(ADWD) Jon Snow: Is GRRM just playing with words?

[kaukula]

What does rescuing his sister from legal marriage, or assisting Stannis in his claims have to do with preparing for the war against the Others? Letting the wildlings through the wall is completely different story, and I agree that all men needed to unite against the undead. But in the other examples I mentioned, Jon was blatantly using Nights watch resources for his own private needs. And Nights watch must not take part in the affairs of 7 kingdoms.

We heard that sentence told at least 50 times throughout the books, by many different characters, yet Jon broke that rule many times in ADWD. I am sure that he gave his best as a man (under very difficult circumstances) but he failed in his duties as lord commander, and when those things combined, we got a beautiful and tragic story that should not be ruined by some magical resurrection crap.

[Buried Treasure]

From the moment he reads the pink letter Jon's thought processes seem very strange. Most people agree he seems out of character. Some of the theories explaining that say that Jon might have been magically controlled or someone with a glamour impersonating him.

I'm certain it was still Jon, and I think that he was still thinking his normal, in-character thoughts (which mostly revolve around preparing for Winter and the coming of the Others). I just think that we, the reader, are not sharing those thoughts because they relate to an 'unspoken plan' that the author does not want to share with us at this time. So we only get to read half of Jon's thoughts, which are about his secondary motivations of aiding Arya and assisting Stannis (which are things he has always wanted, but would not normally act on except as a side effect of some other plan). There is no denying that even though we are in the characters minds we often do not get to share all of their thoughts. It is just that usually when a POV character has a new plan the chapter ends with something like 'and suddenly he knew just what he was going to do' and we find out the plan midway through the next chapter - but this time we have to wait until the next book.

All that applies just for the last chapter, you also seem to be objecting to Jon's general involvement in politics such as meddling with the Karstarks and Stannis. In normal times there are good reasons for the Watch to stay neutral. These are the times for which the Nights Watch was created and playing politics seems perfectly valid if Jon is going to succeed in keeping anyone alive until spring. 600-odd guys in black and a few thousand undiscplined wildlings are not going to stop the Others. He needs to bring together his own resources with armies under discipline (Stannis) and all the strength of the North (the Karstarks, the mountain Clans). That is going to require close cooperation over a number of years so it is certainly within the Lord Commanders remit to ensure that the leaders of the other factions are competent and trustworthy, if one accepts that the Lords Commanders pragmatism is more important than his honourableness.

[dreamcatcher]

I don't want to open a new thread, but I thought I'd put a nice little tidbit I found up here. It's in the first chapter of ADwD, when Varamyr thinks about Jon.

Varamyr knew the truth of that. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell’s, he could feel

the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and

his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He

had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One

kinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a

second life worthy of a king.

[kaukula]

Yay, Ghost as 999th lord commader of night's watch, can't wait to see that.

This series would have been be much better if it remained with very little magic, and very real deaths, like it was at the beginning.

[PSHorton]

That was the most frustrating part to me. All this time training against multiple opponents and flexing his sword hand to keep it from getting stiff on him and the first time he really NEEDS all of that preparation and... nothing

I was all kinds of excited, I just knew Jon was about to whip out Longclaw and put these fools DOWN... but noooooo :tantrum:

This made me laugh. Very hard.

[bemused]

kaukula... Cheer up , Grrm hasn't written that Jon is dead . It's true, he leaves us fearing that Jon might be , but that's not the same thing. All the talk of various magical resurrections makes one's head spin , but it's purely our speculation , and I suspect may be totally unnecessary.

We don't know how serious his wounds are . Well , we know the first was easily survivable ..as to the others , they may or may not have been life threatening, depending on what Jon was wearing , and whether the knives pierced anything vital, etc.etc. We simply don't know these things yet.

Many posters have pointed out that in the real world, people have survived knife attacks of many more wounds than 3 or 4. Even if the attackers' knowledge of where to strike and their aim is accurate , if the target moves just slightly , it can make all the difference. And there are many other variables that could come into play.

At the beginning of ADwD , Stannis' forces greatly outnumbered the NW. Now, with Stannis at Winterfell and the arrival of Tormund's people, the men Stannis left behind ( mainly the least useful of his men ) are greatly outnumbered by the combination of NW and wildlings loyal to Jon.( And the queen's men's first objective will have to be to protect Selyse , Shireen and Mel ) I don't think that the first person Jon's followers would turn to for help would be Mel . For the NW men , it would probably be Clydas , while the wildlings might turn to Morna , the warrior witch. ( She wasn't mentioned in the sheildhall scene , but that doesn't mean she wasn't there, or that she's too far away to be reached in time , depending on the nature of Jon's wounds.)

