Orson Scott Card 'updates' Hamlet For Modern Sensibilites, Hilarity Ensues

[Contrarius]

ETA: Hold up. What's with all the disappointed commenters saying the enjoy his books? Dude wrote ONE book that was enjoyable, Enders Game, and we've gone over how creepy it really is.

Not true. He wrote several very good books. I, for one, enjoyed a lot of his early fantasy, in addition to a couple of the Ender books. For years I thought of him as my favorite author -- and my opinion of his writing didn't change because of his politics, either.

Incidentally, I heard him speak live, in Utah, roughly 20 years ago. I was very saddened (and surprised, at that time) by wht he said.

[lokisnow]

If OSC is desperate to reiterate that homosexuality IS a choice, then he is saying that he wants to take away another American's freedom to choose. And we all know that stealing someone's Freedom is UnAmurcan.

Fixed that for you.

Not true. He wrote several very good books. I, for one, enjoyed a lot of his early fantasy, in addition to a couple of the Ender books. For years I thought of him as my favorite author -- and my opinion of his writing didn't change because of his politics, either.

Incidentally, I heard him speak live, in Utah, roughly 20 years ago. I was very saddened (and surprised, at that time) by wht he said.

If possible, Song Master, Hart's Hope, Worthing Chronicle and Planet Called Treason are even more creepy than Ender's Game.

I heard him speak about ten years ago, and he said that a committed homosexual couple was far less of a threat to society than a divorced married couple. I know now just how loaded that sort of statement is, he still thinks of people not in a traditional marriage as a certain level of threat, and can scale them against each other.

[Sci-2]

Fair enough. I tried some of his other stuff, even before I knew his politics, and it never worked for me. Wish he'd just fade away already...

Geez, bad enough the World Fantasy Award is Lovecraft's head, you know?

[Grack21]

Fair enough. I tried some of his other stuff, even before I knew his politics, and it never worked for me. Wish he'd just fade away already...

Geez, bad enough the World Fantasy Award is Lovecraft's head, you know?

Yeah. I think thats why the racism/sexism in Robert E Howards stuff doesn't bother me as much(it does, bit I own some of his work, Lovecraft, no fucking way), cause, man, Lovecraft. holy shit.

Ahem, as for OSC earlier books...........I do not like. I used to like A Memory of Earth until I found out it was lifted DIRECTLY from the Book of fucking Mormon, and don't get me started on that Alvin Maker shit.

[Kynokephalos]

I'm still shaking my head about the whole "It's a choice!" - " No, it's not!" debate. Because that is IMO rather irrelevant because even if it were a choice it would not be a bad one. The debate seems to imply the contrary and argues about possible exculpatory factors.

[Sci-2]

With Lovecraft, it's not justifiable but what becomes challenging is, as a friend of mine who is a fan and black, said - "If Lovecraft wasn't xenophobic to the point of insanity, he wouldn't have been able to write what he wrote."

Now, making his head the WFA is unnecessary. I'm sure future award winners wouldn't mind seeing China's sexy, disarming smile cast in pewter....

[Contrarius]

I'm still shaking my head about the whole "It's a choice!" - " No, it's not!" debate. Because that is IMO rather irrelevant because even if it were a choice it would not be a bad one. The debate seems to imply the contrary and argues about possible exculpatory factors.

Exactly. Who cares whether it's a choice or not? There's nothing morally wrong with it, as long as two (or more!) consenting adults are involved it isn't anybody's business -- whether it's a choice or not.

It's times like these when I ponder the differences between Libertarians and "conservatives".

[automne]

It's been a while since I last went to The US. I didn't realize you guys were on the brink of disaster because of the dysfunctional leftists.

First time in my life I can proudly say about a writer that I will never read any of his books. OSC won't get a single cent from me, that's the least I can do

[Datepalm]

I've read quite a bit of Card, in my younger days - like 6 Ender books (some of those were Bean books, I guess,) most of the Space-Opera -Book-of-Mormon thing (like 4 or 5 books) and I think I read a good chunk of Alvin at some point. ALL of them are creeptastic in various special ways. The reason Ender is successful is becuase he covers up the creepy reasonably well there.

[lokisnow]

I haven't bought any of his work for five years or more, but I collected a lot of his books ten years ago. Even got several of them signed.

I'm torn now as to whether I should sell them all now, or wait until november/december of 2013 when the price goes up with the release of the Ender's Game movie.

[JamieM]

"It's about giving the left the power to force anti-religious values on our children. Once they legalize gay marriage, it will be the bludgeon they use to make sure that it becomes illegal to teach traditional values in the schools."

No, it's not. At all. It's about treating people like human beings, instead of second class citizens without equal rights. It's called being civilised and free-thinking enough to understand that your own views should not have to apply to everyone, and that the world may have evolved from times when Biblical standards were set. It's about being tolerant to a group of people that cause some of the least problems to the world but are given some of the most shit - even more so if you have the audacity to be gay *and* a woman... gasp..

