Winter's Here Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 My apologies if this has been posted before --I looked through the thread on his death and didn't find this option (that I want to present) and I thought I would throw it out here. Obviously nobody *really* believes Jon is dead/dead. It would just be infuriatingly bad story-telling (my opinion) and GRRM does seem to be foreshadowing with the ice cells in adwd etc. I think we are all expecting Jon to end up being more than what he seems, what that is (AA?) nobody really knows. But I think most of us can agree that *something* big could/should be coming with Jon and it will be the true definition of the word "epic". My question: why does he have to die and go through a lengthy resurrection before becoming AA? (for example) Is it not possible that GRRM is playing with us a little bit when he says that "he never even felt the 4th knife" (don't have exact quote in-front of me). We, obviously, take that to mean that the 3rd stab killed him and therefore the dead wouldn't feel more mutilation.... but what if it means that something was reborn/awakened between the 3rd and 4th blow and the reason he didn't feel the 4th blow wasn't because he was dead, it was because he had already become immortal. Maybe our favorite red hottie -as she witnesses the attack- casts a type of protection spell on him that would make him oblivious to knife wounds? It seems to me that the question everyone is asking is, "Is Jon going to come back?" whereas my question is, "Is Jon really even dead?". Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon rr stark Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 He only feels the cold of the ground he is face down in. He didn't feel the 4th knife seems to me to no longer his pov. His preception stops at the third knife ie he is dead. The 4th knife either he or the reader is looking at the scene. If its unjon its like oh I could only feel cold didn't know they stabbed be a 4th time. If its the reader viewpoint its just a discription of the end. I see it as the last paragraph swithes from present to past tense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theo1 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Your question about playing with words is spot on. But, consider this. The 4th knife could refer to the 4th conspirator (the 4th person who was supposed to attack), and he may not have felt it because the 4th person was stopped. By whom? Who knows, at this point. But it is a possible interpretation from the scene. Did Wun Wun stop the 4th? Unlikley, but he was getting along with Jon (who talked to him a bunch through Leatherwhathisname). Was it one of the Queens men or Mel's men or soemone else? Could someone have left Ghost out? Could it have been other NW who helped. As metaphor, again, the 4th knife could have been a person weilding a knife, and the language does not mean that a 4th knife was even stuck in him. We have had all this speculation that he is dead, will not come back for a while, be in Ghost, etc. But, what if he is just badly injured? Everyone was thinking that Ayra was going to be blind forever. Then, they gave her sight back four POVs later. I think in these books if you do not see someone killed don't assume they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sega AM2 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The prologue seemed to raise the idea that a warg could live on in an animal after his original body died. Odds are that Jon is now in Ghost and will be there for at least a chapter (or three, seeing ADWD's pace). Melisandre will likely heal his body and then raise him back as Azor Ahai. I doubt that Jon's resurrection will be immediate. If it was then it would have been included in ADWD. One of the long sequences moved out of ADWD was probably Jon coming back as Azor Ahai. I'm guessing we have a few chapters of Jon in Ghost. A few chapters of Mel freaking out until she realizes what the deal is. And then we get Jon back as the flaming hero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Non-Human Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 He never felt the 4 knife because his senses were already full on pain when it was stabbed. Or so I thought when I read that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tolthar Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Know what's crazy, somewhere in the second jon chapter from a clash of kings he comments on how he doesn't want his hands to become all clumsy and stiff and how it might be the end of him one day. :stunned: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabo Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Know what's crazy, somewhere in the second jon chapter from a clash of kings he comments on how he doesn't want his hands to become all clumsy and stiff and how it might be the end of him one day. :stunned:He didn't feel the 4th knife, because he wasn't home. His mind is warged into Ghost, and Ghost is locked in Jon's quarters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm pretty sure he was just passing out/going into shock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faint Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 He didn't feel the 4th knife, because he wasn't home. His mind is warged into Ghost, and Ghost is locked in Jon's quarters.I agree. This was my train of thought as I was reading the message. By the time he was stabbed for the fourth time, his consciousness had already transferred to Ghost. Although, I have to put in, we don't know if he is still locked in Jon's quarters. If you'll recall, Melisandre left the meeting early, before Jon, and she had previously asked him, in the very same chapter, where Ghost was. For all we know, she might have already gone to get Ghost and released him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxPatlick Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Know what's crazy, somewhere in the second jon chapter from a clash of kings he comments on how he doesn't want his hands to become all clumsy and stiff and how it might be the end of him one day. :stunned:That was the most frustrating part to me. All this time training against multiple opponents and flexing his sword hand to keep it from getting stiff on him and the first time he really NEEDS all of that preparation and... nothing :(I was all kinds of excited, I just knew Jon was about to whip out Longclaw and put these fools DOWN... but noooooo :tantrum: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygritte Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Know what's crazy, somewhere in the second jon chapter from a clash of kings he comments on how he doesn't want his hands to become all clumsy and stiff and how it might be the end of him one day. :stunned:He also references his burn-scarred hand. I wonder if that's why he had such issues drawing his sword...his hand