GRRM has given us a few hints that give me pause for thought. He tells us Mance was healed by a wildling wise woman or woods witch ( I forget which term was used ). His wounds were serious enough that his brothers knew he wouldn't survive the trip back to the Wall... Val tells Jon that if he would know the truth about greyscale, he should ask a woods witch.

Everybody south of the Wall consider wildlings to be savages , barbarians, uncouth and uneducated . But I can't help but be reminded of all the medicinal breakthroughs we've achieved in our world , by taking a second look at the medicinal knowledge of indigenous peoples , and old wives' remedies.... That Morna is a warrior and a witch makes me think she has special expertise with battle wounds with or without magic involved.

On an interesting side note.. in swearing herself to Jon, she swears as both warrior and witch. She removes her mask , kisses his gloved hand and vows to be his man or his woman as ,he prefers. Because she has a son among the older hostages , I don't think this is pure flirtation. She's probably a lot older than Jon , and her status as a leader probably comes from more than her skill at arms.

Just another alternative to Un-Jon, wight -Jon , Forever- Ghost- Jon , or Victarion- thing Jon..and one that I'm hoping for above the others. Healed and Wiser and Developed- Warg Jon for me. ;)

[gogorath]

I may be wrong but I feel Jon's last chapter was very uncharacteristic of him. He always thought things thru befroe doing them, he went against the NW, which he had totally been against the whole series, and its like he couldn't believe the NW would attack him. They all hated him! It seemed like it was a last minute thought. I was disapointed with the last 1/3 of the book. Don't get me wrong I love GRRM's writing but it became more uncharacteristic of him the longer the book went.

Pretty sure the author determines what Jon's character is. Jon never bothered to get the Night's Watch on his side. The idea of Bowen Marsh rebelling wasn't something he could comprehend. He assumed because he was right and LC he could do whatever. There's not a lot of reason to believe a 20 year old would avoid this mistake, especially once with no real prior leadership experience, aside from a group of similarly-aged people who liked him personally and looked up to his abilities.

[baxter]

Yay, Ghost as 999th lord commader of night's watch, can't wait to see that.

This series would have been be much better if it remained with very little magic, and very real deaths, like it was at the beginning.

Goodness, there's hardly even been any real magic at all in the series. GRRM said at the height of the magic output in his books will be less than some fantasy's have on page 1.

[bemused]

baxter..Yes , and he said that though magic increases as the books go along , there would still be less at the end than is common. He could never claim that if even half of the theories that have been floated on the boards are true... :D

Gogorath... I think that's a pretty shallow reading of Jon's character.. Quite a few NW were willing to be on his side when they voted for him. Hardly any were willing to vote for Marsh..Why then should we believe Marsh when he says the men this or the men that ... as if he spoke for the majority ? Mormont gave Jon the truth when he said the men would always complain about something.. The only ones we know aren't just indulging in the usual grousing are Slynt, Thorne and the conspirators , and even Yarwick appears to bail from the conspirators' ranks when it comes down to murder.

Would you suggest a Lord Commander gear his decisions to what will be popular with the men ?...Right then..breakfast in bed every other day , regular furloughs to see the girls in Mole's Town , triple the ale ration, skip arms practice if you feel a bit off for any reason..or if you're Marsh, freeze the gates,kill everyone who isn't NW , settle in for the winter and hope for the best.. Jon was ( is) right and his title , LC , is also his job description..command.

Mormont , Aegon ,Stannis, Val, Tormund, Mel, ( and possibly Mance ) the Norrey , the Liddle and Tycho Nestoris have all been favourably impressed by his leadership abilities , or his person.. far beyond what would be normal for someone of his age.

[Nine of Spades]

Melisandre is expecting something to happen, so I think as soon as the commotion happens, which should attract her, she would look for Jon. Hes pretty central to her concerns. I think its also safe to assume that she is probably both capable of stopping the assassination and saving Jon's life. As for the point of the assassination attempt in the story, its to buy Mel Jon's trust. I would also think that Mel is completely panicked by the events. My guess is that Martin wants Mel to have Jon's trust. This is an ironclad way to establish it without feeling forced.

