(ADWD) Jon Snow: Is GRRM just playing with words?

[Valamway]

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't melisandre see in her fires Jon turn into a wolf then back into his original self??

perhaps thats foreshadowing Jon warging into ghost then when his body is healed warging back into his body??

[Kavel]

2 thoughts on Jon Snow's death:

1) What if his attackers were being "warged" by the shapechanger with the boar? There's that weird turn of phrase where the guy that first stabs him then drops the knife or something like that and backs away with his hands up, like he didn;t know what he was doing. I feel like we got a little more info on that skinchanger than was absolutely necessary, including his sinister little smile at Jon as the wildlings were being allowed through the wall. We've also been introduced to the concept of someone warging into another human via the Bran chapters and the prologue.

The motivation is where I'm lost. If it was part of a long con by Tormund, it wouldn't make much sense. Tormund is about to leave with the bulk of the Night's Watch for Hardhome. If he wanted to kill them, he could do it much easier along the way. If the wildlings just wanted to take over Castle Black or escape the NW, there's a thousand ways that could have been done easier.

My guess is that he's either got some hidden agenda with the remaining wildling guy roaming around (The Weeper, I think?) or else (drum roll please...) he's actually Orell, who has figured out some way to warg-hop to this guy.

2) If Jon is resurrected at the Wall, it could potentially strengthen his claim as AA. According to the prophecy, AA will be reborn in the place of smoke and salt. Didn't we get some bizarre throwaway line about how the cellars under the Wall were stockpiled with lots of salt during the discussion of astle Black's provisions?

[I hate Catelyn Stark!]

I think we have a good candidate for TWoW's dramatic final scene - Jon Snow rising again as AA, when the Others are attacking and all hope appears to be lost. It will be like Dany's dragons being born at the end of AGoT.

We've gone 2 books now without good conclusions. We need something big in the next one.

[David Selig]

This would be a terrible final scene, total cliche.

[benadgatemusic]

If "the fourth knife" were referring to a person instead of a literal knife, I think GRRM would have capitalized the words. It would have made it more obvious, but it would also be appropriate grammar. NOW the question is: Do we think GRRM is willing to sacrifice grammar rules to mislead his readers? :read:

[firestorm]

My apologies if this has been posted before --I looked through the thread on his death and didn't find this option (that I want to present) and I thought I would throw it out here.

Obviously nobody *really* believes Jon is dead/dead. It would just be infuriatingly bad story-telling (my opinion) and GRRM does seem to be foreshadowing with the ice cells in adwd etc. I think we are all expecting Jon to end up being more than what he seems, what that is (AA?) nobody really knows. But I think most of us can agree that *something* big could/should be coming with Jon and it will be the true definition of the word "epic".

My question: why does he have to die and go through a lengthy resurrection before becoming AA? (for example) Is it not possible that GRRM is playing with us a little bit when he says that "he never even felt the 4th knife" (don't have exact quote in-front of me). We, obviously, take that to mean that the 3rd stab killed him and therefore the dead wouldn't feel more mutilation.... but what if it means that something was reborn/awakened between the 3rd and 4th blow and the reason he didn't feel the 4th blow wasn't because he was dead, it was because he had already become immortal.

Maybe our favorite red hottie -as she witnesses the attack- casts a type of protection spell on him that would make him oblivious to knife wounds?

It seems to me that the question everyone is asking is, "Is Jon going to come back?" whereas my question is, "Is Jon really even dead?".

Thoughts?

Or we could simply realize that Thoros of Myr was not a powerful priest compared to Mel, and he was able to resurrect Dondarion multiple times.

[Zeke]

Let's compare two death scenes from the book.

From the Prologue:

That was his last thought as a man.

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake. Then he found himself rushing over moonlit snows with his packmates close behind him. Half the world was dark. One Eye, he knew. He bayed, and Sly and Stalker gave echo.

From Jon's last chapter:

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger's hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking."Ghost," he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end. When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

There are some strong parallels here: both men are skin changers, both have been seriously injured, both have an overwhelming sensation of cold and a thought of their primary or, in Jon's case, only warg animal (or whatever the eff the term might be). The scene from the prologue is not equivocal at all: Varamyr has died a "true death" and moved on to inhabit One Eye. The scene from Jon's last chapter is more equivocal but gives a strong reason to believe that, given all the parallels, much the same has happened to him.

