(ADWD) Jon Snow: Is GRRM just playing with words?

[Winterfelon]

Well when Jon reads the letter you'll notice he gets stuck on the " bring me my bride" part. He repeats it three times , "my bride , bride , bride" . That means he was thinking ARYA , and how she is in danger. He might have acted in haste simply because he had enough of that idiot Ramsay , and he just snapped. Everyone has thier breaking point , and his love for his sister could have easily caused him to act irrationally.

True that good point. But then he has a two hour meeting which we don't see? :D

That's why I think Ramsay has eyes on the Wall and he knows what it will take to draw Jon out and thereafter what will happen to the Watch (assasination attempt or no).

Do we know if Ramsay knows anything of the relationship between Jon and Stannis? I forget...

[Dolorous J]

All they knew in the realm was that Jon was allowing Stannis to stay at the wall , not to what extent thier relationship was. I'm assuming what prompted the letter is that they captured Mance Rayder after his bride disappeared , and Ramsey automatically assumed it must be a conspiracy by Jon Snow .

The capturing of Mance is the only part of the letter that is true. There is no way they had crushed Stannis already , because he had gotten word of the Karstark conspiracy in time. The army that Ramsey crushed was probably Whoresbane Umber's host who was sitting outside the gates. Stannis is still safe in the town by the lake , I'm sure.

One thing is for sure : no way Jon can remain a member of the watch after this . I see him becoming the king of the wildlings .

[Winterfelon]

All they knew in the realm was that Jon was allowing Stannis to stay at the wall , not to what extent thier relationship was. I'm assuming what prompted the letter is that they captured Mance Rayder after his bride disappeared , and Ramsey automatically assumed it must be a conspiracy by Jon Snow .

The capturing of Mance is the only part of the letter that is true. There is no way they had crushed Stannis already , because he had gotten word of the Karstark conspiracy in time. The army that Ramsey crushed was probably Whoresbane Umber's host who was sitting outside the gates. Stannis is still safe in the town by the lake , I'm sure.

One thing is for sure : no way Jon can remain a member of the watch after this . I see him becoming the king of the wildlings .

Thanks. Yeah, I agree about the letter, but Jon's recklessness still troubles me.

I also think the Watch's existence is called into question, so may well be right. :thumbsup: you

[Dolorous J]

Thanks. Yeah, I agree about the letter, but Jon's recklessness still troubles me.

I also think the Watch's existence is called into question, so may well be right. :thumbsup: you

I agree , the watch may crumble completely .

The Wildlings have the watch surrounded on all sides , and when they see Jon get struck down ( thier only supporter and someone they respect) , a blood bath may ensue and the watch could be slaughtered.

Maybe that is what someone wanted ?? Could Mance and Melissandre conspired all along to take down the Watch ? and why ??

[Winterfelon]

I agree , the watch may crumble completely .

The Wildlings have the watch surrounded on all sides , and when they see Jon get struck down ( thier only supporter and someone they respect) , a blood bath may ensue and the watch could be slaughtered.

Maybe that is what someone wanted ?? Could Mance and Melissandre conspired all along to take down the Watch ? and why ??

Yeah - it's a monumentally stupid move by Marsh et al - UNLESS he has a backup plan or someone who does is pulling the strings (ie attacker-warg theorem etc).

Say it is Mance and/or Mel.

On one level, ridding themselves of the Watch (at least in its current form) actually makes sense because the 'Thennsion' (tm :P) between the wildlings and the NW is clearly counter-productive.

However, is it worth removing Jon to do it? That I'm not sure of considering the progress he's made. The only way that makes sense is if Mel knows that Jon is going to fulfil one of the prophecies so she just puts all the pices in place hoping to precipitate his rebirth. We know she's a bit crap on the vision thing so it;s a massive gamble.

Alternativley, we could be looking at Bloodraven pulling the strings - if we assume attacker-warg theorem. Now, we're not sure about his motivations yet, could be good, could be bad but it seems to me that he has more to gain potentially either way.

