[ADWD SPOILERS] Tyrion's Intervention

[koststerg]

Hello everybody, first post here so be kind!

I finished the book some time ago so the details are not very clear but I think :

a) there was a letter of Varys - Illyrio that Griff reads and Tyrion does not get to see

B) when Tyrion is lost Griff gets mad rather (and he does not like Tyrion that much)

So I think that the letter instracted Griff to surrender Tyrion to Dany as a Lanister hostage - gift to do with him whatever she liked (and not as a Hand candidate). Griff fears himself that the Golden Company might not be enough to please her (he doesn't know her dire situation), is not sure they can convince her to return to Westeros and might even plan to use Tyrion to wake her feelings of revenge.

Tyrion suspects this from the begining and is convinced when he sees how mad Griff gets when he is lost.

So he realises that either he escapes and finds his own way to Dany (meeting her in his own terms and under conditions he controls bearing his own gifts to her - as it seems to happen in the end) or he convinces them that they don't need her (that is his bait) so that he would return to Westeros without being presented to her as a gift. Don't forget that he still does not know Dany and her in general forgiving character and it is resonable to fear being presented as the kinslayer Lannister. Actually the loss of Tyrion might be an additionalr reason why Griff does not feel cofident enough to meet Dany.

This should mean the Tyrion giving his advice does not have Dany's or Aegon's interests in mind but only his own (which is the most expected of him :drunk: )

(Forgive any mistakes, not my native language)

[The Sleeper]

I think Tyrion gave sound advice to Aegon but for his own benefit.

At this point he expected to be delivered to Daenerys with execution being a very likely outcome. On the other hand going back to Westeros would put him back in the game and he could expect to supplant JC as Aegon's main advisor as he was much more knowledgeable in the current political situation than JC whose been an exile for more than a decade.

On some of the other points that have been made here.

I don't think Dany needed military rescue. The Yunkai'i fielded about 5000 troops during their first encounter and I can't see how they could have raised much more than that by now since all their slaves were freed. Even if we assume that their combined strength with their allies is 30000-40000 Dani can actually match that in numbers and she has Unsullied. Dani's problem was internal dissent and unwillingness to go to war. Tyrion and Jorah see the slaver's army and there is no question in their minds that the slavers are going to crushed.

[GreenHand]

Hello everybody, first post here so be kind!

I finished the book some time ago so the details are not very clear but I think :

a) there was a letter of Varys - Illyrio that Griff reads and Tyrion does not get to see

when Tyrion is lost Griff gets mad rather (and he does not like Tyrion that much)

So I think that the letter instracted Griff to surrender Tyrion to Dany as a Lanister hostage - gift to do with him whatever she liked (and not as a Hand candidate). Griff fears himself that the Golden Company might not be enough to please her (he doesn't know her dire situation), is not sure they can convince her to return to Westeros and might even plan to use Tyrion to wake her feelings of revenge.

Tyrion suspects this from the begining and is convinced when he sees how mad Griff gets when he is lost.

So he realises that either he escapes and finds his own way to Dany (meeting her in his own terms and under conditions he controls bearing his own gifts to her - as it seems to happen in the end) or he convinces them that they don't need her (that is his bait) so that he would return to Westeros without being presented to her as a gift. Don't forget that he still does not know Dany and her in general forgiving character and it is resonable to fear being presented as the kinslayer Lannister. Actually the loss of Tyrion might be an additionalr reason why Griff does not feel cofident enough to meet Dany.

This should mean the Tyrion giving his advice does not have Dany's or Aegon's interests in mind but only his own (which is the most expected of him )

(Forgive any mistakes, not my native language)

Ah, very interesting Koststerg. Good catch/notion. I think this notion of your's might be just the thing to resolve much. Illyrio comments (& it's true) on how clever Tyrion is (though granted, it strongs Tyrions ego too). And Tyrion demonstrates his intellect several times. So it seem likely that they do value him for his intellect but Daenerys can still tap his advice and intellect as a prisoner (a prisoner that now hopes to adjust his predicament). And let's not forget that they don't simply take him to Daenerys as a dragon lore fundi... they get him write down everything he knows/can remember about dragons. They still have that and would have had that whatever happened to Tyrion.

In terms of helping or hindering Aegon: As I discussed above, I think there pros and cons, each with their unknowns, for going East and West. Tyrion may well have decided that going West helped Tyrion and wasn't necessarily a bad idea for Aegon (both courses having their respective validity). Tyrion is surprised that anyone turns down the possibility of Dragons. And all agree that 10 000 men is not enough (needs to rally allies).

[Winterfell is Burning]

A good theory, although if it's true is something that would obviously backfire because:

a- Tyrion was a child at the time of the sack, so he obviously had no responsability in the events, and Dany would see that;

b- Tyrion would be the world's worst hostage, since his family wants him dead.

so I'm not sure.

