Things You Don't Like In Asoiaf

[Nnorb]

The usual host of niggles, but 3 things stand out.

Shitty prose. "The sight of their arousal was arousing." "The more she drank the more she shat." Ladies and gentlemen, the American Tolkien!

Lack of editing. This, at least, is largely the fault of the audience, who consistently flock to thousand-page doorstoppers filled with pointless waffling.

But these are criticisms you can level at anyone if you're determined enough. The one truly concerning thing about GRRM's writing is that the presence of Bronn has been steadily diminishing over the course of the series, a turn of events that can only be explained by some obscure and malevolent disease of the mind. This, more than anything else, bodes ill for the series.

...

Also there's the thing where random lesbian sex scenes are described in fetishistic detail, while gay dudes are never even mentioned directly. Smooth one George.

[seanbean4lyfe]

Shitty prose. "The sight of their arousal was arousing." "The more she drank the more she shat." Ladies and gentlemen, the American Tolkien!

:rofl:

[Alexia]

I honestly think that Myrcella's disfigurement was GRRM taking some revenge on the Lannisters for how they treated Sansa. Thus, Cersei is in a panic over how her daughter's in-laws will treat her and lo and behold, she winds up disfigured. The tide of the tale is turning against them now.

I dislike a fair number of the disfigurements, but Jeyne Poole really stands out for me. I can only assume she will lose that nose to frostbite and I have no idea of why it is necessary to have the girl forced into prostitution, sexually tortured, and then disfigured.

[PatrickStormborn]

Most of mine have already been mentioned.

Firstly, I have to say that I really hated the new POV characters in AFFC and ADWD. The Damphair and Areo Hotah's chapters were especially boring. I didn't mind Asha or Arienne having chapters, but I don't understand why GRRM didn't just title their chapters with their names. In ADWD, Asha had more POV chapters than Melisandre, yet Melisandre's chapter wasn't titled "The Red Woman" or "The King's Shadowbinder", etc. I really hope that, if/when HBO reaches AFFC/ADWD, they cut most of Dorne and the Iron Islands. In my opinion the only key chapter from the Iron Islands was the Kingsmoot, where we met Euron. Similarly, I thought Arienne's chapters were the only important Dornish ones, such as the Queenmaker and when her father tells her about his plan.

Another thing I dislike is how I no longer fear for the lives of the characters. Well, I do, but not as much as I used to. And I also dislike how AFFC and ADWD don't really have conclusions. There are just too many cliffhangers. For this reason I'd like to see Jon Snow stay dead, although it's very unlikely.

Of course I also hate the animal cruelty and rape (particularly of Lollys), but I can see why they're in the story.

The only other thing I can think of right now isn't really to do with the story and is more to do with the fandom. I hate the idea that Aerys might have fathered Tyrion. If it turns out to be true, I will lose a lot of respect for GRRM as a writer. It would just be too cliche and would completely destroy the whole dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin that has been set up since AGOT: that Tyrion is the Lannister most like Tywin, but Tywin cannot accept him because of his physical appearance.

I don't think GRRM would ever go down that route, though.

ETA: Oh, and Brienne getting part of her face eaten by Biter made me physically sick. She just can't catch a break, despite being one of the few nice, honorable characters left in Westeros.

[Winterfell is Burning]

About the Iron Islands and Dorne- We needed a POV in each place, but instead we got 3 for each. Everything there could have been told by Asha and Arianne's POV, no need for Aeron, Victarion, Aris Oakheart, and Areo Hotah.

[MyDogIsNamedDanerys]

The tendency to maim/use violence on characters in disgusting ways seemingly just for shock value. Biter/Brienne, Tyrion's nose, Reek.

I also hate how much the appearance of characters is endlessly dwelled upon, especially for ugly characters. For Tyrion, I understand it (he's not actually that ugly, and people rarely actually describe him as such other than talking about how he's, well a dwarf, he just spends a lot of time thinking about how ugly he is because he has self-esteem issues). But for other ugly characters it comes from outside, and comes across as exaggerated to the point of silliness. I don't need to hear over and over and over again about how Brienne's face looks like she was punched too many times or that Jorah is literally hairier than an actual bear.

