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White-Luck Warrior VI


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I agree with Happy Ent. Arguing with this lady is like arguing with Rush Limbaugh. Facts don't matter nor does content. The only desire is to slander. The only regret for me is waisting my time reading what that troll had to say.

Back to the real topic. What happens in the next book when Fanayal takes the capital city and is forced to contend with Yatwer's White-Luck warrior and Psatma. It appears that the goddess has designs for destroying the capital.

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Yeah, I can't tell if this is real or not. I still wish Bakker had used a female pen name, I wonder if Prince of Nothing would be speculative fiction's version of Hand Maiden's tale...which, you know, wasn't a genre novel. At all.

Heh, I'm not sure that would have gone down to well TBH. Masking his identity on this board didn't exactly endear Scott to many readers and I doubt a gender change would have fared any better.

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Back to the real topic. What happens in the next book when Fanayal takes the capital city and is forced to contend with Yatwer's White-Luck warrior and Psatma. It appears that the goddess has designs for destroying the capital.

From the dialogues between Psatma, Meppa and Fanayal I surmised that Yatwer is pretty much leading a godly coalition that desires only blood and war in the place of the new empire.

Fanayal is apparently the instrument of one of the other gods;

"He has been annointed!" she cackled. "But not by whom you think!"

He and his army are simply doing their part, they just don't know it. The more interesting question lies with how Zeum will fare in their alliance.

I think there is a significant timeskip between Malowebi's recommendation of the alliance and the murder of Uncle Holy in Mommen.

The Zeum are either the besiegers or have linked up with Fanayal en route.

They would likely have had forces prepared and poised for action whilst waiting for Malowebi's assesment - the stakes are pretty damn high after all, and Mbimayu sorcerous communcation is facilitated by artefacts, which may well negate the need for knowing the location of the person to be contacted.

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I see what you are saying in part Curethan, but I wonder how many of the other gods are with her. Also the wild card in this show down will be Ajokli(sp) He seems to have plans of his own. Also what of the solitary god, who is she/he really?

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Yeh, no idea really harrol. It's only suppostitions from hints.

Its also very interesting where the Narindar asks the WLW if he knows why Ajokli's cult is the only one condemned in the tusk.

It was that nugget (in part) that set me to speculate that the inchies wrote the tusk (which has since been confirmed). But RSB's comment implies that condemning and hunting down non-men was the only addition to existing religious tradition. Hints and obfuscations...

But yeh, I believe there is evidence of Ajokli meddling in the WLW's path, Kelmomas' activities and with Skarl and the Captain. We shall see.

I think that Kellhus was being pretty straightforward when he outlined the nature of God to Akka and that is also the solitary god.

All percieving and omnipresent but unaware of its own existence.

Discrete systems and some function of handling time in a sequential manner are neccesary for a sense of identity, and all souled agency seem to possess that in Bakkerworld.

So yeh, the hundred gods and humans are (in some way) splinters of the solitary god that can apprehend themselves.

Which makes the solitary god the gaps between the gods, pretty much.

And the no-god functions as the polar opposite of the god, thus negating it and the connection between souls/agencies/whatever.

So I don't think the solitary god can take any action in Earwa except where there are souled identies that really can percieve his/her/its existence (like Fane and maybe Ajokli, Kellhus and/or Meppa).

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I am new to the forum, and I think I may have missed something along the way. Where was it confirmed that the Inchoroi wrote the Tusk?

In an interview that Bakker did with some of the fantasy bloggers (if that's the correct term), I personally saw it on pat's fantasy hotlist, I believe he (Pat's a he right?) worked together with another couple of people.

It is in part 2 of the latest interview with Pat.

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Main bit of feedback after wrapping this one up is that there were far too many soapbox moments with characters pontificating about stuff they've already been going on about in the series. To much in the way of introspection and goodkindesque speeches.

This criticism aside enjoyed the stories progress, said crusade seems to be divided in a similar way to the last books. Nonman dragon shenanigans were great to take in as well.

Regarding the dune comparison above I'm more finding similarity to god emporer than anything else right now.

Also glad to see plenty of reasons for more pseudofeminist/white knight anger with this book, I don't think said anger is justified of course.

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This is great news, like one reader of his blog post commented, the TTT appendix is a gold mine of info that i regularly go digging through.

It has numerous tales contained therein, and i cant wait for him to deliver them :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

You should check out the wiki linked above. It's got a great timeline that includes all of the info from TTT glossary in chronological order. (mind you, there are a couple of syntactic errors)


Atrocity Tales ... Something easier to recommend.

lol, Mr Irony Pants

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Be forewarned that all my spoilers are for aspects of Frank Herbert's Dune Saga.

I feel like I've been absent recently.

