Howland Reed and Arthur Dayne

[Urien the Ragged]

if Howland was the little crannogman in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Lyanna was the Knight herself, Howland would have recognized her in her armor as she fought against the Knights of the Usurper at the Tower of Joy, protecting her son.

[Bran The Burner]

They were fighting with unfair odds, but you won't believe that they would use a trick to win....OK.

Do you know for a fact that the 7 fought at the same time the 3 KG? You could even say that that's most probably what happenned but until someone who was there tell us exactly what happenned we only have theories and mine as improbable as it may be is based on the fact that Ned always delt with honor even when his life was at stake.

[corbon]

if Howland was the little crannogman in the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree and Lyanna was the Knight herself, Howland would have recognized her in her armor as she fought against the Knights of the Usurper at the Tower of Joy, protecting her son.

Unfortunately she didn't have a breastplate stretcher...

[uncle fester]

How do we know Lyanna Stark wasn't involved with the Ned-Athur Dayne thing btw?

She died shortly after. Any chance she got killed by accident there?

Edit: see it's been discussed on page 2.

[Team Wildings]

My theory on how the fight went down, wrong as it may be is.

Ned choose the men to fight along side him and he probably knew who they were going against. I think Ned came prepared for this fight and was ready as you can be when facing the best swordsmen in the land.

I think the other 2 Kingsguards died first leaving Ser Arthur Dayne vs Ned, HR and I am guessing probably 2 more Northmen who survived the initial attack. Again we don't know the order of who died but this is how it happened in my head. Then Ser Arthur Dayne kills the first 2 Northman this is a mini battle not a tournament. Ned wouldn't just let Dayne kill his men one by one, they are all probably attacking him at the same time. Until it was just Ned and HR, I am guessing HR has some cool tricks hence why he is there. Ned takes Dayne one on one for awhile. I know Ned was the shy wolf and his brother was the better swordsmen but that is who, Ned trained with all the time which lets me believe that Ned was a good fighter. He wasn't known all over because he didn't do any Tournaments but I still think he was good. (No real proof besides training with his brother and help winning a rebellion). HR then does something cool like turn mud into water and Dayne actually drowns.

The End.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Think about thier conditions though, maybe they were hungry or tired or grieving from the lost war. No telling how long they were at TOJ, were they well supplied? Obiously not if it was only them three left and L Strak was dying in the dorne sun. Ned was fighting for his sister and Roberts Kingdom and his companions were fighting for ned. What exactly were the KG fighting for?

In all likelihood, the safety of the legal heir to the throne. ;)

And I don't think that Lyanna took part in the fight.

[Urien the Ragged]

In all likelihood, the safety of the legal heir to the throne. ;)

And I don't think that Lyanna took part in the fight.

Viserys was at the Tower of Joy?

[Claude The Sweetling]

If L Stark was pregnant, it would not be the heir, it would be a bastard, and Viserys would be the heir, then Dany T. Rheagar T died before his wife, and as far as i know there was no divorce in those days. The KG even metioned that Viserys was far away and yet they still would not serrender to Ned.

I think Ned would have left Howland Reed behind if he was not good for something because He had only warriors with him. And who is the "they" that discovered ned holding a bloody Lyanna? If only Howland survived, who discovered them?

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

If L Stark was pregnant, it would not be the heir, it would be a bastard, and Viserys would be the heir, then Dany T. Rheagar T died before his wife, and as far as i know there was no divorce in those days. The KG even metioned that Viserys was far away and yet they still would not serrender to Ned.

A popular theory is that Rhaegar was in a polygamous marriage with Lyanna. There is precedent for this in the Targaryen history, though not recently. In Ned's fever dream, he actively wonders why the heck there are 3 Kingsguard guarding his sister, when Viserys is far away. The implication is that the legitimate heir was in the Tower. I didn't get this either until I reread AGoT, but there is a strong subtext there if you look for it.

[FrequencyDip]

... until someone who was there tell us exactly what happenned we only have theories ...

Right on. I love hearing about all of the possibilities. Hearing other people's stuff get pissed down - harshly - is a bit of a bummer, sometimes. I mean, this is fiction. Pretty much anything goes.

So, Reed being there at the Tower of Joy. That means its him, Eddard, a baby, some horses, and possibly a nursemaid, right? They all go back to Starfell and take the sword. Why not take the corpse of Arthur Dayne? In some cases (Winterfell) the body seems important to collect, in other cases, not so much. Has that ever been discussed? I mean, there seems to be means to carry it.

[pitchfork]

Really? I genuinely thought that the matter had been settled — Lyanna, whom we know was a skilled rider, jousted anonymously and withdrew when her identity was in danger of getting discovered. Rhaegar found out it was her and that was what started their infatuation, and he crowned her queen of love and beauty as a "consolation" and a tip of the hat because she couldn't finish the competition.

