(ADWD) Jon Snow: Is GRRM just playing with words?

[the average Other]

you mean the one down in the crypts of winterfell !!

No, I mean BOTH!

:shocked:

:leaving:

[boojam]

I'm pretty sure he was just passing out/going into shock.

Yeah that's my take too, and then George cuts away.

Well George has 'cut away' before, remember the Hound was lying there asking Arya to put him out of his misery, she declined, figuring he would have a painful lingering death.

And then Sandor shows up again!

[Whatever]

He also references his burn-scarred hand. I wonder if that's why he had such issues drawing his sword...his hand seized up at the wrong moment.

mah, i don't think so. The issue is the sword that doesn't come out of the scabbard, not jon's hand. He CAN move his fingers, he just thinks they became "stiff and clumsy". Which could be another knife, or a spell, or the cold, the shock or whatever. I don't think it's because of his hand - jon's hand has healed, the ony reason why he moves his hand that way is a habit/ involuntary reflex. A little like arya champing her lip :D

Bowen Marsh et al. stand to lose a lot (i.e. their lives!) unless they succeeded in their plan. So they presumably didn't stop stabbing him after the 4th attempt unless they were certain that he was dead. Unless, of course, they were interrupted before they could finish the deed, but Ghost was locked away, the wildings were busy getting drunk, and I'm sure the conspirators made sure (unless they're complete idiots) that they picked a time and place where they could finish Jon off without likely interruption.

But they weren't alone in the yard. There was a mad giant, a dying knight and a lot of people, both wildlings and NW. I'm sure Tormund came out right after jon... it's unlikely that Bowen & Co had enough time to keep stabbing him

What if, and this would suck, if Jon dies. No warg, just dies. What then? Life would go on but the hope for the Starks would depend on Davos returning Rickon to lord Manderly. Sansa in the Vale, Arya coming out of her brain washing trance. and Tree boy Bran.

which is the main reason why i can't/don't wanna believe jon is dead. The thing is, if he's dead for good

1)his whole plotline has been kinda useless, like if GRRM killed dany at the end of storm, I mean, if jon's only use was to be a wall POV, we were fine - GOT, Storm and dance prologue + sam's storyline + davos pov of the battle of the wall + mel in book 5 (or even 3)

2)the starks are done. Sansa depends on littlefinger, bran is beyond the wall, arya can be as badass as she wants, but she's a 10 years old girl in another continent. davos will bring back rickon, who will be either a puppet lord or too young to be a major character anyway.

3) the situation on the wall gets even more messy. There is nobady to balance the situation between stannis's men, NW & free folk. Chaos, chaos, chaos. I could have seen jon dying for good at the end of storm, but not now. The situation would become impossible to handle, and the story will never be completed in 2 more books

it looks unfortunately like GRRM is pulling another Bran/Rickon/Theon/Davos/Brienne/Mance on us, which is starting to get old really fast. What really drew me to this series was that even major PoV characters could actually die, which certainly adds to the tensionIt becomes a 'boy who cried wolf' scenario after a while.

you know, i really hope this is not the time when GRRM decides to go back to the old ways killing off a major character

I had never given any thought to that phrase, you Starks are hard to kill. Perhaps there is some meaning to it like some of you have suggested.

...phrase said by jon to robb. He wasn't referring to himself like one of the "starks hard to kill". Good call anyway

[LittleDragon]

My first reaction about this during reading was that he hadn't felt the 4th cut because he died, but the disturbing element is the last sentence of the chapitre, that he still felt cold, so he can't be dead. Or can't be entirely dead. GRRM likes to play with us, actually only Prince Frog and Ned Stark are surelly died, all the others came back sooner or later, even "Ser Strong Robert" keeps walking... so why Jon should be really dead? My opinion that his hurts maybe are not so serious ones, so after a time he can come back, and in the meantime the Night Watch will realize that he was right. Jon's solutions were unusuals and he was between simple minded people who haven't realized that they were in special circumstances and old solutions, usual ways will not save them any more. I think it's quite reasonable to keep hope to see Jon coming back.

[Black Crow]

He was grazed once (no damage), stomach the 2nd time and between the shoulders is the 3rd. We don't know what the 4th was. Presumable he was face down in the snow when the 4th hit. A stomach and back wound might not hit any major organs. He's killed off enough of Ned's kids. I don't think Jon will die... but what form his future life will take remains to be seen.

