White-Luck Warrior VI

[Curethan]

Just add umlauts.

[Madness]

Simple question.

In TWP, Aurang liaisons with the second Sarcellus skin-spy, Gaortha. They speak of Kellhus and the Dunyain after Gaortha's sexual interrogation of Serwe.

Now, I think we've wrongly assumed that Nin-Ciljiras and his faction of the Nonmen are squarely in the Consult's pocket. However, Gaortha asks if the Nonmen might have trained Kellhus and Aurang responds that it is possible but there is little Nin-Ciljiras does that the Consult does not know.

What transpires in Ishterebinth?

What if Nin-Ciljiras tries to rule rightly and morally - against the Consult - but is simply undermined by subordinates? What if the Nin line are not the betrayers we are led to believe?

We need to get off this damned "objective morality" tack. It seems to derail the speculation every time it emerges and I feel that too many of us have vested interest in morality in our own world, which then permeates our debates of Earwan reality.

[Sci-2]

Something Bakker has done really well is give us a figure, Khellus, who has mastered so many circumstances it is hard to see him take in the Captain but fail to find any information on Cleric. It is possible, but given the Captain was pushing Cleric on Akka and Mimara reminding him of his past I'd say Khellus has this as much under control as possible.

He must have known of the Niom and brought a son, a daughter, an an enemy. He perhaps even fucked Esmi enough times to ensure he would have the needed daughter - a female who is of the Few. He already had the perfect son, the bloodline of the Scylvendi.

So he gives the Non-men Seswatha, the face of the old enemy, and Sorweel, the enemy who is convincing because he doesn't want to believe. He attempts to wilfully deny the conclusion part of him dreads as truth already known - that Kellhus is the God. Now we don't know if Sorweel's relationship to Yatwer is known to Khellus, but regardless it matters little because Sorweel will say exactly what Nonmen expect him to say - that Kellhus is false, a demon, etc.

This works to Kellhus's favor, because I suspect the Nonmen would rather deal with a false prophet who knowingly deceives than a lunatic who thinks he is a savor. The former is far more likely to win a war. All the while Seswatha within Serwa will goad them to aid her father, and Little Moe will warn them of the Scranc and Scylvendi while wearing the face of the Scylvendi.

I think Little Moe has a bigger part to play than what I'm giving him, but perhaps not. Perhaps he's a minor piece, a place holder to keep Kellhus from having to give the Non-men Kautyas (sp?).

[Madness]

The Nonmen Embassy did swear their fealty Nil'giccas. However, I have to assume that Kellhus knows this is not true because Kellhus had to have supplied Kosoter with the information to be Nil'giccas book. In fact, I have to assume that everything transpired exactly as Kellhus planned with Mimara and Achamian being the necessary pawns for reliving Nil'giccas memories. A further suggestion would be that Kellhus required Nil'giccas to regain his memories in order to ensure that Achamian knew the true state of affairs in Ishterebinth and to ensure that Achamian survived Wutteat and continued to Ishual - though, the latter might simply be a correspondence of cause for Kellhus.

I would say that your statement remains correct, though, Triskele, and at the end of WLW the Nonmen are waiting to betray either side.

I still suggest that the biggest instance for conflict would be if Achamian walked into Ishterebinth as he is now wearing Nil'giccas armour and carries his Qirri.

Also, I still very much wonder at the relationship between the Gods and the Nonmen. Sorweel represents an interesting crux so long as Yatwer protects and moves him.

[Sci-2]

You're making a false comparison. A random person in the real world and a random character in Earwa have the same amount of weight where their opinions on the morality of their respective universes are concerned (very little). The difference is that Scott not just some guy in Earwa. For all intents and purposes, he is God. Nothing happens there that he didn't think or create.

So when he lays down the rules for his universe, I believe him. Just like, if God manifested before me, and he could prove he was God, and he told me that homosexual sex would damn me, I'd believe it.

I think this also notes something - that morality is, in a weird way, amoral like physics or even immoral. That women are lesser in Earwa does is not justification, rather it is Sisyphean tragedy. The same that gay sex damning someone in our universe would be - it would indicate an insane or at least irrational God.

[Curethan]

So, some new thoughts and speculations for those who care.