[Rheagar Prime]

Well as people have said it has its pros and cons, but it does seem to benefit tyrion more that he went west, I do think it was the right choice and the fact we know he is successful now simply shows that he will gain tha allies and support he needs, which will cause dany to want to ally with him.

[Abel]

so i know, and this is why i love grrms books, there`s always a plausible story arch behind.

but i want to go for the greater picture here.

tyrion is a player, of course. but not from the beginning and not because he chose so.

he never chose any position he was in. he just fell into them and always made his work pretty good, doesn`t matter what he did.

his part is always to disturb the plans the actual players made. always, always, always gets in the way.

he is the joker, he is the one always destroying the plan of the "gods" and the men, thereby moving the story in completly other directions.

remember his interference with jon? he changed him.

remember his first interference with tywin in the battle field? suddenly changed tywins plans and became hand.

remember his term when he was hand? he always interfed in cersei`s plans.

remember him killing tywin? completly interfered with his plans and what might have been the outcame given tywin would still be alive.

next one is aegon, or whoever he is. completly changed his story.

he is always the tip it needs to get the things going in the right direction.

but he is not a player with real long in the future planning strategies. he is adapting and that in the best way it probably is possible.

and he will destroy all the other plans the other "real" players made, too. (think on varys, surely he hasn`t planned to flee KL at this point)

think on LF plan, he thought he had a lot more time, but tyrion killed tywin moving the things faster.

that`s his point of being. being the joker, being the devastation it needs.

I´d love to see what he is going to do with martells plans..... in one single strike.

[Damar]

I figured Jon Connington went with the plan to sail west because he had Greyscale that could kill men fast and there were just too many unknowns involving Dany that could possibly delay the invasion by months or even years, and he simply he didn't have that time and just went "Fuck it, I don't care if we win or lose, I'll die at home."

[Julian Rayne]

I wonder if he plans to talk up Aegon to Danaerys if he gets the chance.

[Uncle Impe]

I have been puzzling over this particular question for a long time now and have heard all kinds of theories most of which dont make sense. " Tryion was trying this, he was trying that, he wanted to take over influence of Dany (yeah right, like some noseless dwarf is just going to march in front of the dragon queen just because he tricked yet another prince into going back to westeros and Dany would fall down at his little stunted feet and kiss them for he was so instrumental in dismissing a potential ally) so many silly theories it beggars belief that those offering them even bothered to read the book.

It is a perplexing question no less. But that may be because we have been thinking too hard. The answer may lie right in front of our noses.

Let me ask you this, How did Quentyne get his ride to Volantis? He tricked a sellsword company to take him and his men with them, pretending to be just another sellsword.

Well, Tyrion also wanted a means to go back to Westeros. Tyrion does not want a) to be yet another pawn in the Cyvasse game being played by Illyrio and Varys

B) I dont think he is really keen on meeting Dany in the first place. HELLOOO!!! His dad butchered the young queens entire family and put in power the "usurper" who has pursued her for her entire life.

He has already met and survived an encounter with Aegon. The boy didnt lop off his large head but rather accepted him into his company and even took to playing Cyvasse with him.

Why in the hell would Tyrion risk another meeting with a dragon wielding member of the family that his own helped to wipe out? Why not cut your losses and take the hand that you have been dealt. (or other wise keep the "dragon" that you have close to you)

Tyrion simply wanted to go back to Westeros with Aegon simple as that. So he had to "trick" him or set "the bait" and let the young prince bite and take him back to Westeros.

Remember, Tyrion is not afraid of Cersei. But he needs an army to take her on. He knows his uncle Kevan quite well and knows what a hopeless Regent Cersei is. He is probably quite sure that he can make aliances with several key houses back in Westeros that will entertain him just for the act of killing Tywin Lannister alone (and some for even poisoning Joffery)

The trick here was not getting Aegon to turn around and head back westeros. The trick was stopping him from meeting Dany at all and rendering his mental skills useless. (One with three dragons would have little use for a stunted, noseless dwarf for a side kick.) There is the reason why the words of the Targaryens were "Fire and Blood".

For 300 years they have solved all their problems with Dragons and war. NOt treaties, marriages (they married each other) or pacts.

If some one pissed them off they simply just saddled their dragons and roasted them nice and crispy.

Tyrion fully wanted to go back to westeros to defeat Cersei with the young gullible prince Aegon as his pawn and not that of Varys or Illyrio. What he told him was some what true. Meet your aunt as an equal and not a better. Dany would likely be hesistant to wage war against her own nephew even if he had a better claim to the throne. And Aegon being counselled by the wise Tryion would not seek to wage war against his Dragon aunt because he would lose not matter how large his army or how many alliances he had made in westeros before she arrived.

His plans simply got dashed when he ended up in a whore house and abducted by Ser Jorah Mormont!