead people can move around in a much more sprightly manner than live ones and are harder to find. But corpses are also hard to find because... well they stay still... Ummm. Anyway, the reasoning goes like this: Brienne alive would never kill Jaime because she loved him, but undead Brienne would, because the undead have no emotions... Except perhaps hate, and a sense of honour... Almost no emotions then, but no inconvenient ones of course. She also doesn't look very well when she collects Jaime and of course you never look your best when you're dead. And she's dead because Catelyn hanged her, but she shouted the word 'sword' before she died so Catelyn had to resurrect her because she was now going to kill Jaime, but she had to die first for this to happen because... Umm, well she just had to die first m'kay?

3. Jaime is undead too because they can't find him and he has to be still around for Bran's vision to come true so he's dead and now alive again and wandering the riverlands or hiding or something. Or maybe he's still dead and in cold storage waiting for the kiss of life for when he's needed.

[iamthedave]

The Hound in the vision seems to be contemporaneous with Franken-Gregor a/k/a "Robert Strong". That seems to rule out Sandor, who is "the Hound" no longer. This is one of the base ideas underlying my theory.

It's a reasonable base idea, but we don't know where George is going with Sandor. The quote from his interview where he said it'll be interesting to 'finish' Sandor's story seems to indicate the Hound will return in some form.

Has he really turned over a new leaf on the Quiet Isle? Or is he just waiting for something to respark his rage and hate?

It's hard to say one way or the other. It seems unlikely to me that Lem Lemoncloak will live out the Winds of Winter. In fact I'll be surprised if the BWB and UnCat survive it. Jaime and Brienne's storyline seems like it can only have three endings: Jaime and Brienne dead, or the BWB broken and UnCat re-dead, or all parties dead. The last option seems unlikely, but one and two are both very possible.

Either way, I think that we'll be down a second Hound, and have a metaphorical argument that there's only one man in Westeros fit to wear the helm (and title) of 'The Hound'.

Which makes me wonder if George is planning to spring Sandor on us as a POV character.

[Été]

Either way, I think that we'll be down a second Hound, and have a metaphorical argument that there's only one man in Westeros fit to wear the helm (and title) of 'The Hound'.

Which makes me wonder if George is planning to spring Sandor on us as a POV character.

Fun as that would be, I thought there were no new POVs planned post-Dance?

Brienne thinks she's reliably informed of his death; if she and Jaime get hold of that helm, I see it getting tossed in the river and "laid to rest". Whether GRRM is enough of a cheeseball to let it roll all the way down to the QI is another story.

[iamthedave]

Fun as that would be, I thought there were no new POVs planned post-Dance?

Brienne thinks she's reliably informed of his death; if she and Jaime get hold of that helm, I see it getting tossed in the river and "laid to rest". Whether GRRM is enough of a cheeseball to let it roll all the way down to the QI is another story.

Did he state that?

Hmm. Well, that seems to put Sandor down as being less likely to return. Part of my reason for thinking we might have a Sandor POV is it doesn't seem like anyone has a reason to visit the Quiet Isle again, and it's quite unlike Martin to just have a major character 'turn up'. Usually he likes to have them found by someone or give them a POV (a la Griff).

Just for giggles, how do you think he might handle a Sandor return without giving him a POV?

EDIT: And yeah, I reckon he might be :D

Plus, damn you for putting that image in my mind. I can just see Sandor digging a grave on the Isle, seeing the helm, pausing in his work to pick it up. Then he breaks his vow of silence with the solemn words 'Bugger this' and sticks his helm back on.

[Clash]

Fun as that would be, I thought there were no new POVs planned post-Dance?

The latest George says about POV characters is this bit where he's talking about finally completing ADWD:

Once, a few years back, I said that I only meant to introduce one new viewpoint character in the book. Which just goes to show why I should never sound off about these things before the book is done...

He goes on to say that eventually he came up with four new viewpoints not counting the prologue and epilogue. I think it's fair to say that he's no longer giving such hostages to fortune and where a POV will resolve a problem, then a POV will be introduced.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

Now as you seem to have become very confused with all these multiquotes I'm going to synopsise what you've actually said on this subject.