Kellhus has been outside, and the nonman emissary voices concern that he might have been replaced by a ciphrang. Then we add RSB's 'angelic' ciphrang bombshell.

I think that it's safe to assume that Kellhus knows everything about Earwan metaphysics that Bakker has fleshed out. I wonder if he tracked down these 'anphrangers'? It would make sense that he would go 'outside' if the anphrangers can't be summoned and he wants to dominate them or something.

*crackpot* Is Kellhus now possessed by an angelic ciphrang?

Next, firewatching. Seems like a 'new' branch of sorcery as Kellhus seems confident that his schoolmen and the consult will be unable to guess that he has this ability. Something else he learned outside perhaps? It sounds awfully like the method Husyelt probably employed to communicate with Angrashael; I'll lay money down that he can actually converse with non-sorcerers via this technique if he wants to - just the kind of xanatos tool Kellhus would need and devise.

No speculation on Kellhus' probable plan to leave Proyas in charge of the ordeal? It seems like the most prominent reason for all the Kellhus/Proyas interactions is foreshadowing him leaving/faking death/ actually dying and re-uniting Proyas and Akka (well, that and some typically obtuse infodumps).

Looking at the positioning of the players at the end of WLW, I think Kellhus might head to Ishterberinth (ninja counter espionage or ninja diplomacy) and/or Ishual (gotta have some plans for Mim and Akka).

I think the Ishterberinth situation requires direct manipulations, it's just too complex to simply throw in three of his most volatile 'pieces' and expect a defined result out of whatever mess eventuates.

Now that Cleric and Akka have 'opened' the coffers, I think that Kellhus will likely need to stop by there to pick up whatever he wanted from them.

Ishual is just too open ended to speculate what will happen there next, only Kellhus' conversations with Proyas suggest that he might bring Akka in soon.

Something else that occured to me recently. I was thinking on what caused Kellhus to go 'insane'. His convo with Moenghus explicitly reveals that he believes he is more than dunyain, something that is indirectly demonstrated several times in the second half of PoN. What drove him to this conclusion, I wondered.

Looking at the course of his manipulations, we can see that he almost always uses the 'truth' to manipulate. This is the dunyain way. Rather than fabricating lies, they present the truth in such a frame as to actualize their goals. However there are a few times when Kellhus must fabricate lies (to cover his origins, to try and produce an arbitrary result etc). And through no intention of his, these lies turn into criticaly important truths.

He says he is a prince of Atrithau, summoned by dreams of war. Turns out (as an Anasurimbor) this is true.

He makes up a spurious prophecy for Saubon which comes true.

Whenever he makes a mistake or must gamble on chance, shit works out to his benefit. He believes (as a dunyain) he has screwed up by not killing Cnaiur (a judgement backed up by Cnaiur's defection to the consult and the info he supplies them), but when the probabilty trance fails and he is on the circumfix it is only through Cnaiur's actions that he is saved.

I'm sure there are other reasons for Kellhus believing himself a prophet, but those are the only ones that occur to me atm.

What is the current concensus anyway? I wouldn't mind a poll where we could pose some options like;

• Kellhus is a prophet.
  
• Kellhus thinks he is a prophet but is a dick.
  
• Kellhus is bent on world domination and is lying about the prophet shtick.
  
• Kellhus is Mekkeretrig.
  
• Kellhus is a ciphrang.
  
• Kellhus thinks he is a prophet but is the no-god.
  
• Kellhus wants to be the no-god.
  

etc

[Curethan]

Well, I was suggesting that Kellhus thinks he has something like the white luck. But more like communication - see the part where he's talking to the world and he decides to kill Moe based on a twig that catches in his sandle.

[Sci-2]

Kellhus is still himself, as confirmed by the Nonman touch, but he has been changed by the Outside - even more so than his previous delusions/revelations about being a Prophet.

At the end of TTT, I don't know if Kellhus actually thinks of himself as a prophet, just that there is more to reality than what the Dunyain thought could handle. It is interesting that Kellhus distrusts his father precisely because Moe will see himself as damned and thus seek to close the world. Kellhus has either found a way to avoid his own damnation or is willing to damn himself to save the world from the Consult.