However, as life allows, I'm back. And hopefully, I can mitigate this deviant conversation about Bakker's motivations and personality. Begin chomping at the Second Apocalypse bit again.

I just reread some WLW and TTT Appendix for ideas on how to begin but, I think, in order to honor the nature of the forum I should just let my curiosity guide this. Perhaps, it will broach or precipitate some untouched speculation.

The Traveler from the Prologue, Letter to the Exalt-Minister and the Ministrate:

It does me good remembering to envision The Aspect-Emperor as one book that happens to be separated into three parts - same with The Prince of Nothing. To follow in vein of the original trilogy, I would hazard that these initial scenes in The Judging Eye will have contextual relevance to the conclusion of The Aspect-Emperor in The Unholy Consult, which should hopefully satisfy these specific questions.

Who is Traveler?

Who wrote the Letter to the Exalt-Minister, who I assume is Phinersa?

What role has the Ministrate played, if any, in the defense or collapse of the New Empire?

I find it hard to believe that the Ministrate, whom obviously managed to collect and destroy many of Achamian's Compendiums, have done nothing at all in these troubled times. Are they Kellhus' personal faction within the New Empire?

Meppa, Fanayal, and Malowebi:

Ambiguity aside, it seems that the Fanim have succeeded in arriving to and beginning the siege of Momemn at the end of the White-Luck Warrior.

Now, I have strong, strong conviction concerning Meppa and the return of Moenghus the Elder. This is something I might have ambitiously debated against not a couple months ago but having now read much of the Frank Herbert Dune Saga, I'm convinced that Moenghus is Meppa - though, my second best theory remains that Meppa is a Cishaurim Moenghus used neuropuncture on to unlock the Faith Powers. Meppa should not only be the Last but the Strongest Cishaurim.

However, the existing dune parallels are simply too great to ignore:

Paul Muad'dib finds that his vision of the future corresponds exactly with unfolding reality after he is blinded. Moenghus does not wear his snakes when he meets Kellhus and the description of Kellhus' perspective on his father is almost an exact inversion of Paul Maud'dib's internal perspective of how others see him as he navigates his trance vision.

Not to mention, that Moenghus outright lies to Kellhus within their conversation telling Kellhus that the Thought failed him after Kellhus' circumfixion then goes on to narrate events after that as well as continue walking the Kyudean Mansion with Kellhus snakeless.

In Children of Dune, Paul Maud'dib returns to his son's empire as the blind Preacher to give sermons in the Capital.

In the Unholy Consult will we see Meppa undermine Kellhus' empire with proud speeches?

Regardless, even just stating the facts helps in these speculations.

Meppa is the Last Cishaurim, champion of the Solitary God, whose Faith Powers leave no mark.

Fanayal is anointed.

My personal bet on the latter is Gilgaol.

A big question on everyone's mind is Zuem and Malowebi.

What will Zuem do? Only scant months have passed since Malowebi's final POV communique with Zuem and Maithanet's assasination. Is this enough time for Zuem itself to join Fanayal's army? Does Malowebi command Zuemi troops? Is he a lone Schoolman or part of a retinue?

Psatma, The White-Luck Warrior, and the Gods:

Last one first.

It's been my personal interpretation that the Yatwerian plot-line, aside from serving as a vehicle for Kelmomas' debauchery, has been specifically necessitated by the need for the Gods, as in all of them, to join in.

A thought experiment, as much of this is not founded in evidence:

We now know that there are angelic Ciphrang. Apparently, the Gods are renegade demons of the Solitary God. Or pieces of the God. Or shattered pieces of the God. So the Solitary God could be God, the blank state of existence. Ciphrang are angels, fallen or otherwise?

Perhaps, while removing the Anasurimbors being key, the Gods wanted Maithanet killed first. It certainly seems that way to me. He was a fulcrum of Earwa’s social economy, the nail of the Inrithi belief in the Three Seas. Does Maithanet’s death allow for the Gods to now be involved at the level of Yatwer's agency - as she, apparently, had the largest following outside of strict Kellian Intrithism.

Will the Unholy Consult bring all the Gods into play? Bakker has said that the final book in the Aspect-Emperor represents a major information dump concerning the reality of Earwa, even a potential overload for us hardcores.

As for Psatma and the White-Luck Warrior.

Psatma seems convinced that Fanayal, and whoever has anointed him, incidentally achieves Yatwer's will. She is happy to be captured and happier still in Fanayal's choice in targets.

The White-Luck Warrior stands beside Esmenet, having convinced her to protect him and reward him. It seems to me he's been willed into the position of Holy Bodyguard.

These two Yatwerian allies stand on opposite sides of the Siege however.

What moves will the White-Luck Warrior make before he fulfills his destiny?

Is that future ordained?