1. Bran's vision of the hound that he had while he was in a coma was actually not the hound at all, but Brienne wearing his helm and quite likely an undead Brienne at that - because she was hanged by Catelyn and the same vision shows a knight who bears a strong resemblance to (the now dead) Ser Gregor, also undead (possibly) by virtue of Qyburn. As a result, all three shadowy figures are undead because it's catching or something and they're together and there's this grass thingy that kills the live grass...

2. Jaime is dead at the hand of Brienne - this one is fun, because Jaime is now also undead as is Brienne hence he can't be found; apparently undead people can move around in a much more sprightly manner than live ones and are harder to find. But corpses are also hard to find because... well they stay still... Ummm. Anyway, the reasoning goes like this: Brienne alive would never kill Jaime because she loved him, but undead Brienne would, because the undead have no emotions... Except perhaps hate, and a sense of honour... Almost no emotions then, but no inconvenient ones of course. She also doesn't look very well when she collects Jaime and of course you never look your best when you're dead. And she's dead because Catelyn hanged her, but she shouted the word 'sword' before she died so Catelyn had to resurrect her because she was now going to kill Jaime, but she had to die first for this to happen because... Umm, well she just had to die first m'kay?

3. Jaime is undead too because they can't find him and he has to be still around for Bran's vision to come true so he's dead and now alive again and wandering the riverlands or hiding or something. Or maybe he's still dead and in cold storage waiting for the kiss of life for when he's needed.

LOL Clash you just won the thread. Well freaking done.

Also iamthedave I salute your earlier attempts. I gave up days ago out of pure frustration...

[alguien]

I claim that after Brienne has been cut down, Thoros gives her an update on what Jaime’s been doing. There is no way that update looks good even to members of this board, who’ve been inside Jaime’s head. (Just take his betrayal of Arya’s birthright as an example.) Thoros won’t be painting a pretty picture of this. And Brienne herself has plenty of missing puzzle pieces, such as Jaime’s conversation with Roose. She bloody heard Jaime say “give my regards to Robb Stark”. Now Catelyn can give her first-hand confirmation of what that meant. Catelyn was present when Roose gave those regards. She was bloody killed. When Brienne hears this, she will be overwhelmed by the feelings of betrayal that have been carefully constructed in Feast: Jaime’s just another pretty boy who made a fool of her. And, of course, Jaime took Riverrun. Brienne was there when he gave his oath.

Am I right in this claim? Who knows. But it sounds pretty plausible to me, all the puzzle pieces are there. The opposite idea (Brienne choosing love over honour, ignoring all new information about Jaime, refusing a direct order from her liege, jeopardizing Pod) seems less plausible to me. But of course we know nothing.

Not only that, but if Tom o' Sevens confirms to Brienne Jaime's baby-launching threat to Edmure, it is really quite damning.

I think its plausible. I certainly think it will be used as a source of tension. "Will she kill him? Won't she?" (which is a bit annoying, this cliffhanger is like already 5 years old)

I can see her asking him about a few things as they ride, and then, if they aren't answers she likes, I sort of wonder if they'll have another fight, a parallel to the one they had before. Either before they reach the BwB hideout or as a trial by battle. During which, Jaime realizes he's gotten better than he thought but Brienne still beats him. Then, just as she's about to kill him...

Something happens. Maybe she changes her mind. Maybe Ilyn Payne jumps out of the shadows and kills her. (I was a bit surprised that Payne wasn't mentioned at all in Jaime's chapter--and you KNOW Stoneheart would love to kill him)

It begs the question, did Jaime suspect nothing? Did he just ride off? If he asked any questions other questions, I can't see how Brienne would have been able to lie that well.

[Fearsome Fred]

Now as you seem to have become very confused with all these multiquotes I'm going to synopsise what you've actually said on this subject.

Wow! How kind of you to go to all the trouble of setting forth what I ACTUALLY said. Somehow, the words don't seem to match, but no doubt this is merely due to my faulty memory. Bye now, I think we're done.

[Fearsome Fred]

Part of my reason for thinking we might have a Sandor POV is it doesn't seem like anyone has a reason to visit the Quiet Isle again [...]

Sandor will be given a reason to leave the Quiet Isle. It will be a big reason, and it will be breathing fire.

Who do you go to for help when a dragon is terrorizing the population and devouring men, women and children? You need a Holy Warrior. You need a True Knight. To slay a dragon, you need Saint George. Who will rise to the call? Where in all of wicked Westeros can such a man be found?