The fact that I'm not even gay or have any vested interest in this, means I have even more of a responsibility to say this is wrong, because all I get out of it is the chance to live in a world with as much equality as possible, and to be a little less ashamed of our society.

I feel sad for Orson Scott Card that, not only is he creatively bankrupt, but he's such a twisted mass of repugnant fibre.

P.S " I have plenty of gay friends" - SHENANIGANS.

[JamieM]

I haven't bought any of his work for five years or more, but I collected a lot of his books ten years ago. Even got several of them signed.

I'm torn now as to whether I should sell them all now, or wait until november/december of 2013 when the price goes up with the release of the Ender's Game movie.

I'm still going to like Enders Game and will probably see the movie, on the basis that I doubt any of my ticket money goes to Card, presumably he's already been paid for the rights.

EDIT: Actually, now that I've thought on it some more, I suppose if I support a movie which then becomes successful, it's possible Card could get some big sequel money... but then is that on my conscience or the film studio's?

[Mr. E]

EDIT: Actually, now that I've thought on it some more, I suppose if I support a movie which then becomes successful, it's possible Card could get some big sequel money... but then is that on my conscience or the film studio's?

Well, not to join this fray, but if the film's successful at all his books sales are going to skyrocket, and that's not even talking about a sequel.

[Ormond]

I'm still going to like Enders Game and will probably see the movie, on the basis that I doubt any of my ticket money goes to Card, presumably he's already been paid for the rights.

EDIT: Actually, now that I've thought on it some more, I suppose if I support a movie which then becomes successful, it's possible Card could get some big sequel money... but then is that on my conscience or the film studio's?

If you want to assuage any guilt, just give some pro-same-sex-marriage organization at least twice the amount of the ticket price. :)

[JamieM]

Well, not to join this fray, but if the film's successful at all his books sales are going to skyrocket, and that's not even talking about a sequel.

True, and that's a concern, but it has to be at the conscience of the buyer. If anyone asks me for my opinion, however, well...

If you want to assuage any guilt, just give some pro-same-sex-marriage organization at least twice the amount of the ticket price. :)

I like the way you think.

[Sci-2]

Actually, Card's such a kook it might be good to have him on the public stage. I recall once he, in one article, simultaneously lamented both abortion and the fact society stopped shaming pregnant, unmarried women.

In fact, if reporters were smart, they could easily show how Card's ilk have no plans to stop at gay marriage in their sexual policing.

[Instupituous]

You know, being a straight male and assuming that all of those saying homosexuality is a choice, you would think that they'd realize how hard it would be to just wake up one day and decide to force yourself to not be attracted to women anymore. As if you could just will away your biology like that.

Can you imagine how useful it would be for ascetic Christian teenagers who are being tempted to fornicate to just...will all of their sexuality away and become asexual? I wish I had known that my sexuality was a choice five years ago, damnit.

[Sci-2]

There's also the fact that OSC has said even if its biological, one can refuse to cater to biology....and something about lions eating their young. It's actually hilarious to read some of his articles, when you realize he's just a silly old cook.

I'd be curious as to his opinion on gender roles, or is it only the gays who need to transcend their biology.

[JamieM]

There's also the fact that OSC has said even if its biological, one can refuse to cater to biology....and something about lions eating their young. It's actually hilarious to read some of his articles, when you realize he's just a silly old cook.

I'd be curious as to his opinion on gender roles, or is it only the gays who need to transcend their biology.

Interesting, because he is also quoted as saying:

"What these dictator-judges do not seem to understand is that their authority extends only as far as people choose to obey them. How long before married people answer the dictators thus: Regardless of law, marriage has only one definition, and any government that attempts to change it is my mortal enemy. I will act to destroy that government and bring it down, so it can be replaced with a government that will respect and support marriage, and help me raise my children in a society where they will expect to marry in their turn. Biological imperatives trump laws. American government cannot fight against marriage and hope to endure. If the Constitution is defined in such a way as to destroy the privileged position of marriage, it is that insane Constitution, not marriage, that will die."

If I am to take Card at face value, and believe in the existence of his many gay friends (and believe they are actual friends, rather than mildly tolerated acquaintances), I wonder what on Earth they make of such public anti-gay rhetoric, and if they've ever openly spoken out against it. It's fascinating to me, because I don't believe I'm capable of having a friendship with someone who is in such direct opposition to the way I choose to find my happiness in life.

As for gender roles, I would have to guess that his position is going to be largely influenced by Mormon ideology, which I believe would generally place the Man as the head of the family and decision maker, and the Woman as the home-maker (for want of a better term) and mother etc I emphasise the word "guess" here, and would be happy to be educated otherwise.

[Jon AS]

If I am to take Card at face value, and believe in the existence of his many gay friends (and believe they are actual friends, rather than mildly tolerated acquaintances)

You know, I don't have such a hard time believing that he believes that he has gay friends, but I wonder if said people consider him a friend.