We went through this pretty comprehensively on the last couple of pages of the "Sorcery" thread; all of Jon's wounds are survivable and the remark by GRRM you asked about in your following post was in answer to an interviewer enquiring as to why he had killed off Jon. GRRM's response was "You think he's dead do you?"

Jon therefore has a future and it aint going to involve fire magic from Mel the Succubus. Victarion's "cure" quite literally left him smoking hot, but all the dream/prophesying about Jon consistently stress the cold. In short he's the Ice, not the Fire.

[Miriel]

I would freaking love Jon as the new King of the wildlings. I did get the feeling that something was being set up between Jon and Val. As for the men, he already earned their respect because they were all willing to go ride with him on Ramsay, even Tormund approved of his speech and told him he just had to drink with them to seal the deal.

If Jon ends up the Wildling King then Tormund's 'we'll make a wildling of you yet" line to Jon will be some awesome foreshadowing...

[Miriel]

never mind , double post, sorry ...

[Ser Reptitious]

Laurie,

Also - can you link this EW comment that you're referring to? I've seen a few people reference it, but I don't know what interview/comments people are referring to :(

Here you go: http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/07/21/dance-with-dragons-shocking-twist-g/

It's possible that they weren't trying to kill him - but disable him to keep him from leaving.

In that case they would have arrested him and locked him up. (That's actually what I expected to happen in the lead-up to this chapter.)

[Ser Reptitious]

Whatever,

But they weren't alone in the yard. There was a mad giant, a dying knight and a lot of people, both wildlings and NW. I'm sure Tormund came out right after jon... it's unlikely that Bowen & Co had enough time to keep stabbing him

I don't have the book in front of me right now, so I can't double-check, but I'm pretty sure that Jon told Tormund to stay at the party and get everyone drunk (something Tormund was only too happy to do).

Bowen Marsh is, if anything, constantly described as overly cautious, so I doubt that he and his fellow conspirators would have chosen to act rashly in a moment where they would not be able to finish the job. There were other people around, true, but I imagine that Marsh et al. were confident enough that they wouldn't interfere (or at least that not enough of them would).

[Whatever]

I don't have the book in front of me right now, so I can't double-check, but I'm pretty sure that Jon told Tormund to stay at the party and get everyone drunk (something Tormund was only too happy to do).

he did, but then the screams outside started. And what about all the people who were coming out right then?

[Ninerings]

Hey all. I posted this in the "Sorcery in Jon's last chapter? 2" thread the other day. Talks a lot about what we're discussing here.....

Ok' date=' first post, so hello everyone.

Couple of things....

One, is that it seems strange to me that only four people actually tried to make an attempt on Jon's life. Book isn't in front of me, but I feel that a "true" attempt on a fighter as strong as Jon (remember the fight with RattleMance), would involve more than four guys, at least two of which are Stewards and all using short daggers. Also, there is that Queen's knight (name?) who clearly wanted a piece of Jon. I would think that it would be more of a sure thing before being done.

Two, is that none of the wounds described are particularly fatal. I know a bit about human anatomy (nursing), so here goes. First knife wound was a slash to the neck that he moved away from. Blood "welling" is not blood "spraying", which is what would be the result of an artery laceration. Head, face, neck, fingertips all bleed a LOT more than the severity of the wound on many occasions. Second wound is a stab to the stomach. Small dagger that he was able to pull out definitely got skin, muscle, and adipose layers. Now, if it went further in, we're talking bowel perforation, in which case, it is painful as heck, but only truly deadly after sepsis sets in. And that takes a while. Of course, it could have been arched under the rib cage, and then you have lung, liver, diaphragm, pancreas, MAYBE heart (but I doubt that last one due to the length of the blade.) Third wound was a stab between the shoulder blades. Yes, can hit any number of things there: Lung, heart, major blood vessels such as vena cava, subclavian, etc. However, it could have hit nothing. It could have stopped at bone. Again, painful, but not deadly in and of itself unless the heart or the major vessels was hit. Fourth strike may not have even hit. It says that he didn't feel that last strike, only cold. That could mean a number of things. He could have passed out from the pain, he could have died from a strike to the heart, it could also mean that IT NEVER STRUCK. That could also mean a number of things, the largest of which is that the attempt was halted. There were a LOT of people around, plus an angry giant, plus the fact he called to Ghost. Angry wolf may have gotten out (though I doubt that).