Once again, personally, I'm convinced that everything unfolds according Kellhus' Thousandfold Thought. I also think that the White-Luck Warrior's visions can be true, that Kellhus and Esmenet may yet die, but it is a sacrifice, I believe, Kellhus is counting on.

In the God-Emperor of Dune, Leto II coordinates his enemies and necessitates the circumstances of his own assassination in order to fulfill the Golden Path and the survival of Humanity.

However, Bakker likes inversions so, perhaps, Kellhus does this for any number of reasons. To be revived as the No-God? To defect to the Consult, unbeknownst to the Ordeal? To infiltrate and undermine the Consult? To learn and re-perfect the Tekne and move the story into territory unimaginable? To provide the parallel of his circumfixion in Warrior-Prophet and provide the Ordeal with the conviction to survive the Sieges of Dagliash - they have to take the fortress and hold it a la Caraskand?

Will the White-Luck Warrior flee with Esmenet north somehow? In order to "protect her" and gain proximity to Kellhus?

Will Psatma and the White-Luck be reunited openly as Yatwer’s servants?

Esmenet and Kelmomas:

Despite the grand plans of empire, events in the Kellian Three-Seas have turned primarily on the Dunyanic version of the Oedipus complex. Everything Kelmomas has done has been to achieve Esmenet's affection and has been accomplished utilizing the breadth of his innate Dunyain abilities.

Samarmas' death. The assassination of Sharacinth, the Yatwerian Matriarch. Inrilatas' meeting with Maithanet and the circumstances precipitating his death at his Uncle's hands. Maithanet's Coup.

We've yet to have the reunion of these two characters since some periods of intense novelty and growth - doesn't always have to be positive - and I think the encounter is set to be explosive. Esemenet knows the truth of her child, whether she chooses to believe it or not, and Kelmomas is in full Inrilatas-style cannibalistic bloom. All while enduring the normal stresses of being besieged and managing the apparent state-sanctioned assassination of the Shriah and Imperial Custodian.

Can't wait.

Also, Kelmomas' involvement in everything seems to intrinsically mirror Ajolki's culmination in Earwa's Reality. Despite the fact that the Voice has most been referred to as Samarmas.

Possibilies seem to be:

The subjective experience of Dunyain genes and innate mentality.

An effect of Kellhus' Whelming.

Samarmas and Kelmomas actually shared one complete soul in two bodies and, now, one body.


Or any combination of therein?

Proyas and Iyokus:

For some reason, to me, these two men seem especially important in the unfolding march northward.

We've theorized here that Kellhus seems to be grooming Proyas for revelation. Proyas' role is to change and so Kellhus needs Proyas' perspective to change according to the needs of his Thousandfold Thought.

I've incorporated this into my mythic canon as further evidence of Kellhus plan to abandon the Great Ordeal. Also, for a reunion between Proyas and Achamian. Why else undermine Proyas' perspective of Achamian, redeeming the outcast Wizard in the General's eyes?

Iyokus, as well, remains the fulcrum for so many plots.

What is Chanv, if a drug apart from Qirri? Is it a byproduct of Inchoroi Grafting and responsible for their translucent skin, long-life, and intellect?

What is the true nature of the Daimos and how powerful is it really?

What do the Scarlet Spires truly know of the Outside and what is the extent knowledge within the Damnation Archives, the tales of the Damned?

Also, it seems from the time and myth accorded to him in the White-Luck Warrior and Kellhus' securing of Iyokus' support by way of Iyokus' Gift, that Iyokus has a major role to play? Will Kellhus have the Scarlet Spires drag Ciphrang from the Outside on masse in order to counter-balance the algebra of sorcery concerning the Consult Quya and Mangeacca Gnosis vs. Swayali Gnosis and combined Analogies?

Serwa, Moenghus and Sorweel:

Let's begin with the Grandmistress and something I've tried to stress but lacked the coherency to do so.

Serwa is half-Dunyain and dreams the Dreams. She is on her way to Ishterebinth, a place Seswatha has no doubt frequented with Nonmen he probably knew very intimately.

Does Kellhus suppose that these two capacities will allow Serwa to seal the relational breach within the Nonmen Mansion and unite them in support of Man?

As for Moenghus and Sorweel. What will the Nonmen make of Moenghus' true parentage? Is there a mechanism between the Nonmen and Yatwer? Does the Goddess actually want Sorweel within the Mansion rather than at Kellhus' side?

Achamian and Mimira:

I've invented possibilities for these two but I really don't see many.

We're left with the two at the final horizon from Ishual and seeing only blasted stone. I can only assume that they will proceed to explore the "ruins."

Ignoring the Dunyanic possiblities for a moment, assuming they find nothing, what do they do?

