(ADWD) Jon Snow: Is GRRM just playing with words?

[Tammy]

This is true, but remember one of them went straight in his belly (the one that was 'smoking') no less. That's usually pretty fatal.

I do agree that Martin's playing with words much as he was in other cases we thought one thing was happening and it was actually another. That's the clever thing about using a POV approach. What one person sees or thinks is happening isn't always what's really going on.

Another spot I think he's playing with words in that scene is describing Jon looking down to see his wound 'smoking' (as I mentioned above)... now why would he use that word if something weird wasn't going on and it was in fact just a straightforward assassination attack? Smoking is a word one associates with burning, not with blood or body heat hitting cold air. That word would be 'steaming' ... and I fully believe Martin used this odd wordage on purpose. He rarely uses arbitrary descriptions without purpose.

I agree the word smoking does seem important. In the Dany chapter later, her dragon's wound was said to smoke as well. I don't know that any other wound besides the two were described as smoking.

[Tammy]

after rereading the end of jon's final chapter ive come to a decision that there is something sinister in jons assassination.

1. as many of you pointed out - the word smoking is weird when describing jons wound

2. wick raises his hand as if to say "not me" makes me think that someone made him do it, maybe even controlled him while he does it.

3. bowen has tears in his eye. same as wick, he does not seem to realy want to kill jon

4. jon cant take longclaw out of its scabbard and he doesnt understand why.

anyway both wick and bowen had many chances to kill jon. to hit him when half of castle black is watching is a bad idia. there are many wildling there who likes jon, they will surly slay thier beloved savior murderers

for all these reason i suspect some foul play.

i dont have a well formed theory yet

but i suspect mel had her hands in this

the word smoking seem to incriminate her

we dont know the full extent of her power

maybe she can control people

and its not hard to make a blade stick

any thoughts?

I was just thinking about this too and was reminded of when Melisandre was able to take control of Ghost. He was practically bowing to her and refused to come to Jon when he called. She then reminded him of her power.

Now, I don't think that Mel really intends Jon to die, but is it possible that she took control of some to attack him. Perhaps she kept him from being able to draw his sword? We know, ala "lightbringer", that she is not opposed to using her magic to force a prophecy she believes in. We also know that she saw something because she wanted him to call for her after he got his answer from the skies.

I don't believe that there was a glamor used and that really wasn't Jon because we saw it from his perspective.

You're right though. Something seemed very off about that mutiny. (Not that I don't believe Marsh was capable of it, but the whole scene was wrong)

[Landis]

No time right now to scan through the whole thread to see if this was mentioned or not, but I think that Jon WILL die. But fortunately, Mel is at the Wall, and being a red priest(ess), she should be capable of bringing him back to life, just like Thoros did with Beric Dondarrion and Catelyn Stark, right? Not heal his physical body, BRING HIM BACK TO LIFE. That way, he still has all of the wounds from the mutiny to be used as a constant reminder to "watch your back," and he is also finally convinced of just how powerful Mel is. It would allow him to be reborn in ice and fire (A Song of Ice and Fire, anyone), just as he was born of fire and ice (assuming that R+L=J), and it would also play into the Azor Ahai prophecy as well. As an added bonus, the whole revival thing gives him something in common with Catelyn, which may be something that they can bond over in some way in the future.

Side bar: Seems to me that the "Song of Ice and Fire" might be the song that Rhaegar sang at the tourney at Harrenhall that made all the women cry. I'll wager it was a love song he wrote about Lyanna (ice) and himself (fire).

[nautodidact]

Side bar: Seems to me that the "Song of Ice and Fire" might be the song that Rhaegar sang at the tourney at Harrenhall that made all the women cry. I'll wager it was a love song he wrote about Lyanna (ice) and himself (fire).

I had the same thought this weekend. If R+L=J is true then it is obvious that Jon is the central character of the story based on the title of the series.

In terms of Ice and Fire Aegon doesn't make sense, assuming he is the real Aegon which I believe him to be.

[gonzoaster11]

Someone had an interesting thought in another thread about "waking a stone dragon" to not literally refer to a dragon, but rather to a Targaryan (because prophecies about Targs referred to them as Dragons). I kind of liked that idea. Although the "never felt the fourth" discussion from the first couple pages of this thread makes some intriguing points as well, I do believe Jon's body has died. I started thinking about the "waking the dragon" idea being a person (Jon), and how other dragons were woken in the past (Funeral Pyre). What do the NW and wildlings do with dead bodies now? Burn them. How does "stone" fit into this then? Easy. Jon's stiff, dead body could easily be described as stone. So to summarize, I believe Jon is dead. His body will be burnt in a funeral pyre, but will not actually burn. Instead, like when Dany woke her dragon inside herself (and the three literal dragons), the fire will awaken the Targ in Jon, and he will become AA sometime thereafter.