It is hard for me to believe that Kellhus accepts his damnation. I think he has grasped the God, as in it is the sum of subjective experiences on Earwa through time. How he will utilize this knowledge to rewrite reality is unclear to me. The world might have to have its objectivity softened for his miracle to work, in the same way that without Hell the Tear of God would not have awoken in Mimara's hand.

Kellhus might someone the No-God but having grasped what it represents he may use its rise to enact some greater plan to rewrite reality in his image. What is also interesting is that IF Kellhus has honestly walked outside, why didn't the gods snatch him then? If Yatwer is a real, sentient singular entity and a goddess to boot, why didn't she confront Kellhus when he walked through Her place of power?

My biggest concern is whatever happens it is clearly rooted in the information we have been given up till now. If UC introduces all kinds of new metaphysical rules that Kellhus can exploit I'll be annoyed.

[Curethan]

Kellhus is still himself, as confirmed by the Nonman touch, but he has been changed by the Outside - even more so than his previous delusions/revelations about being a Prophet.

Well, maybe he is an angelic ciphrang possessing Kellhus' physical body or some such work around that inhibits whatever sense the nonman was attempting to exploit. But probly not, just putting that out there.

It's more interesting to me that the existence of angelic ciphrang and the like presents some other motivations for Kellhus' probable sojourn 'outside' than just exploration.

At the end of TTT, I don't know if Kellhus actually thinks of himself as a prophet, just that there is more to reality than what the Dunyain thought could handle. It is interesting that Kellhus distrusts his father precisely because Moe will see himself as damned and thus seek to close the world. Kellhus has either found a way to avoid his own damnation or is willing to damn himself to save the world from the Consult.

By his own assertion, Kellhus is more than dunyain. I read that in the same way that dunyain are more than the worldborn. Whether that is one of the delusions of the 3pound brain that Bakker so loves is debatable, but from the confrontation between the two dunyain it seems fair to say that Kellhus believes it, because there is no point in straight up lies between dunyain. They either disemble or refuse to answer altogether. The reasons Kellhus gives for killing Moenghus aren't absolutes, they are just possiblities from the TFT probability trance. He has already decided to kill Moe because of the twig (one branch is dead, the other green and sprouting).

It is hard for me to believe that Kellhus accepts his damnation. I think he has grasped the God, as in it is the sum of subjective experiences on Earwa through time. How he will utilize this knowledge to rewrite reality is unclear to me. The world might have to have its objectivity softened for his miracle to work, in the same way that without Hell the Tear of God would not have awoken in Mimara's hand.

Kellhus might someone the No-God but having grasped what it represents he may use its rise to enact some greater plan to rewrite reality in his image. What is also interesting is that IF Kellhus has honestly walked outside, why didn't the gods snatch him then? If Yatwer is a real, sentient singular entity and a goddess to boot, why didn't she confront Kellhus when he walked through Her place of power?

My biggest concern is whatever happens it is clearly rooted in the information we have been given up till now. If UC introduces all kinds of new metaphysical rules that Kellhus can exploit I'll be annoyed.

Only thing I can address out of these ideas is that the outside is described as comprised of layers wherein the major agencies control mini-dimensions that obey their subjective desires. (see TTT glossary entry on the outside) Kellhus would avoid such pocket realities like the plague. He had to have a clear idea of how things are structured there from Iyokus.

Regarding your last point, seeing how Kellhus is already using erm ... 'god magic' (the fire watching) you might wanna start practicing your annoyed face. ;)

[Happy Ent]

In fact, I have to assume that everything transpired exactly as Kellhus planned with Mimara and Achamian being the necessary pawns for reliving Nil'giccas memories.

But that was not the point.

The point was to make Achamian and Mimara wander through the Mop. The presence of the nubile woman served as a catalyst to wake up the dormant sentient arborealities. Achamian’s constant hatred of the Consult served as a spiritual focus, enough to unite them.

Remember, the Holy War is a distraction. Its primary objective is to lure the Sranc and other Consultian creatures out of the Mop, denying Golgotterath its eyes. (There is even a skin spy in the plot to show us that this is exactly what happens. He follows the Skin Eaters, abandoning his watch on the looming green threat.)

While everybody’s attention now is in the North (including the reader’s!), the trees slowly uproot at the entire fucking forest starts its trek towards the Ark.