If he's on the side of the Seven Kingdoms, he potentially makes the 'new NW' a united force against the Others by cleaning out the divisive figure. If not, then he's destablised the situation enough that the Others can attack, and the time would be in the prologue, or the first chapter of the next book. :P

[Dolorous J]

5 years and we'll know :thumbsup:

[Miriamele]

If Jon is alive I can't see him leave the wall. He swore an oath and he takes it seriously even if it is difficult sometimes. The only way I see him leaving, if there is no Night's Watch and Wall anymore. The Others destroyed or not evil after all??

One kind of bittersweet ending I can imagine is, that he falls in love with Dany but he has to go back to reorganize the NW and Dany has to marry for the good of the realm. Maybe to YG if he lives and has Targ blood Blackfyre or Rhaegar's

[Winterfelon]

5 years and we'll know :thumbsup:

Need. To. Know. Now! :tantrum: :D

Last time I was this bad in was in 1999 when another George started revealing stuff. :P

[Envie]

Technically we only know about two stab wounds, one graze and one mystery attack. You can survive a LOT of stab wounds if they don't hit anything vital. People have survived way more than four.

This is true, but remember one of them went straight in his belly (the one that was 'smoking') no less. That's usually pretty fatal.

I do agree that Martin's playing with words much as he was in other cases we thought one thing was happening and it was actually another. That's the clever thing about using a POV approach. What one person sees or thinks is happening isn't always what's really going on.

Another spot I think he's playing with words in that scene is describing Jon looking down to see his wound 'smoking' (as I mentioned above)... now why would he use that word if something weird wasn't going on and it was in fact just a straightforward assassination attack? Smoking is a word one associates with burning, not with blood or body heat hitting cold air. That word would be 'steaming' ... and I fully believe Martin used this odd wordage on purpose. He rarely uses arbitrary descriptions without purpose.

[Purge]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see some assuming...Eddard and Lyaana are Jon's parents. Somewhere I read Ed had a baby by one of his captians daughter's. If this is so than Lyaana couldn't be his mother? If the baby was Jon. We also see Caitlyn in GoT say that Ed only had one affair on her...could there be another? I also see Mel figuring out that Jon may be AA since her fires show her Jon every time see asks to see Stannis as AA. If she figured this out along with the dark daggers she may be up to something hideous. Remember she left the "Town Hall" meeting early. I was also wondering if someone hadn't messed with his scabbard to keep him from getting his sword out and this is why the 1st attacker said "it wasn't me."???

[longlivestark]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see some assuming...Eddard and Lyaana are Jon's parents. Somewhere I read Ed had a baby by one of his captians daughter's. If this is so than Lyaana couldn't be his mother? If the baby was Jon. We also see Caitlyn in GoT say that Ed only had one affair on her...could there be another? I also see Mel figuring out that Jon may be AA since her fires show her Jon every time see asks to see Stannis as AA. If she figured this out along with the dark daggers she may be up to something hideous. Remember she left the "Town Hall" meeting early. I was also wondering if someone hadn't messed with his scabbard to keep him from getting his sword out and this is why the 1st attacker said "it wasn't me."???

Eddard and Lyanna are brother and sister, and Eddard claims to have only had one affair, but everyone guesses on who that was with because he never told anyone her name. Some say Wylla, some say Ashara, some say a fisherman's wife, and many fans say Ned never had an affair with anyone and Jon is the secret son of Lyanna and Rheager, so until GRRM finally decides to tell us...

[Purge]

As are Jaime and Cersi...But somewhere in DwD the story was told of Ed and a woman taking to each other after her father died???during Rob's Rebellion.

[longlivestark]

As are Jaime and Cersi...But somewhere in DwD the story was told of Ed and a woman taking to each other after her father died???during Rob's Rebellion.

A fisherman's wife who's husband died helping Eddard who was going to get back to the North to call his bannermen, but it is just a rumor, like Ashara and Wylla. Also Ned and Lyanna's relationship was NOT like Jaime and Cersei's, proof? How Ned reacted after discovering Jaime and Cersei's relationship.

[Purge]

Good Point!!

[Purge]

If it was true Jon was Lyanna's son than it puts a cramp in everything Caitlyn did.

[Purge]

By the way, does it say Jon received letter he was king of North anywhere. The letter Rob sent. They were looking for a way to get him off the wall. This could be the answer.