I didn't know anyone still thought it was Howland, but all right. :D

Well my crackpot theory is that Bran is the Knight of the laughing tree (no, not Brandon: Bran). No reasons given due to mild spoilers for ADWD (which would only count as reasons if you subscribe to crackpot theories anyway :-) )

- Chris

[daenerys snow]

A popular theory is that Rhaegar was in a polygamous marriage with Lyanna. There is precedent for this in the Targaryen history, though not recently. In Ned's fever dream, he actively wonders why the heck there are 3 Kingsguard guarding his sister, when Viserys is far away. The implication is that the legitimate heir was in the Tower. I didn't get this either until I reread AGoT, but there is a strong subtext there if you look for it.

i can see that. rhaegar probably realised that aegon was not likely the prince that was promised and seeing as how princess elia could not have any more children after aegon's birth it makes sense that he would borrow a page from aegon the conqueror's marital playbook and wed more than one woman at a time.

as for arthur dayne, everyone makes like he was the ultimate pwnzor and unbeatable by ned and howland. we never get to see any flashbacks of his fighting. we only hear people talking about him after his death and people have a way of lionising the dead, making them out to be better/more awesome than they actually were in life. as to jaime's references to him, well that could just be a combo of hero worship (he knighted him!) and an attempt to take ser loras down a peg (loras' ego is rather inflated) by relating the tales of kingsguards who came before him.

[Vympel]

Why all this arrow talk? The Kingsguard were already outnumbered. Clearly, Ned and his men ganged up on them and killed them. Dayne was probably getting the better of Ned, then Reed shoved a sword into Dayne's back / neck / armpit etc. Its not rocket science.

This isn't a joust, its combat. 2 on 1 isn't dishonorable, its smart.

[Biffyc7]

I don't want to distract in the crackpot zone and threadjack, but, the way I've looked at it was that Ned and his team engaged to some extent but, ultimately, the action stopped as he realized his sister was dead, dying, pleading, or giving birth. This then turned the events into more of a discussion/negotiation more than anything. Maybe Howland suggested that Dayne and whoever else survived got the hell out of Westeros? I mean, the tide on the war was turning and these were men of honor. Not that giving up and fleeing is honorable but maybe it somehow came to lives being spared instead of spent.

Obviously, somebody died in the interaction: Ned built cairns from the stones of the Tower. But, Dayne was also way kick-ass and Ned was not even on his brother's level. I've never thought Ned would have been able to kill Dayne, no matter what the circumstances were. My vote is that Howland talked everbody down, chilled them out, and then helped put together the next steps to preserve and hide whatever people came out of that Tower (baby and whatnot). Shoot, maybe Dayne is in the swamp with Howland right now!

The other sidestep: Maybe Ned warged out into on the KG or something and Howland helped chill him out and get back to his own self.

Can't stop thinking about Ned jumping ship just before payne took his head off... will haunt me for a while I guess

[TKO]

i always saw it as when Ned was fighting Dayne, Howland was fighting the old bull. During Howlands fight he may have saw Ned being overpowered and maybe sent a throwing knife Daynes way, leaving Ned to run him through.

[Leuf]

Dayne and Reed were lovers and the Sword of the Morning couldn't bring himself to kill Howland.

[MinotaurWarrior]

I always figured that Howland saved Ned, not slew the Sword. Perhaps Arthur was going to stab Ned in the back as Ned fought Gerold, but Howland pushed Ned out of the way. Howland clearly wasn't a fighter, and if they were using his full skillset (shit arrows included), there wouldn't have been any sort of face-to-face confrontation. The Ironmen at Moat Cailan don't have any ToJ-style chats with the Crannogmen harassing them.

Crackpot theory: is it ever actually confirmed that any of the combatants at the ToJ died? Perhaps Howland actually negotiated a peaceful end to combat, and made the three kingsguard realize that, as Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, Viserys was their king, and it was their sworn duty to run off and defend him. Perhaps some obscure character is actually Arthur Dayne.

[FrequencyDip]

Crackpot theory: is it ever actually confirmed that any of the combatants at the ToJ died? Perhaps Howland actually negotiated a peaceful end to combat, and made the three kingsguard realize that, as Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, Viserys was their king, and it was their sworn duty to run off and defend him. Perhaps some obscure character is actually Arthur Dayne.

I agree with this. I really think that some variation of this is going to turn out to be true.

[Claude The Sweetling]

Jory Cassels father was there, wasnt he. And he is dead right.

[Tyroshi Sellsword]

Crackpot theory: is it ever actually confirmed that any of the combatants at the ToJ died? Perhaps Howland actually negotiated a peaceful end to combat, and made the three kingsguard realize that, as Aerys and Rhaegar were dead, Viserys was their king, and it was their sworn duty to run off and defend him. Perhaps some obscure character is actually Arthur Dayne.

It says that Ned tore down the ToJ and built eight cairns there out of the stones, to bury the dead. So I think they're dead.