Him not being able to grasp his sword and draw it could be sorcery, or it could be him "freezing" in the face of the reality that he is being stabbed. I truly don't know.

Warging? I don't buy that. I assumed the prologue was more for Bran, and for a better understanding of any number of characters' benefit. Didn't Arya warg the cat to see the nice old man with the stick?

i think those guys did it "for the watch". ("For the republic" overtones there). I'm crummy with names from memory, but first guy put his hands up like "not me", because Jon could have messed him up there once he had hold of him, plus they were the closest over the course of this book, no? The second guy crying is because this goes against his vows to the NW, and doesn't hate the KID Jon personally. Plus, does it say how many people he ever actually killed?

I think that this was just a poor desperate spur of the moment attempt by four guys who have been at odds with the way Jon has been handling things as LC. I personally don't think Jon is dead. Hurt bad? yes. Dead? No. He may have jumped out of his body into the wolf at that point, but dead right there from those wounds? I'd be very, very surprised... [/quote']

[Auska]

He was grazed once (no damage), stomach the 2nd time and between the shoulders is the 3rd. We don't know what the 4th was. Presumable he was face down in the snow when the 4th hit. A stomach and back wound might not hit any major organs. He's killed off enough of Ned's kids. I don't think Jon will die... but what form his future life will take remains to be seen.

A stomach wound is quite bad given the level of medical care available, but not necessarily fatal. The “good” part about the backstab between the shoulderblades is that it's fairly unlikely to hit the heart or the crucial vessels, possible to injure the spine but can obviously puncture a lung.

Of course one must remember that the weapons (probably) aren't regular knives but long military daggers so their penetration is considerable.

[Pate the Pig Boy]

I'm with all those who say that Jon skinwalked into Ghost...

This. From the Prologue:

True death came suddenly; he felt a shock of cold, as if he had been plunged into the icy waters of a frozen lake.

While cold is often associated with dying, the stark (oops, not intended) description of True Death for a warg described above leaves me to believe that Jon Snow's body has died. No healing or close calls - it's dead. I join those who think that Jon's spirit has warged into a wolf, with Ghost being the most likely candidate. Now, can Melisandre resurrect Jon's body and can his spirit return? I don't know. I doubt his part in the story is done, so I think something along those lines will play out.

Pate

[Ser Reptitious]

Whatever,

he did, but then the screams outside started. And what about all the people who were coming out right then?

Fair enough. I concede that there is definitely enough vagueness about who emerged from the buildings and how they reacted to the stabbing of Jon that we have no way of conclusively establishing what exactly happened. I guess we'll just have to wait for the next book.

Like I said earlier in this thread, given GRRM's EW comment I tend to agree with the apparent majority here that Jon isn't completely dead. Personally, I really like(d) Jon as a character, so I certainly don't wish him dead, it's just that I'm getting rather annoyed with all these "are they dead or aren't they" cliffhangers, especially since the characters in question now always seem to end up alive, so the suspense isn't really there anymore.

As others have pointed out in this thread, there certainly seems to be a strong homage to the killing of Caesar in this chapter, so if it turns that Jon suffered 'merely a flesh wound' it will seem like a rather lame cop-out, IMHO. I seem to recall GRRM once stating that in his opinion it would have been far more emotionally effective had Gandalf stayed dead after his fall in Moria. This seems like a perfect opportunity for GRRM to put his money where his mouth is in that regard.

[Black Crow]

Whatever,

I seem to recall GRRM once stating that in his opinion it would have been far more emotionally effective had Gandalf stayed dead after his fall in Moria. This seems like a perfect opportunity for GRRM to put his money where his mouth is in that regard.

In this case no, simply because unlike say Eddard Stark (a straightforward Sir Thomas More character) there's too much been invested in Jon which hasn't been played out, such as the R+L=J and the clear indications that Jon is yet to be the Ice.