Does Achamian resort to desperation and drag Mimira before the Great Ordeal claiming her Judgement and demanding Kellhus be Seen? He was, after all, able to escort Xinemus to besieged Caraskand unnoticed through the Shadow Way.

Is Mimira the Warrior-Prophetess of the Aspect-Emperor trilogy? The new Truth?

Is Achamian Anagke’s champion?

Or are they intercepted by Sorweel, Serwa, and Moenghus on their way to Ishterebinth?

I had a stroke of genius while writing this but I can imagine a decent parallel of Helm's Deep. Achamian, wearing Nil'giccas armor, with Serwa, convinces the Nonmen over the course of the Unholy Consult to ride to the aide of the Ordeal and arrive only in time, the Ordeal having won Dagliash, but after they are hopelessly trapped within its walls...


The man himself.

I think the biggest question beyond his overall motivations is what happened with the Nonmen Embassy.

To which I theorize that Kellhus doesn't give two fucks what the Nonman are going to do, either because it doesn't matter or because he's convinced of their eventual decision.

Most importantly, in my mind, Kellhus absolutely knew that Cleric was Nil'giccas. Kellhus had to have provided Kosoter with enough valid information to be the Nonman King's elju. Kosoter had to have concrete knowledge in order to prepare the way for... what happened? Cleric remembering who he was in Sauglish at Achamian's side?

Other big questions for me are as follows.

Who are Kellhus' agents in the Three Seas? He clearly lied to Proyas, Maithanet, and Esmenet about ceasing communications within the New Empire. What Emperor wouldn't want to have a calculated part in the downfall of his own empire, if it was inevitable?

Has the Ministrate been operating in full order?

Why is eating Sranc a revelation and what does it have to do with Kellhus' plans?

Does Kellhus plan to use the Tekne?

Do Bakker's comments on Kellhus not being Dunyain have relevance? Does not being Dunyain mean that Kellhus has chosen himself another morality, another calculated philosophic structure to follow?


Sorcerous artifacts. We've seen a number of them. Sheara, Mimira's ensorcelled mail coat. A nameless dagger. The Skutiri. Wathi Doll. Agonic Collar. Worldhorn. Chorae.

How many more will we see and how crucial a role will they place in the future books?

Witchcraft and Folkloric Sorcery? Why and how do these differ from dominant sorceries of Earwa?

Where is the Heron Spear? Are there any other sci-fi equivalent Tekne artifacts missing?

Will we see more Benjuka?

I'm sure I'll think of more later. Theories, people. Speculate, damnit!

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Be forewarned that all my spoilers are for aspects of Frank Herbert's Dune Saga.

Interesting theories.

I've been very negative toward the Meppa = Moenghus theory in the past, but while re-reading WLW I'm resigned to Scott potentially going that route. The big difference is that Moe was weak in the Water while Meppa is a badass in that path. Perhaps Kellhus was wrong in stating that conclusion, we won't know until the next book. That said, there's something about Meppa; he's obviously 'flagged' in WLW (though I'm surprised RSB didn't include him in TJE).

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There were rumours. Fanayal has Cishaurim in the South.

I liked the idea someone pointed out about Moenghus losing his memory and his vestigial emotions having a larger effect because of that agnosia. He becomes ultimate Cishaurim because his Dunyain conditioning gets knocked out. Also, Bakker had said something on the old Three-Seas forums about wanted to include a passage about Moenghus having bronzed Maithanet in the desert sun over seasons of his life to hid his Norsirai heritage. Something could have easily happened to him like that in twenty years.

Dune Spoiler:

They don't recognize Paul Muad'dib after years in the desert for exactly that reason.

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One other possibility about Meppa/Moe comes from that crazy nut, Nerdanel. That Moe was deliberately obfuscating his power in the world, knowing that Kellhus could be a threat. That he has quite a bit of water and the Water doesn't come from pure emotion but from pure belief. That he was essentially lying.

And how would a Dunyain - even one as skilled as Kellhus - detect Moe as a liar? Heck, the guy doesn't even have eyes any more.

That being said, I'd be annoyed if that were the case. And the parallel isn't exactly clear here. Paul's plan and curse in Dune wasn't what Meppa's is, and Meppa is a tool, not the prophet. He's barely there and is ignored when he gives advice, and one might argue that his taking the empire over would be a pretty pointless thing on the face of global armageddon.

Ultimately I think that Mimara must factor into things far more than Madness gives thought about. One book is titled after her ability and she's named in a prophecy by the Consult and even protected by them. She is named Anasurimbor, even if she isn't a true blood. She can apparently bring God's view of the real world to banish the Outside's presence in it. (that's what I now think she did; much like the ghost of the deep brought the Outside into this world, she used the chorae to bring God's view of the world into this one and thus reverse the effect). I think she's going to be the semantic key to it all.

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