A few other descriptive things also give me the willies. Like how every time we hear about Dany getting dressed up we have to hear about how her handmaids put one last dot of perfume "down there, between her lower lips." :ack: Guh.

[Woman of War]

Hi,

I miss to read more about art and music in Westeros and Essos. In the books many people of influence, even educated nobles like Tyrion, seem to look down at " singers", there seems to be no culture of patrons for music, theater and art. There is Rhaegar, though. But where are the "Medicis" to support painting and sculpture, who promotes John Dowland and Hans Holbein? What is the role of the different religions, the church being a main source of inspiration in all aspects of art, even an agnostic like me has to recognize it. Admittedly the setting is not yet Renaissance and westeros is not Italy, but...

Maybe not during wartime, but before, westeros is a very old culture, there must have happened at least something.

And beyond the narrow sea art and culture seem so much more refined.

If this has already bee discussed, sorry, but I am new to this forum and somehow the search function doesn't work for me....

[Greasy Chin]

I know it's beating a dead horse, but the thing that disappoints me most about these books is that they never end. Do you remember how satisfied you were when Frodo sailed to the West? How good it felt in your heart when the Little Engine got to the top of the hill? How final things were at the end of Macbeth and everybody was dead and stayed that way (Banquo excluded)? GRRM is robbing us of that important part of the story where it ENDS. I totally understand why it is being done ($), and for all we know the editors are the reason there's no ending. I read Dance this past week, hoping beyond hope that something would get resolved and bring at least some thread of the narrative to an end... disappointment was the only thing I took away from the last pages of that book.

But thanks for the ride, George.

-Joseph

[MinotaurWarrior]

Also there's the thing where random lesbian sex scenes are described in fetishistic detail, while gay dudes are never even mentioned directly. Smooth one George.

+1, absolutely agreed.

[HashRouge]

About the Iron Islands and Dorne- We needed a POV in each place, but instead we got 3 for each. Everything there could have been told by Asha and Arianne's POV, no need for Aeron, Victarion, Aris Oakheart, and Areo Hotah.

YES!! This annoys me so much!! Back in the early books, when we thought it was all about the Starks, we got used to only having POV characters in certain places and therefore finding out a lot of things as our characters did. So, we only knew what Robb was doing when Catelyn or Bran were with him and, although we got Davos to explain what Stannis was up to, we had no idea what Renly was doing. Why on earth we suddenly need not one, but THREE POV characters on both the Iron Islands and on Dorne I have no idea!

And I'm another one who really dislikes the way Lollys is treated in the books.

Goodness knows, I love them I really do, but there's also a LOT that I hate about them!

[seanbean4lyfe]

I think we can all agree (from what everyone has said) that we all dislike the overkill.

Everyone has been saying they dislike the excess rape/violence/disfigurment/POV chapters/zombies

when at one point they were somewhat valued...well at least the disfigurment characters. People seemed to think it was cool that the chacracters weren't save and could become maimed, but now...

I think the main thing to dislike is that at this point GRRM has gone overboard. At one point it was part of the strory, but now it's just in there for the sake of being there. But what can he do? The majority of the plot has this in it.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[ICE CROW]

The only things i agree with from reading these posts, are the fact that we don't need so many POV's from the Iron Islands and Dorne. Yet in ADWD

we only get 3 Bran Chapters, love him or hate him only 3 chapters

is unacceptable

[littlespider]

The only things i agree with from reading these posts, are the fact that we don't need so many POV's from the Iron Islands and Dorne. Yet in ADWD

we only get 3 Bran Chapters, love him or hate him only 3 chapters

is unacceptable

I'm with you, Ice Crow, and it's true in FFC as well.

Decreasing number of POVs from the characters we're already heavily invested in; increasing number of POVs from characters whom George does not develop enough to get us invested with the exception of Brienne (for me at least) and

Quentyn, and, well... Quentyn. I didn't even think Barristan was that well-developed

, and, most annoying:

INTRA-BOOK CLIFFHANGERS. I mentioned this in another thread. Inter-book cliffhangers are okay -- want to make me wait for 150 pages to find out if Arya is alive? (Though I knew she was anyway.) Fine, George, I'm cool with that. Making me wait YEARS AND YEARS to find out wtf happened to Brienne? Not cool.