But Sandor is afraid of fire, you say. Can a man be brave when he is afraid. That is the only time a man can be brave. Dragons terrible wicked creatures. Brave men kill them. It is known.

[Fearsome Fred]

It's a reasonable base idea, but we don't know where George is going with Sandor. The quote from his interview where he said it'll be interesting to 'finish' Sandor's story seems to indicate the Hound will return in some form.

I expect that "the Hound" and the Gravedigger will both return. But they will continue to be separate people. I think they have parted ways permanently.

Has he really turned over a new leaf on the Quiet Isle?

I think he has. Unlike Jaime, his redemptive arc actually seemed genuine. But that does not mean he will never take up arms again.

It's hard to say one way or the other. It seems unlikely to me that Lem Lemoncloak will live out the Winds of Winter.

Lem Lemoncloak a/k/a The Hound #3, is a very minor character. I don't think that's where the "New Hound" theme is ultimately headed.

Either way, I think that we'll be down a second Hound, and have a metaphorical argument that there's only one man in Westeros fit to wear the helm (and title) of 'The Hound'.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. "The Hound" is not a good thing. "The Hound" is a monster, who murders a child because "He ran."

[Milgod morghulis]

I think he has. Unlike Jaime, his redemptive arc actually seemed genuine. But that does not mean he will never take up arms again.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. "The Hound" is not a good thing. "The Hound" is a monster, who murders a child because "He ran."

Why does Jaime not seem genuine?

He was a bastard, but I thought he only ever acted under orders. I didn't think he just went around murdering and raping.

[iamthedave]

LOL Clash you just won the thread. Well freaking done.

Also iamthedave I salute your earlier attempts. I gave up days ago out of pure frustration...

*accepts salutation, and blasts off... INTO SPACE!!!*

[iamthedave]

I think he has. Unlike Jaime, his redemptive arc actually seemed genuine. But that does not mean he will never take up arms again.

Jaime's redemptive arc is one of the series' most genuine, only replaced now by Theon's. We have no idea what arc the Hound is going through. In fact he isn't even on one yet. A man as hard and bitter as that doesn't do an about face just because he has a poor leggy weggy. He's digging graves, and I think it's safe to say he's thinking about his life - if that's the right term for it - but who knows what conclusions he's come to?

Lem Lemoncloak a/k/a The Hound #3, is a very minor character. I don't think that's where the "New Hound" theme is ultimately headed.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. "The Hound" is not a good thing. "The Hound" is a monster, who murders a child because "He ran."

The circumstances weren't quite that simple. The Hound is a title that belongs to one of the strongest, most lethal swordsmen in this generation of Westerosi. It has every bit as much power and meaning as 'Sword of the Morning' or other titles that have popped up in the series' lore. It's not a question of goodness or badness, really.

The real Hound was formed by a lot of issues, neatly summed up by Thoros I think it was when he described him as 'A man in torment', and said the helm was cursed.

There's a point where you move beyond being 'just a man with a sword who kills people' to being a legend, and Sandor's at that level. Rorge isn't legend material, nor is Lem Lemoncloak. The only man who can wear that helm is Sandor, because HE IS THE HOUND. Just like Sir Arthur Dayne was the Sword of the Morning.

The brothers Clegane are legends in their own time, and not many manage to achieve that. It's why the idea of Brienne wearing the helm rings hollow. She's not the Hound. Sandor is, and nobody BUT Sandor can be.

EDIT: Also, bear in mind that when Rorge is on his business, everyone who actually met the Hound is immediately suspicious and wonders whether it really is Sandor because 'that's not like him'.

[Fearsome Fred]

The Hound is a title that belongs to one of the strongest, most lethal swordsmen in this generation of Westerosi. It has every bit as much power and meaning as 'Sword of the Morning' or other titles that have popped up in the series' lore.

News to me. I thought he was called "The Hound" because of his savage nature, unquestioned obedience to his masters, and horrible helmet.

But I agree he is a lethal swordsman too, and this has earned the name "The Hound" some respect and fear.

The real Hound was formed by a lot of issues, neatly summed up by Thoros I think it was when he described him as 'A man in torment', and said the helm was cursed.

I suspect Thoros is right, more or less. No good will come of that Helm.