I really have a hard time seeing it any other way.

[Black Crow]

Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't melisandre see in her fires Jon turn into a wolf then back into his original self??

perhaps thats foreshadowing Jon warging into ghost then when his body is healed warging back into his body??

Possibly, but then again he has been warging already so its more likely that she saw him do it in real time rather than in the future and was puzzled cos she hasn't encountered Wargs before.

[Black Crow]

My question: why does he have to die and go through a lengthy resurrection before becoming AA?

It seems to me that the question everyone is asking is, "Is Jon going to come back?" whereas my question is, "Is Jon really even dead?".

Thoughts?

The short answer is that he does not need to die; the prophecy is pretty explicit in stating that it is the drawing of the sword by the warrior which will metaphorically make him AA reborn. In none of the versions is a death required and as I keep pointing out Mel the Succubus has been promoting Stannis as AA without killing him off first.

[Dolorous J]

Or we could simply realize that Thoros of Myr was not a powerful priest compared to Mel, and he was able to resurrect Dondarion multiple times.

Who's to say she even needs resurrect him if the wounds are not immediately fatal ??

If he can stay alive for a short period of time , Melissandre can probably heal the wounds. We saw Moqorro heal an infected rotton hand of Victorian's , which would have been fatal without his help. Who's to say Melissandre can't use the same spell to heal Jon's stab wounds ?

[Dayne's Sword]

Hi guys first time back in a few years.

i went bat sh*t when Jon cashed his chips in. and from the looks of it a lot of other people did too. i strongly believe Jon is coming back after spending some time in Ghost. i have two main concerns with his "resurrection".

1. If he is brought back with the fire kiss. his body is going to in one bad state. granted not as bad as Beric but a bit mashed. for those who dont like Jon i expect it neither here nor there for me its just feels wrong. but then thats my opinion that Jon, Dany and Tyrion are the 3 main leads "heroes" of the saga.

2. uncat, ungregor, unberic, un whoever. In my opinion its getting (has gotten) very stale. for Cat and Beric i found it adding to the story. now its just cheap get out of jail card.

He may not even need resurrecting? our only facts are that he sustains a neck wound, a belly wound, and a stab wound between the shoulder blades. And one mystery fourth wound at least. Thats it. All of those wounds have been known to be both surviviable and mortal.

IMO his body is badly cut up and is bunged into the bowls of one of the linchpins of the world and healed up by its, and possibly Mel's magic. when his body has finished healing, prob at the end of the next book or in its second half, he wargs back in and does what needs to be done

Jon says to Sam i think at one point that the wall preserves. or does he just say the cold does? sorry im at work and dont have the books with me.

that fourth stab may have not even connected? how may assassins (senators) were there around him?

[Purge]

I may be wrong but I feel Jon's last chapter was very uncharacteristic of him. He always thought things thru befroe doing them, he went against the NW, which he had totally been against the whole series, and its like he couldn't believe the NW would attack him. They all hated him! It seemed like it was a last minute thought. I was disapointed with the last 1/3 of the book. Don't get me wrong I love GRRM's writing but it became more uncharacteristic of him the longer the book went.

[Winterfelon]

I may be wrong but I feel Jon's last chapter was very uncharacteristic of him. He always thought things thru befroe doing them, he went against the NW, which he had totally been against the whole series, and its like he couldn't believe the NW would attack him. They all hated him! It seemed like it was a last minute thought. I was disapointed with the last 1/3 of the book. Don't get me wrong I love GRRM's writing but it became more uncharacteristic of him the longer the book went.

That and taking the letter at face value is odd given that he's been Captain Awesome or rather Lord Commander Awesome for the rest of the book. There's the mysterious two hour meeting as well.

As others have said it's possible that he wargs into one of the dead bodies in the cells/A/N Other (dead body = no psyche to surplant) and then Mel glamours it to look like Jon.