[Greatjim]

I think the overkill is partly what makes the series so refreshing. Myrcella's disfigurement was necessary for creating the growing discord between King's Landing and Dorne. Knowing the series as we do you should probably be thankful George fell short of killing her off! Brienne Vs Biter was great, so horribly sad especially considering she's supposedly ugly enough as is and struggling to find her purpose in Westeros. And all the excessive rape is worth it just for Tyrion's one line about the septas probably begging for a good hard raping.

[Verboten]

I actually liked the Dorne and Greyjoy viewpoints, but hated Cersei's storyline. And honestly, I'd much prefer it if Dany was cut out of the first five books. Let her recline in the background as a legendary foe massing power, waking dragons, and conquering cities for the rulers of Westeros to worry over while they grow blind to the threats within their kingdom. Also it annoys me that Rhaegar is constantly portrayed as loved when he should be hated for starting the damn war in the first place.

[seanbean4lyfe]

I think the overkill is partly what makes the series so refreshing. Myrcella's disfigurement was necessary for creating the growing discord between King's Landing and Dorne. Knowing the series as we do you should probably be thankful George fell short of killing her off! Brienne Vs Biter was great, so horribly sad especially considering she's supposedly ugly enough as is and struggling to find her purpose in Westeros. And all the excessive rape is worth it just for Tyrion's one line about the septas probably begging for a good hard raping.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I don't think that. I was just seeing a trend in what peoplee had been saying. I honestly think the disfigurments have an intended impact...I don't believe they are jsut for the shock value.

[stormblast]

Deanerys. Her whole plot line. Wouldn't it be great if instead of a 15 years old brat who hatches some dragons and thinks of herself a "mother" to thousands of people we had

Young Griff/ Aegon's story with him reaching Westeros with the Golden Company and actually getting sh*t done?

Random deaths of important characters. I was relatively OK with the Red Wedding, not because I didn't lice Catlin, Robb and the whole "king in the north" thing, but because it was so powerful episode. Than Joffry had to die, and worst of all Tiwin, for no apparent reason. I didn't like where the plot went from there.

Tyrion surviving Asos and worse - giving us his totally uninteresting view of Essos.

"Grease/juice ran down his/her chin." uhg

[pleonasm]

Joffrey's death actually grates on me for a number of reasons.

Littlefinger's 'chaos' explanation for his motivation just doesn't make any sense. He is tied into the Lannisters (Tywin and Cersei especially) and clearly they owe him some great debts which he could leverage later. Destablizing a Lannister regime at the point, especially during a war, doesn't help him in the slightest especially given his end plan clearly will take years to play out (uniting the Vale and the North or some other concoction). In fact, it strengthen's Tywin's position as Hand of the King, who surely would have been a problematic ally/advesary than Joffrey.

Even if the Tyrell's would only committ to joing the cause if Joffrey was killed why wouldn't they wait until after the wedding? There is too much risk Tommen could then be promised to someone else. Ideally Margaery's gets pregnant and Joffrey falls off his horse while hunting in the Kingswood with Loras.

I always got the impression George felt he had to give something nice to the audience after putting the Starks through the Red Wedding or wanted to pull out another amazing twist, but this one just felt false to me.

[seanbean4lyfe]

Deanerys. Her whole plot line. Wouldn't it be great if instead of a 15 years old brat who hatches some dragons and thinks of herself a "mother" to thousands of people we had

Young Griff/ Aegon's story with him reaching Westeros with the Golden Company and actually getting sh*t done?

Random deaths of important characters. I was relatively OK with the Red Wedding, not because I didn't lice Catlin, Robb and the whole "king in the north" thing, but because it was so powerful episode. Than Joffry had to die, and worst of all Tiwin, for no apparent reason. I didn't like where the plot went from there.

Tyrion surviving Asos and worse - giving us his totally uninteresting view of Essos.

"Grease/juice ran down his/her chin." uhg

I respectfully disagree about Twyins death. it was an important device for Tyrion's character arc.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I respectfully disagree about Twyins death. it was an important device for Tyrion's character arc.

And to end any hope of stability for the Lannister regime.