This is also why Bakker hasn’t yet given us the name of the 3rd trilogy. It’s a huge spoiler.

Mopmoot. Three books.

(i) The Barkness that Comes Before.

(ii) The Warrior Willows.

(iii) Schoolgirls from High Ainon. (The Consult is defeated already in the 2nd volume, so this one is mostly about the parties.)

[lokisnow]

Real life Kellhus, at least in terms of hearing and mental control over aural perceptions.

http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2011/jul/26/4-track-mind/

This, to me, is crazy, because some of Kellhus' abilities, like hearing the diffrences in heartbeats from a hundred yards away always seemed so absurd to me, and then there's a genetic sport out there that can accomplish this sort of fine control over how he hears music. Guess Kell's that much more real than I thought.

***

and just to add to oddness factor of listening to two Bakker related science things in one day, scientists can put a teensy tiny fibre optic thread through the brain of a living mouse into the basal ganglia (deep inside the brain), shine a light through that thread and completely turn off the ability of the mouse to control its own body/muscles.

http://www.radiolab.org/blogs/radiolab-blog/2011/aug/09/damn-it-basal-ganglia/

Neuropath interrogation hear we come. If we're willing to torture with sensory deprivation, it's only a silly little step to torture with depriving someone of their sense of self by turning off their ability to control their own body. it's a bit on the lobotomy side, but it's only an ickle-little ole wire, not like hacking out great chunks of the brain, just drill a small hole, thread the wire in to the terrorist basal ganglia and voila, suddenly, we get answers and they get their body back. :-p

Next step, slipping said wire into the part of the brain that lets you lie, and turning it off, then just ask the subject questions and your answers are truthful because you've incapacitated their ability to deceive.

[Sci-2]

Man, I really wish the DC reboot had HE writing Superman and now Swamp Thing.

[Screaming Turkey]

Isn't it obvious by this point that Kellhus is just a projection of Achamian's personality? God damn, I thought that was pretty damn evident.

[Lady Nerevar]

I've not read the previous 5 threads, so forgive me if this is a repeat, but has the possibility of the gods (Yatwer et al.) are Inchoroi been brought forward? :dunno: I can't say that I remember all the metaphysics off hand, but I can't recall anything that explicitly contradicts the possibility.

[Sci-2]

Gods as Inchoroi - Do you mean they are Inchoroi hanging out in the Outside or pretending to be Inchoroi? Out of curiosity what makes you think this?

I'm assuming that you mean the latter, as if Inchoroi found a way to become gods the Consult would be pointless, but yeah it is possible that they are pulling Sorweel's leg at least. The White Luck Warrior, however, seems to be a legitimate force of the divine, but I suppose with a suitable application of magic he might be created by a combination of sorcery and Tekne?

Guess it is hard for me to accept this possibility, would have to go back and see if any text invalidates it though.

[Lady Nerevar]

The former, I think. The gods and Inchoroi are the same 'race' of beings, one currently in Earwa and the other [still] in the Outside, ruling as gods.

I don't have my books with me, so this is all going from memory. For one, I can't recall where the Inchies are stated to be from, but that ultimately shouldn't matter.

We know that the Inchoroi came somewhere other than the current planet, crashlanding a spaceship and bringing technology that is beyond men and nonmen. We know that they have an intimate understanding (better than everyone else's? Does anyone else really recognize the absolute certainty of damnation?) of the metaphysics of the universe. They are able to modify themselves and others, and create new lifeforms. They either originated in the outside or passed through it during their travels, gaining personal knowledge of God and damnation. They are also known for manipulating man and his religion. We also know that the gods aren't omnipotent, and they don't seem to actually influence the world much (with the exception of the creation of the WLW).

Those that did not crashland in Earwa are left on the Outside, and, between their science and any natural effects that the Outside may have, they are able to set themselves up as powerful, supernatural beings. This either happens on purpose (their attempt to save/use human souls that bind themselves to them?) or is a byproduct of their power and human inability to comprehend it (advanced genetic engineering creating new species, weapons of light? Sounds pretty godly). A race that sets themselves up as gods are exactly the sort of people who would think themselves above morality (like Serwa and Moegnus). They would also be uber-damned, because they don't merely speaking with god's voice (sorcery) but for pretending to be gods and usurp His authority.