[HouseLark]

As someone said before, we don't know for sure Jon died or "died" from his stab wounds. Personally, I think it would be much stronger storytelling if Jon was severely wounded from the attack but lives without recourse to sorcery or warging into Ghost or some other terrifically fantastical turn of events. The strength of ASOIAF is that it doesn't bow to standard fantasy tropes and I'd hate to see that abandoned.

My theory is that GRRM was certainly playing with words. Jon was probably stabbed three times - not feeling the fourth blade could easily refer to the numbness that arises after a certain level of pain with your body kind of shutting down without turning off. None of his wounds were necessarily mortal - plenty of people survive stab wounds to the neck and belly, it all depends on how large the wound was, something which we are not told in ADWD. I believe that in the next visit to the Wall we will see that Ghost, Mel's Queensguard, and maybe even some of the Wildlings will have saved Jon but his position as LC will be untenable.

I also don't think he'll be excused his vows to become AA etc; this to me, is just wishful thinking so that Jon can remain "honourable" as well as fulfilling the AA Luke Skywalker role. Balls to that. Jon will just go and break his vows as he intended to do and suffer the dishonour. He's not the new Ned Stark, he's a very naughty boy.

[Envie]

As someone said before, we don't know for sure Jon died or "died" from his stab wounds. Personally, I think it would be much stronger storytelling if Jon was severely wounded from the attack but lives without recourse to sorcery or warging into Ghost or some other terrifically fantastical turn of events. The strength of ASOIAF is that it doesn't bow to standard fantasy tropes and I'd hate to see that abandoned.

I agree, I would prefer the story go fairly straightforward in that he lives or dies one way or the other. While the fantasy fan in me likes the AA theme, I'm not sure its really what I had hoped for or expected with Jon Snow's story arc. I guess I kind of always thought of him as the down to earth normal one of the bunch who leads a less than glamorous life, makes the best of it (in the shadow of his legitimate Stark siblings) and does great things despite it.

The arrival of the Stannis/Melisandre show onto the scene really changed things. While I liked that they saved the day with the wildling invasion - I don't know about all the other theorycraft. I've joined in the debates, speculating what will happen with Jon, but I don't like the thought of him being an "unJon" like Beric or Cat, it just seems wrong to me.

[Ofaelol]

The whole thing reminds me of the assasination of Julius Caesar. I just wonder if the scene was written intentionally so the reader would draw correlations between the two.

I made the same association. Could GRRM be trying to parallel Jon with Ceasar?

[Ofaelol]

I agree, I would prefer the story go fairly straightforward in that he lives or dies one way or the other. While the fantasy fan in me likes the AA theme, I'm not sure its really what I had hoped for or expected with Jon Snow's story arc. I guess I kind of always thought of him as the down to earth normal one of the bunch who leads a less than glamorous life, makes the best of it (in the shadow of his legitimate Stark siblings) and does great things despite it.

... speculating what will happen with Jon, but I don't like the thought of him being an "unJon" like Beric or Cat, it just seems wrong to me.

It would be much more ASOIAF for Jon's stabbing to pan out at face value. In the first 100 pages of GoT, I couldn't believe that he would cripple that poor little Stark boy; some "classic" fantasy magic had to set that right.

With Ned's death, the RW and the 3 Eyed Crow not fixing Bran, it would be a shame for GRRM to give into fantasy tropes and make an "unJon."

Personally, I wouldn't mind Jon mirroring Bran a little and getting suck in Ghost's body, forever .

ETA: clarifications

[Black Crow]

I agree, I would prefer the story go fairly straightforward in that he lives or dies one way or the other. While the fantasy fan in me likes the AA theme, I'm not sure its really what I had hoped for or expected with Jon Snow's story arc. I guess I kind of always thought of him as the down to earth normal one of the bunch who leads a less than glamorous life, makes the best of it (in the shadow of his legitimate Stark siblings) and does great things despite it.

The arrival of the Stannis/Melisandre show onto the scene really changed things. While I liked that they saved the day with the wildling invasion - I don't know about all the other theorycraft. I've joined in the debates, speculating what will happen with Jon, but I don't like the thought of him being an "unJon" like Beric or Cat, it just seems wrong to me.