[Black Crow]

A stomach wound is quite bad given the level of medical care available, but not necessarily fatal. The “good” part about the backstab between the shoulderblades is that it's fairly unlikely to hit the heart or the crucial vessels, possible to injure the spine but can obviously puncture a lung.

Of course one must remember that the weapons (probably) aren't regular knives but long military daggers so their penetration is considerable.

Considerable only if Jon isn't wearing a mail shirt and in that cold he'll also have been wearing something on top of it to stop the iron totally chilling down, as well as the usual padding underneath. Now the wound obviously did penetrate because when he pulled the dagger out "In the cold night air the wound was smoking", but its questionable how much real damage it had done. Its the blood loss from that first wound to the neck that's bothering him. As for the one between the shoulder blades not only, as others have pointed out, is that not necessarily going to do a lot of damage at the best of times given the amount of bone in that area, but Jon's already on his knees and low down which is going to limit the amount of penetrative force being delivered especially as he's effectively rolling with the punch as he collapses on his face. There is certainly a fourth blow, because GRRM says he never felt it - and a straightforward reading says he'd lost conciousness by then - but again he's already on the ground and by definition very low down. Unless the guy is literally right on top of him that blow isn't going to go very far either.

[the average Other]

I have no doubt that the neckwound was a lot worse than Jon thought, not just a scratch. He started to get dizzy and numb immediately, fell, and passed out. Jon isn't the kind of person who'd react like that to mere pain or fear. He's a pretty experienced fighter and used to both. He didn't pass out when he burned his hand, for example, and we've never seen him freeze when the action starts. His reaction only makes sense if there was major blood loss, IMO.

The lack of spurting blood in the first moments is consistent with GRRM's style. If memory serves, when Jon slashed Qhorin Halfhand's throat at first the blood just welled and then he fell. And isn't that some ironic foreshadowing, by the way -- Jon killed his brother only to get killed by his own brothers in the same way.

[Whatever]

Personally, I really like(d) Jon as a character, so I certainly don't wish him dead, it's just that I'm getting rather annoyed with all these "are they dead or aren't they" cliffhangers, especially since the characters in question now always seem to end up alive, so the suspense isn't really there anymore......This seems like a perfect opportunity for GRRM to put his money where his mouth is in that regard.

This is what i'm worried about. That GRRM decides to go back to the old ways. Please no..Dance turned me into a complete fangirl xD if he really wants to kill somebody, I hope that somebody is not jon.

Anyway,

I have no doubt that the neckwound was a lot worse than Jon thought, not just a scratch. He started to get dizzy and numb immediately, fell, and passed out. Jon isn't the kind of person who'd react like that to mere pain or fear. He's a pretty experienced fighter and used to both. He didn't pass out when he burned his hand, for example, and we've never seen him freeze when the action starts. His reaction only makes sense if there was major blood loss, IMO.

i really like it. It's the best explaination I've read so far.

[tolthar]

I've got it!.

Our Winds of Winter prologue is from the POV of........ GHOST! With Jon warged into him the story can be told to the same effect as Brans warging during clash of kings. Where the POV kinda feels like there is two minds. Ghost and Jon. So the POV could just pretty much narrate the awesome, hatefilled, bloodthirsty rage shared by Jon's shock of being attacked and Ghosts protective instincts. What am I getting at? Jon might be saved by himself and his trusty pet in the opening chapter giving his wildling pals and even the black brothers who surely must object to this a chance to step in and get Jon out of there. Then Jon might spend the entire book bed ridden and always near death, who knows. I'm just speculating. I personally think GRRM does enjoy giving us too many hints that turn out to be nothing more than coincidences. Because lets face it, prophecies and whatnot are fun in fantasy novels but sometimes we need to be reminded that the only reason the concept of prophecy exists is because in darker ages things like coincidence and certain skills seemed liked magic. Why does it have to have anything to do with a prophecy at all?

That being said, we're faced with a problem. Ghost will have to die based on the prologue/epilogue trend :( right before jon wargs back to his own body as he is being helped back to life by lets say Dolorous Edd who just happened to hear all the fuss from his keep on the wall.

[Dolorous J]

The Priest Moqorro was able to heal Victorions infected rotten hand . Who's to say the same spell couldn't be used by Melissendre to heal Jon's stab wounds? It's possible he doesn't even have to die1st in order to be saved.