seized up at the wrong moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antoinetta Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm pretty sure he was just passing out/going into shock.This is my first thought. I don't think Jon is going to die or is dead. I have a strong premonition that he may become a wildingly ( free folk). He seems to have had this connection with them. He's drawn to them. Certainly, it's from his experience with Ygritte, and how he seems to have fond memories of her, and what she always said to him ( and yes, of course, the wild, passionate, sex they had). This is just my prediction. Perhaps, Val will become his lover, or wife? Again, just my prediction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ice Turtle Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Reading it first time my thought was that he never felt the 4th knife because it never touched him, surprisingly first thing that come to mind was his talk with Melisandre when he tels her that its always cold on the Wall and her answer (thought?) is that he knows nothing. My first crazy theory was that Others decided this "glorious" moment for NW to attack. There were few times mentioned snow sky and snowing and that's a bad bad omen. If it was the case even Bowen March could have realized that he have more urgent things to do than murdering his LC. Well theory2: If L+R=J is true than there was just kings blood shed on one of the most magical places on the world. The blood of Stark, the blood of Brandon the Builder himself, if Aegon is fake you cant come to more kingly king blood and Jon wasn't just stabbed in combat he was about to be sacrificed for NW if the tears in Bowen's eyes were true. Thinking how strong the blood magic is, something just have to happen, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerritus Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 Your question about playing with words is spot on. But, consider this. The 4th knife could refer to the 4th conspirator (the 4th person who was supposed to attack), and he may not have felt it because the 4th person was stopped. By whom? Who knows, at this point. But it is a possible interpretation from the scene. Did Wun Wun stop the 4th? Unlikley, but he was getting along with Jon (who talked to him a bunch through Leatherwhathisname). Was it one of the Queens men or Mel's men or soemone else? Could someone have left Ghost out? Could it have been other NW who helped. As metaphor, again, the 4th knife could have been a person weilding a knife, and the language does not mean that a 4th knife was even stuck in him. We have had all this speculation that he is dead, will not come back for a while, be in Ghost, etc. But, what if he is just badly injured? Everyone was thinking that Ayra was going to be blind forever. Then, they gave her sight back four POVs later. I think in these books if you do not see someone killed don't assume they are.I'm pretty bummed if Jon doesn't die. He got stabbed thrice. Maybe 4 times. That ought to be quite fatal. Mel casting some protection spell on him seems a bit of a cop out, too.Oh, I'm sure he'll come back to life somehow, don't know how, and don't really care to speculate how, either. Well, there's the prophesy how he's first a man, then a wolf, then a man again, so I'd say it's pretty safe bet he's going to spend a while inside Ghost.To the bolded part: Really? People thought she'd be blind forever? I thought it was obvious that it would be just a phase in her training. Anyhow, that's pretty bad comparison, because Arya being blind for rest of the story vs. Jon being dead for the rest of the story are on quite a different scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slayer420 Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm pretty bummed if Jon doesn't die. He got stabbed thrice. Maybe 4 times. That ought to be quite fatal. Mel casting some protection spell on him seems a bit of a cop out, too.Oh, I'm sure he'll come back to life somehow, don't know how, and don't really care to speculate how, either. Well, there's the prophesy how he's first a man, then a wolf, then a man again, so I'd say it's pretty safe bet he's going to spend a while inside Ghost.To the bolded part: Really? People thought she'd be blind forever? I thought it was obvious that it would be just a phase in her training. Anyhow, that's pretty bad comparison, because Arya being blind for rest of the story vs. Jon being dead for the rest of the story are on quite a different scale.I think the line about Starks being hard to kill will come into play here. No reason bran should still be alive either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvlr Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The prologue shows that when a warg (sixskins) dies, his spitit floats around and sees things around him until he guides it to a new body. So I would say that after the third knife, Jon is floating around and checking things out. I do not know how long he "let" his spirit just observe, but from Mel's vision we know that he "goes" into a wolf (Probably Ghost) then he returns to a man's body (probably his own - when Mel does her thing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rydis Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 immortal..since when was AA described as immortal?..where did that come from?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DornishHighlander Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 The idea he couldn't feel the 4th stab along with the comment that it wasn't his perspective + his last word Ghost; I like to think that means he warged into Ghost and saw the 4th stab and didn't feel it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagganaro Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I would freaking love Jon as the new King of the wildlings. I did get the feeling that something was being set up between Jon and Val. As for the men, he already earned their respect because they were all willing to go ride with him on Ramsay, even Tormund approved of his speech and told him he just had to drink with them to seal the deal.It would be an interesting direction for the story to take- They also set up Jon v. Mance via their awesome showdown in training. Maybe they fight again with control over the wildlings as the prize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalasin Posted August 17, 2011 Share Posted August 17, 2011 I'm pretty bummed if Jon doesn't die. He got stabbed thrice. Maybe 4 times. That ought to be quite fatal. Mel casting some protection spell on him seems a bit of a cop out, too.Technically we only know about two stab wounds, one graze and one mystery attack. You can survive a LOT of stab wounds if they don't hit anything vital. People have survived way more than four. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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