And for the record, this is exactly why Martin kills ned in book 1. If he hadnt, noone would believe Jon might be dead. That said, there is a reason Ned's death is so jarring, its not a price you can pay very often and still keep your readers.

[Nine of Spades]

What does rescuing his sister from legal marriage, or assisting Stannis in his claims have to do with preparing for the war against the Others? Letting the wildlings through the wall is completely different story, and I agree that all men needed to unite against the undead. But in the other examples I mentioned, Jon was blatantly using Nights watch resources for his own private needs. And Nights watch must not take part in the affairs of 7 kingdoms.

We heard that sentence told at least 50 times throughout the books, by many different characters, yet Jon broke that rule many times in ADWD. I am sure that he gave his best as a man (under very difficult circumstances) but he failed in his duties as lord commander, and when those things combined, we got a beautiful and tragic story that should not be ruined by some magical resurrection crap.

Hes got 4,000+ wildlings south of the wall that are vital to his plans, he has a deal with the bank of Braavos, and hes a Stark (bastard) and the Ramsey's arent trusting people. In short, he is trying to amass a rather large army on the wall for its defense and he needs the local powers that be to look the other way. Stannis will, the Ramseys wont. He has no choice but to throw his lot in with Stannis, which is ultimately what he decided to do. The Ramsey's would kill him or force him to neuter his forces to the point he cant hold the wall.

[Plainplucket]

The passage:

He saw the glint of steel, turned toward it. "No blades!" he screamed. "Wick, put that knife..."

...away, he meant to say. When Wick Whittlestick slashed at his throat, the word turned into a grunt. Jon twisted from the knife, just enough so it barely grazed his skin. He cut me. When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. "Why?"

"For the Watch." Wick slashed at him again. This time Jon caught his wrist and bent his arm back until he dropped the dagger. The gangling sterward backed away, hisw hands upraised as if to say, Not me, it was not me. Men were screaming. Jon reached for Longclaw, but his fingers had grown stiff and clumsy. Somehow he could not seem to get the sword free of its scabbard.

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. "For the Watch." He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had burried it.

...

When the third dagger took him between the shoulder blades, he gave a grunt and fell face-first into the snow. He never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold...

I live in a place that can get pretty darn cold, but I'm not sure I've seen "smoking" wounds before. Then again, that seems a bit nit-picky of me (especially because I've never seen anyone stabbed in the gut). So yeah, I think this is a red herring too. :) I might have read too many of these threads, but it seems to me that a guaranteed killing would land somewhere in the heart, brain, liver or throat. I imagine (if one doesn't take anemia into account) cuts to the intestines could take days to claim a life.

I also tend to agree that Jon couldn't grasp Longclaw because of shock. I've borne witness to a person horribly wounded, and it was shock that kept the pain at bay.

Jon was an important POV character, but that is not to say he was every very interesting. I really liked him, but he was a lot like Eddard Stark. They both seem to be fairly predictable characters - maybe that's why we love them.

It does seem there has been precedence for stress or near-death experience to push individuals to developing their talents in the book (ie: Bran), so if not dead, this may be Jon's opportunity to become profoundly more useful.

Also, Bran has coached Jon warging in the past... That seems like a great way for a tree to interfere with historic events. :)

[gogorath]

baxter..Yes , and he said that though magic increases as the books go along , there would still be less at the end than is common. He could never claim that if even half of the theories that have been floated on the boards are true... :D

Gogorath... I think that's a pretty shallow reading of Jon's character.. Quite a few NW were willing to be on his side when they voted for him. Hardly any were willing to vote for Marsh..Why then should we believe Marsh when he says the men this or the men that ... as if he spoke for the majority ? Mormont gave Jon the truth when he said the men would always complain about something.. The only ones we know aren't just indulging in the usual grousing are Slynt, Thorne and the conspirators , and even Yarwick appears to bail from the conspirators' ranks when it comes down to murder.

Would you suggest a Lord Commander gear his decisions to what will be popular with the men ?...Right then..breakfast in bed every other day , regular furloughs to see the girls in Mole's Town , triple the ale ration, skip arms practice if you feel a bit off for any reason..or if you're Marsh, freeze the gates,kill everyone who isn't NW , settle in for the winter and hope for the best.. Jon was ( is) right and his title , LC , is also his job description..command.