So, in other words, gods aren't Gods, but rather extraterrestrials who are viewed by humans as gods because of their power/knowledge and man's inability to reconcile it with his reality.

Excuse the sloppiness.

Out of curiosity what makes you think this?

Reading about Bakker and the major forthcoming revelations about the nature of the world, mostly. They're known for manipulating cultures, and the Tusk is their thing, so it didn't seem entirely out of the question. Lurking in this thread since before reading the books and never contributing, and a wee bit of esoteric Elder Scrolls mythology (god-planets and the Adamantia), also helped out.

[Kalbear]

We know that the Inchoroi came somewhere other than the current planet, crashlanding a spaceship and bringing technology that is beyond men and nonmen. We know that they have an intimate understanding (better than everyone else's? Does anyone else really recognize the absolute certainty of damnation?) of the metaphysics of the universe.

Yes. The Nonmen absolutely understand damnation and are likely the folks who taught the Inchies about it. The Consult also understand damnation fairly well. And if Wutteat is correct, the inchies have been fucking up the damnation thing on world after world, not getting it right over and over.

I hope that Bakker doesn't make the Gods into inchies. For starters, it makes no sense why the inchies would fight damnation, since all they'd have happen is they'd go and hang out with other freaks like themselves. Mostly, it goes completely away from the central tenet of the series: what if morality was objective and not subjective? What if moral rules were as unyielding and measurable as physical rules? That's the basis for a lot of the story and concept, and having the Gods just be aliens and have this be a rudimentary sci-fi tale from the original Star Trek would rip the heart out of that thought.

[Lady Nerevar]

Yes. The Nonmen absolutely understand damnation and are likely the folks who taught the Inchies about it.

I was under the impression that the Inchies had tried their extermination campaign on mortals on other planets already, implying that they knew about damnation before (unless they were killing for fun or something).

That's the basis for a lot of the story and concept, and having the Gods just be aliens and have this be a rudimentary sci-fi tale from the original Star Trek would rip the heart out of that thought.

Eh, not really, at least to me. Morality is determined by God, as I understand it, and we already know that the gods don't always know/understand the supreme will of God. The gods don't interact with the God, and don't have a bearing on morality and its absoluteness. I can understand not liking the theory (I don't think I do myself), but I don't think that it would ruin the theme.

[Kalbear]

I was under the impression that the Inchies had tried their extermination campaign on mortals on other planets already, implying that they knew about damnation before (unless they were killing for fun or something).

They did, but it never worked. They didn't understand how the rules worked about damnation until they invented the No-God. They thought that killing enough people would seal off the Outside - but that never actually worked. Unless Earwa is special or the last place, it's clear that the Inchies got it fundamentally wrong.

Eh, not really, at least to me. Morality is determined by God, as I understand it, and we already know that the gods don't always know/understand the supreme will of God. The gods don't interact with the God, and don't have a bearing on morality and its absoluteness. I can understand not liking the theory (I don't think I do myself), but I don't think that it would ruin the theme.

Morality and damnation go hand in hand though. if the Outside isn't damnation but is just a wacky dimension with alien beings, what does that say about morality? Not only does it put a specific viewpoint on the Gods themselves which goes against the theme it reduces what morality and damnation are; in that case damnation is apparently a retirement home for powerful Inchies.

Also, I don't think Morality is determined by God. It's not a decision that anyone has made. It's determined by God the same way that atomic weights are. It's a side effect of the universe. For that matter, I think that's how you can describe God; God is a side effect of the universe having objective morality. The objective morality part came first. In that respect I don't think there is a 'God' like we think about it, and God is simply the scales that determine damnation or salvation using the weights of the universe.

[Grack21]

What is the current concensus anyway? I wouldn't mind a poll where we could pose some options like;

• Kellhus is a prophet.
  
• Kellhus thinks he is a prophet but is a dick.
  
• Kellhus is bent on world domination and is lying about the prophet shtick.
  
• Kellhus is Mekkeretrig.
  
• Kellhus is a ciphrang.
  
• Kellhus thinks he is a prophet but is the no-god.
  
• Kellhus wants to be the no-god.
  

etc

Pretty sure no matter how you look at it, Kellhus is a dick. :P