Fundamentally that's my problem too, turning Jon into AA would not only be far too predictable in itself but wouldn't live up to the standard of writing we're currently enjoying.

[onetruegod]

Five words: Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun. :smoking:

^^^^^ astute fact

[houseHB]

Hell if 50 cent can survive 9 gunshot wounds Jon Snow can survive at least 3 stab wounds maybe 4. Jon at least had protection he likes to wear the typical Stark fashion "heavy fur cloaks"

[naik2902]

i think jon will come back to life and with some extraordinary powers.

[jarl the climber]

I agree the word smoking does seem important. In the Dany chapter later, her dragon's wound was said to smoke as well. I don't know that any other wound besides the two were described as smoking.

Actually in the prolouge of a AGOT Jared said that Royces blood seemed like fire when he was being killed by the Others. It seemed similar to me.

[Ghost714]

Actually in the prolouge of a AGOT Jared said that Royces blood seemed like fire when he was being killed by the Others. It seemed similar to me.

He didn't say it seemed like fire. GRRM just used the same discription, saying that the wounds where smoking, instead of steaming. When GRRM first used that discription in the prologue of AGoT, I think it was just creative license. However, I think using the discription of Jon's wounds "smoking", is yet another clue to Jon being a Targaryen, because shortly after that we get the discription of Drogon's wounds smoking in Daxnak's Pit, after he gets stabbed by a spear.

Side note, why do so many people all through out this thread keep saying Jon was stabbed four times! He was only stabbed three times, and he was never "stabbed" in the neck. The first knife grazed Jon's neck, barely cutting him. The second knife was stabbed in his abdominal region. The third knife went in between his shoulder blades. We don't know where the fourth knife stabbed Jon, but considering he fell face first to the ground after the third knife, I bet it was somewhere on the back of his body(I highly doubt they flipped him over to stab him the last time).

So Jon was only stabbed three times! First knife was just a cut. I am not even going to go into all the factors that could allow Jon to not be as hurt as we might think. Such as thick warm clothing, possible chainmail, the fact that his attackers were Stewards, not Rangers, it's very cold making him not bleed out as much etc etc etc..

The point is, there is no way that Jon being dead is a for sure thing. He could very easily survive three stab wounds and a scratch to the neck, especially when you consider all the possible factors that were likely present.

[Buried Treasure]

Side note, why do so many people all through out this thread keep saying Jon was stabbed four times! He was only stabbed three times, and he was never "stabbed" in the neck. The first knife grazed Jon's neck, barely cutting him. The second knife was stabbed in his abdominal region. The third knife went in between his shoulder blades. We don't know where the fourth knife stabbed Jon, but considering he fell face first to the ground after the third knife, I bet it was somewhere on the back of his body(I highly doubt they flipped him over to stab him the last time).

It's a possibility that the first wound was much deeper than Jon realised at the time. Some thoughts that support this:

- There was a fair amount of blood.

- On the next page Barristan muses that with deep wounds the blood sometimes comes before the pain.

- It might explain his seeming paralysis in one hand, if a nerve had been damaged or his body had gone into shock from injury.

We'll probably never know because when Jon's fate gets revealed they'll probably talk about the cumulative effect of all the wounds rather discuss each individually, but it's the explanation I favour (mostly because I don't like explanations of Jon's arm not working because of magic being used to attack him).

It's true it was more a slice than a stab.

[Doza]

I think the smoking wound is a red herring. It's cold, anything with heat will give off visible "smoke". It's just a hot wound, sort of like a hot cup of coffee in the cold air.

[Ghost714]

I think the smoking wound is a red herring. It's cold, anything with heat will give off visible "smoke". It's just a hot wound, sort of like a hot cup of coffee in the cold air.

I don't think it means much, but it could be just one more clue pointing to Jon being a Dragon(Targaryen). Not to long after Jon gets stabbed, Drogon's wounds are smoking to. It's just curious that GRRM chose the word smoking with Jon, only again to use it with Drogon.

[Tall Tyrion Lannister!]

I took it as him passing out or dying.

[Morrigan]

More or less on topic, sorry if this has been brought up before, but does this passage from Bran's vision (AGoT, before he wakes from the coma) foreshadow Jon becoming a wight?

Finally he looked north. He saw the Wall shining like blue crystal, and his bastard brother Jon sleeping alone in a cold bed, his skin growing pale and hard as the memory of all warmth fled from him.

That could just be Jon being lonely and cold freezing his ass off at the Wall, of course. But I found the choice of words to be interesting. "Skin growing pale and hard"? "Memory of all warmth" fleeing? Yikes.