Mormont , Aegon ,Stannis, Val, Tormund, Mel, ( and possibly Mance ) the Norrey , the Liddle and Tycho Nestoris have all been favourably impressed by his leadership abilities , or his person.. far beyond what would be normal for someone of his age.

A good leader recognizes that he needs the support of those he leads. Jon shouldn't have bribed the men with laser rules, but he never really tried to gain their support. He sent away his strongest allies, which seemed like a good idea at the time. He dismissed dissent, never really bothering to even explain his point of view. He relied on them structural power of his office rather where power really lies. (which is crazy, since most of his votes were as Not-Pyke and Not-Mallister.)

The older men of the Night's Watch were asked to accept as allies people who were their enemies for decades. The wild kings had always been their opponents, had killed their friends and brothers. No amount of logic makes that easy to stomach, especially in the face of fairy tales. Remember, most of the men on the Fist are dead. But even if they rationally believe, old grudges die hard.

Jon Snow doesn't have the benefit of a good change management book. It's too bad, because he needs it. He's an all too common leader - one who made all the right decisions but left many of his men behind. It's really common with young and inexperienced leaders. Jon Snow forgot the riddle of the sellsword. Well, he never knew it. But since the NW had just butchered a much more respected LC just a bit ago, you'd think it might be more top of mind.

Like Dany -- who learns that good intentions aren't enough -- Jon is learning to be a leader the hard way. It's a good thing he's the hero or he'd likely be really dead. That's my read. I don't think it's shallow at all.

[bemused]

As I said , I think it remains to be seen just how much support Jon has, and how much March & co. had.

He explained his position in regard to the wildlings a number of times..And in a very reasoned way , which fell on deaf ears.Even the Northern clansmen came around to adopting a wait and see attitude , and they had their own long history of trouble with the wildlings ,people killed, women stolen.

Jon did miscalculate the lengths to which Marsh would go.. obviously. But then previously , Marsh had seemed " amiable enough". Costly mistake, but one anyone might have made . Everyone pretty well considered Marsh a fussy bean-counter before the Bridge of Skulls. And this was the first opportunity for anyone to realize the difference that experience made. Jon did move to remove Thorne, who he knew was a threat, from being able to continue to work on Marsh.... I don't think anyone else could have done much more. Marsh's mind was closed . No amount of explaining was going to sway him.

After the episode of the wights that they inadvertently brought through the wall , combined with the reports of those who did survive the fist, I think the fairy tales are now accepted by most.

The rangers , who for years have been on the sticky end of strife with the wildlings , appear to be taking Jon's side. ( and I think his votes were either Jon ( based on his defence of the wall ) or Not-Slynt ( good thing ).

Again, it was a handful of men , only ,who precipitated the attack on Mormont and they weren't the calibre of man Marsh was thought to be.

I don't say Jon is infallible ,but I don't know who else would have been able to do any better under the circumstances, Mallister ? Pyke ? Thorne ?..And I think that would still be true no matter those candidates ages.

He is young and of course he's learning. Anyone would be learning, this is a situation that hasn't been seen for an age.

Some of the others might have made the dreadful mistake of not letting the wildlings through the wall.

[gogorath]

As I said , I think it remains to be seen just how much support Jon has, and how much March & co. had.

He explained his position in regard to the wildlings a number of times..And in a very reasoned way , which fell on deaf ears.Even the Northern clansmen came around to adopting a wait and see attitude , and they had their own long history of trouble with the wildlings ,people killed, women stolen.

Jon did miscalculate the lengths to which Marsh would go.. obviously. But then previously , Marsh had seemed " amiable enough". Costly mistake, but one anyone might have made . Everyone pretty well considered Marsh a fussy bean-counter before the Bridge of Skulls. And this was the first opportunity for anyone to realize the difference that experience made. Jon did move to remove Thorne, who he knew was a threat, from being able to continue to work on Marsh.... I don't think anyone else could have done much more. Marsh's mind was closed . No amount of explaining was going to sway him.

After the episode of the wights that they inadvertently brought through the wall , combined with the reports of those who did survive the fist, I think the fairy tales are now accepted by most.

The rangers , who for years have been on the sticky end of strife with the wildlings , appear to be taking Jon's side. ( and I think his votes were either Jon ( based on his defence of the wall ) or Not-Slynt ( good thing ).

Again, it was a handful of men , only ,who precipitated the attack on Mormont and they weren't the calibre of man Marsh was thought to be.