[Kalasin]

By the way, does it say Jon received letter he was king of North anywhere. The letter Rob sent. They were looking for a way to get him off the wall. This could be the answer.

He didn't send it to Jon. I'm pretty sure he sent a letter to Howland Reed, with messengers who have probably been waylaid due to the fighting in the Neck. So they would know about it and Greatjon and maybe a few other bannermen in captivity would know about it, but that's one of those seemingly forgotten "secrets" that may rear up again in the future. There's a lot of speculation about whether or not it's valid, and whether or not Jon would take it (particularly once he learns Bran and Rickon are alive), but right now it's languishing in obscurity.

[Dolorous J]

If Jon is alive I can't see him leave the wall. He swore an oath and he takes it seriously even if it is difficult sometimes. The only way I see him leaving, if there is no Night's Watch and Wall anymore. The Others destroyed or not evil after all??

One kind of bittersweet ending I can imagine is, that he falls in love with Dany but he has to go back to reorganize the NW and Dany has to marry for the good of the realm. Maybe to YG if he lives and has Targ blood Blackfyre or Rhaegar's

He can't stay at the wall now even if he wanted too. There's basically been a mutiny and he's been overthrown as lord commander on the grounds that he is a traitor to the realm by allowing wildlings through the gate, etc . His brothers hate him. They tried to assasinate him. How the hell do you see him returning??

He already admitted he was renouncing his vows when he said , " I won't make anyone else renounce thier vows , but I mean to go make Bolton answer for those words ".

His time in the watch is done. He's going to become the wildling king, I think.

[Bran the Builder]

Obviously nobody *really* believes Jon is dead/dead. It would just be infuriatingly bad story-telling (my opinion) and GRRM does seem to be foreshadowing with the ice cells in adwd etc. I think we are all expecting Jon to end up being more than what he seems, what that is (AA?) nobody really knows. But I think most of us can agree that *something* big could/should be coming with Jon and it will be the true definition of the word "epic".

I'm sorry, but I STRONGLY disagree. Every Jon fanboy would be infuriated if he was really dead. I bet some would even threaten to never read the series anymore. Most would complain about all the dialogue and intrigue invested in Jon was wasted. This would be on par with the red wedding and Ned's death I believe. We all believed him to be the hero. What better way to defy all fantasy norms by having him die before the last two books. Just my opinion.

[Captain Know]

This is true, but remember one of them went straight in his belly (the one that was 'smoking') no less. That's usually pretty fatal.

I do agree that Martin's playing with words much as he was in other cases we thought one thing was happening and it was actually another. That's the clever thing about using a POV approach. What one person sees or thinks is happening isn't always what's really going on.

Another spot I think he's playing with words in that scene is describing Jon looking down to see his wound 'smoking' (as I mentioned above)... now why would he use that word if something weird wasn't going on and it was in fact just a straightforward assassination attack? Smoking is a word one associates with burning, not with blood or body heat hitting cold air. That word would be 'steaming' ... and I fully believe Martin used this odd wordage on purpose. He rarely uses arbitrary descriptions without purpose.

I commented on the word, "smoking" as well on a different thread. GRRM is clever and doesn't just use words haphazardly. I agree, the proper -- even expected -- word would have been "steaming'. Wounds don't "smoke.". So, I see this as a clue to something supernatural happening. Given Mel's fire god influencing, then is it natural to think that there may be a link with the "smoke' and Mel's work.

The other thing which struck me in this event was Bowen Marsh being tearful when he stabs Jon, "for the Watch'. Why would he be crying? He liked Jon and felt remorse over something they felt politically had to be done? I doubt it. Most of the Night Watch are tough men who don't give a crap. It makes me wonder if the event was part of a bigger plan and that these men were recruited into it for this bigger scheme, or Marsh was being warged or magically manipulated into doing something he didn't want to do.

It all makes me think that something "big" is happening here and that Jon is going to "die' but will also survive. I can't see him turning into a wight, as there are no Others around to make that happen, but I can see Mel reviving him like Dondarrian, or even something bigger happening since Jon has be a major character in the book. Something like the AA returning. He will obviously be living within Ghost for a while. So, we know from Mel's fire vision that Jon doesn't die, as shes see's Jon, then Ghost, then Jon again.