Jon acts with uncharacteristic haste in that chapter, so I'm inclined to believe all is not as it seems.

[LordManderBlee]

I think that people are overlooking an obvious possibility, though it might be in a thread I missed. What if he warns into Ghost and doesn't die? Think about it, if a skin changer slips into a coma it's totally possible they would send their consciousness somewhere else for safekeeping while the body heals. That way we have Jon inside of Ghost for a while without any UnJon, his body won't have ever stopped breathing. We just have to wait for Mel or other doctor people to fix him up and then bam, Lord Snow is back as good as new

[Winterfelon]

I think that people are overlooking an obvious possibility, though it might be in a thread I missed. What if he warns into Ghost and doesn't die? Think about it, if a skin changer slips into a coma it's totally possible they would send their consciousness somewhere else for safekeeping while the body heals. That way we have Jon inside of Ghost for a while without any UnJon, his body won't have ever stopped breathing. We just have to wait for Mel or other doctor people to fix him up and then bam, Lord Snow is back as good as new

Yeah, it's an obvious one, trouble is GRRM doesn't seem to do obvious! :D

[Dayne's Sword]

Yeah, it's an obvious one, trouble is GRRM doesn't seem to do obvious! :D

This time i hope he does as the bringing back to life card has been used way too much in Thrones. he has done obvious. its just that quite often he throws a curve in to spice it up a bit.

[Thoheeks Bili]

What if, in that 2 hr meeting, a glamour was used on the Lord Commander ala Mance/Rattleshirt? :stunned:

I don't think Jon will "die"(i was pissed when i read the chapter though) and i surely think that Mel will be involved with his character.

It sure makes you want to read the next book though, doesn't it? :thumbsup:

[Winterfelon]

This time i hope he does as the bringing back to life card has been used way too much in Thrones. he has done obvious. its just that quite often he throws a curve in to spice it up a bit.

Indeed - I would have hoped for Jon to have had some more of issues resolved (ie parentage, and perhaps temporarily fix the NW pre Dany and Dragons vs the Others THEN he dies an ignominious death) then he could have died properly.

However as it is, it's just too soon. Like someone said in another thread it can't pan out like:

Sansa'Oh you know, I was chatting to LF and it turns out Jon's Mum was Lyanna - WTF LOLZ!'

surely :stunned:

[Dolorous J]

That and taking the letter at face value is odd given that he's been Captain Awesome or rather Lord Commander Awesome for the rest of the book. There's the mysterious two hour meeting as well.

As others have said it's possible that he wargs into one of the dead bodies in the cells/A/N Other (dead body = no psyche to surplant) and then Mel glamours it to look like Jon.

Jon acts with uncharacteristic haste in that chapter, so I'm inclined to believe all is not as it seems.

Well when Jon reads the letter you'll notice he gets stuck on the " bring me my bride" part. He repeats it three times , "my bride , bride , bride" . That means he was thinking ARYA , and how she is in danger. He might have acted in haste simply because he had enough of that idiot Ramsay , and he just snapped. Everyone has thier breaking point , and his love for his sister could have easily caused him to act irrationally.

[One Hand Clapping]

I think there is indeed a very high probability that Jon will warg into Ghost and then be somehow be resurrected by Melisandre - why else have the prologue and keep Mel at the Wall at all when she was clearly very much needed by Stannis on his death-march south (at the very least she'd have kept his bed warm)?

But I do now see it as at least a possibility that George needs to radically reduce his POVs and plotlines if he is to finish the series in two more books (and the HBO series makes that a much stronger imperative as its very hard to conceive that being dragged out to 7 or more seasons even if as I think is highly probable they can compress both AFFC and ADWD into season 4).

Really killing Jon would be as 'edgy' as you can get (take that Joss Whedon!) and means that the Wall can fall and you'll no longer need any POVs up there at all other than the soon-to-be-omniscient Bran.

Sure a lot of us would jump ship in disgust but he can avoid that until the last book by just making TWOW focused on the south and east rather than the north and making Jon's fate a lingering cliffhanger.

Ridiculous?

Well we have all just read a book where characters have cliffhangers resolved (or not resolved) that were set up two books and eleven years ago!