I don't say Jon is infallible ,but I don't know who else would have been able to do any better under the circumstances, Mallister ? Pyke ? Thorne ?..And I think that would still be true no matter those candidates ages.

He is young and of course he's learning. Anyone would be learning, this is a situation that hasn't been seen for an age.

Some of the others might have made the dreadful mistake of not letting the wildlings through the wall.

To be clear, I don't think Jon was a poor or disastrous Lord Commander. I do think he made a mistake with severe consequences, and I do think, as you said, that's a mistake a LOT of people make.

Jon was asking the Night's Watch to make a gigantic change. He was probably strategically right, as he had a real crisis on his hands. But while he mentioned once or twice his reasons, he relied on his authority as Lord Commander to force the men below him to go along.

Strong, effective leadership in this situation involves really making sure people are bought in. Listening to Marsh's concerns, allowing him to come up with the mitigations, compromise, finding an emotional connection are all ways Jon could have gone about getting Marsh, and people like him, on his side. The Watch is highly fragmented -- from men like Mormont to Marsh to those that killed Mormont... and a leader's responsibility is not just setting a direction (which Jon did) but motivating those below him to follow. He didn't work a lot on the latter point. He was dictatorial, even with his friends. At times he explained his point of view, but never listened.

Like I said, I don't think it makes Jon incompetent (no more than 80% of CEOs) or a bad person, just mostly inexperienced. And I admit my reading is colored by my personal experience, so Martin may be reading this going "NO!"

But it really lines in with some of the questions that are the strong thematical core of the entire series: Where does power lay? What makes a good leader? What compromises must a leader make?

Jon relies on his status as Lord Commander, ignoring the moral of Varys' riddle. When men stop believing in you, you start losing power. But it's also a point towards what makes a good leader -- Jon learned how to win over people in Book One, but he applying those principles in mass is difficult. He's not the first leader to focus on What to Do as opposed to getting others to execute that what. Finding out and executing on what motivates the "sellsword" is key.

I think it parallels nicely with Dany, who had a seismic shift at the end of Storms when she realized that she wanted to be a leader to help her people rather than to just take what is hers (much like Stannis saw the need). It's not that she was an awful person before, but she never really focused on what kind of ruler she would be. But in Dance, she begins to stumble on the practical issues of being a leader of a region that does not want her, that is not like her. Again, dictating cultural norms, not picking her battles, no compromise until it was too late created a situation where she had rebellion. The power resided in the collective will of the ruled.

In pure Martin form, there's no easy answer here. Should Dany or Jon have compromised more? Could they have convinced people? Would we respect them more if they compromised and accomplished something but allowed Wildlings to die or some people to continue being enslaved? Aren't these the same questions we ask of our politicians? Obama spent his political capital on a high risk-high reward strategy (Health Care) and if you believe in that sort of thing, it's the same discussion: was some change worth not getting everything you wanted? Was getting everything you wanted ever going to happen in such a short time frame? In his compromises, has Obama "betrayed" the left or done the best with what he's had? (Note: I don't want to get into a debate on Obama, just pointing out that Jon and Dany are largely facing similar questions, couched in the world of Westeros).

[Jabronius Maximus]

I think this has been thrown out there before, but what if Bloodraven orchestrated the whole mutiny thing? I'm not entirely sure on the details of how he could, but this would be interesting. BR may know that R+L=J (if it is true), and through his countless hours of spying, he probably also knows that Melisandre has a fetish for king's blood. What could be more kingly than the blood of the Targs and Kings of Winter?

Through her fires, maybe Mel would eventually figure out Jon's heritage (if it is R+L=J), and have an olympic sized rotisserie oven ready for him. By somehow pulling the strings on this 'assassination', BR probably just killed (?) Jon to save his life.

I think Jon's not dead, just comatose. I don't think it matters anyhow. The next step for BR would be to get Jon the hell away from Mel. How would he do that? With Jon dead/comatose, BR could pay him a Bran-like visit, and fill him in on what's going on - and tell him to come to the cave, or to just gtfo the wall. Jon, with a large wildling host backing him up, could do pretty much anything he wants, and getting away from Mel would seem easy enough.

Also, Bran could speak to Jon to help convince him. Here's where I think BR/CoTF may have some ulterior/unknown motives, and they might not be all good - they clearly have a trump card (Bran) to get Jon to do whatever they tell him. (This is a discussion for another thread though, I think)