There's a point where you move beyond being 'just a man with a sword who kills people' to being a legend, and Sandor's at that level. Rorge isn't legend material, nor is Lem Lemoncloak.

Brienne is on that level, or very near it.

Brienne also is the same height as Sandor, or very near it.

Brienne now has half a face, just like Sandor.

Brienne has blue eyes. Sandor has grey eyes. But when Catelyn turned undead, her blue eyes turned grey. The same will happen to Brienne.

On the other hand, Brienne's broken nose will remind people more of Lem Lemoncloak, than Sandor.

I guess GRRM's clever scheme is to have "the Hound" show up, tease us with glimpses of the face under the helm, and then have readers arguing about whether it is Lem or Sandor.

BTW, I just found a spot in FEAST where both Dondarion and Cateyln are referred to, by Thoros, as "shadows": "Lord Beric's fire has gone out of the world, I fear. A grimmer shadow leads us in his place."

The brothers Clegane are legends in their own time, and not many manage to achieve that. It's why the idea of Brienne wearing the helm rings hollow. She's not the Hound. Sandor is, and nobody BUT Sandor can be.

This sounds like an emotional appeal. All I can say is that it does not warm MY heart.

[Aress]

Now as you seem to have become very confused with all these multiquotes I'm going to synopsise what you've actually said on this subject.

1. Bran's vision of the hound that he had while he was in a coma was actually not the hound at all, but Brienne wearing his helm and quite likely an undead Brienne at that - because she was hanged by Catelyn and the same vision shows a knight who bears a strong resemblance to (the now dead) Ser Gregor, also undead (possibly) by virtue of Qyburn. As a result, all three shadowy figures are undead because it's catching or something and they're together and there's this grass thingy that kills the live grass...

2. Jaime is dead at the hand of Brienne - this one is fun, because Jaime is now also undead as is Brienne hence he can't be found; apparently undead people can move around in a much more sprightly manner than live ones and are harder to find. But corpses are also hard to find because... well they stay still... Ummm. Anyway, the reasoning goes like this: Brienne alive would never kill Jaime because she loved him, but undead Brienne would, because the undead have no emotions... Except perhaps hate, and a sense of honour... Almost no emotions then, but no inconvenient ones of course. She also doesn't look very well when she collects Jaime and of course you never look your best when you're dead. And she's dead because Catelyn hanged her, but she shouted the word 'sword' before she died so Catelyn had to resurrect her because she was now going to kill Jaime, but she had to die first for this to happen because... Umm, well she just had to die first m'kay?

3. Jaime is undead too because they can't find him and he has to be still around for Bran's vision to come true so he's dead and now alive again and wandering the riverlands or hiding or something. Or maybe he's still dead and in cold storage waiting for the kiss of life for when he's needed.

Hahahaha, well done. I believe that was check-mate.

I tried to argue these points with Fearsome Fred, but ultimately got frustrated and dropped it. You've done a good job.

[Faint]

I think one point of consideration not being much discussed is that it would seem either Brienne and/or Jaime will have to stay with Catelyn for the duration of the Frey revenge arc unless someone wants to seriously argue that Catelyn getting her revenge will occur off-screen. This is why I continue to believe that Brienne will take up residence as Catelyn's "hostage" while the latter sends Jaime to find and retrieve Sansa (and possibly Arya as well). I've always found this the most likely outcome arising from Brienne collecting Jaime. And the fact that Jaime went with her, alone and unprotected, might just do the trick of convincing Catelyn that Brienne would serve as an adequate hostage ensuring that Jaime will actually carry out the mission of finding Catelyn's daughters.

[Fearsome Fred]

Hahahaha, well done. I believe that was check-mate.

I tried to argue these points with Fearsome Fred, but ultimately got frustrated and dropped it. You've done a good job.

What Crash did, Aress, was put a bunch of words in my mouth that I never said because Crash is too small and petty to deal with actual discussion and honest disagreement. Crash is a small minded petty persons. If you admire him for his dishonest tactics, it is because you too, Aress, are a small minded and petty person. And that goes for you too, MyDogIsNamedDaenerys.

Yes, I get it. You don't like my theory and hope it's wrong. Nothing wrong with that. That does not excuse your cheerleading for a liar. You would not like such "tactics" used on you.