The missing sex scene

[Tyrionthebest]

I liked Renly/Loras on the show. It made for good t.v. They have one of the few truly romantic relationships in the series.

However, the less sex scenes GRMM writes the better although I need to read Jon and Dany's because I want to know how she gets him to have sex with her.

That would the the worst shit ever to happen in this series especially if R+L=J is true. Yes i know that Targs practice incest but is still gross and especially doesn't fit Jon's character .

[lady crackhead]

I believe it's meant to irritate the reader

Extra points for the funny.

So we can we think of any other missing intimate scenes that GRRM cheated us on :)

He cheated us on Theon & Asha. They had the best sexual chemistry of anyone else in the books, hands down, that was going to be a fucking to live on in the halls of infamy ...

I dont care that Theon has no penis now, it 's never too late to redress this.

In ADWD one of the brothers reacted a little bit too emotionally when he found out about the death of a ranging party. His first reaction was to think of Jack, even though nine were missing. And when he finds out that yes Jack's head was one of the ones on the spikes he bursts into tears. Of course, this is all just speculation on my part.

I know theyre supposedly tough and everything, but they all lost their families, etc Id think a friend might take that position, and its not unusual for someone to cry like that after hearing their platonic buddy just died. But I like your speculation, because it makes the characters and the story more realistic & relatable. Homosexuality on the Wall really is a glaring omission and it strikes me as so cowardly for the author to ignore the whole shebang and then toss in a badly named guy (Satin) who had gaysex ... in his Before life.

No one's team Roose and Fat Walda?

This would be more arresting an image on the show rather than in the books. I was sort of irritated by Roose's baring himself to Theon in the books (it's just begging to become a sexposition between Roose & Theon in the show). I dont really want to know how Roose makes love. Im guessing it's very subtly, though, since neither of his previous wives made a sound.

However, the less sex scenes GRMM writes the better although I need to read Jon and Dany's because I want to know how she gets him to have sex with her.

How does the most beeeouutiful laytee in the whole wurl get him to sleep with her? The same boring way she does with the other guys. She just shows up in a scene with hard nipples.

[The Brooding Wolf]

Considering GRRM is a heterosexual male, I don't know how well he could do an intimate gay sex scene. Cersei and Dany didn't particularly enjoy theirs, but Renly and Loras probably had a lot of fun.

Actually, I rather liked that George never completely spelled out "Hey guys, Renly and Loras are in love."

[Queen Cersei I]

To answer this question once and for all: NO, there should not be a Renly and Loras sex scene. Why? Because to do so would ruin the only true, beautiful storybook romance in this entire series.

In the past I’ve expressed my admiration for the Renly/ Loras love story. In a series filled with rape, incest, pedophilia, coercion, and fat pink masts, this is the one bright spot of true, perfect love. And one of the reasons why it’s so perfect? Because we don’t know everything about it. Like the fairy tale princes and princesses of our childhood’s, Renly and Loras is true, beautiful, and “pure.” A lot of things—their fights, their relationship issues, and, yes, the actual, physical sex—are simply left out, because they are not necessary for the simple truth of the story.

I mean, do we ever see Tristan hog piling Isseult? Lancelot and Guineviere going at it like bunnies? There’s a reason why the Romeo and Juliet sex scene takes place offstage.

When I picture REnly and Loras, I see them frolicking on fluffy white clouds, embracing and kissing as rose petals fall from the sky and millions of little skylarks gather around them to sing. I do not need a detailed, account of who put what where and how many times, as various bodily fluids spurt forth. I have no desire to hear of Renly’s “fat pink mast” or Loras’s “Myrish Swamp.” (Nor would I like for GRRM to get “poetic” with their sex scene, as he has tried to do in the past.

Asha in ADWD—“Her cunt became the whole world.” :shocked: :stillsick:

Wow, as a woman, I must say that's psychologically, that's just.... yeah. : :rolleyes:

In short: though I’m all for a gay sex scene, I don’t want GRRM to corrupt the perfection that is RenlyLoras.

And also: In case you haven’t noticed, I think the Renly Loras pairing is the True Love Story For Our Times.

[Queen Cersei I]

Instead we get two lesbian scenes - Cersei with Taena and Dany with her handmaiden that are so gratuitous (Cersei's more so) as to be laughable, and neither Cersei nor Dany even enjoy the encounters.

Also interesting—the lesbian scenes both feature gorgeous young heterosexual females “experimenting” on another gorgeous female, and then promptly concluding that guys are way better, and nothing can satisfy a woman like the penis.

However, I do think the scenes are there for a purpose. Though no one ever brings this up/ acknowledges it, I think there’s supposed to be a definite parallel between the two scenes, intended to illustrate the differences between Cersei and Dany’s characters. In both scenes, a beautiful, heterosexual woman feels horny/ curious, and ends up trying to have some fun with a similarly beautiful female serving her. The way the two act in these scenes is indicative of their greater character arc. As in her marriage, Dany plays the traditionally (passive) female role, laying back and letting Doreah finger fuck her (that’s not even the way females generally masturbate, but whatever.) She ends up with satisfaction and a great orgasm, a parallel to her happy, satisfactory marriage, where she submitted to Drogo, and found love and happiness.

Meanwhile, Cersei tried to play the active, powerful, “male” role, as she so “evilly” did in her marriage with Robert. She ends up with a ton of sexual frustration, and no orgasm. And is made to look crazy/unnatural/ evil, once again. This reflects her performance in her marriage with Robert, where she rebelled and unnaturally refused to have his children. (The detailed description of her wanking off Robert and then eating his spunk is made to make Cersei look evil, unnatural, and generally crazy. ) Observe Cersei’s inner monologue when she’s trying to screw/ dominate Taena: “She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and my fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.” AFFC, P. 693

Yikes. It seems to me that Cersei’s demonized for trying to play the male role, here and in the rest of her life. Her rebellion against her husband, her refusal to bear his children, and her “masculine” desire for power are all portrayed as wicked, stupid, and unnatural. Of course, there are many other things Cersei is demonized for, but her rebellion against her husband and her desire to assume the “masculine” position of power are definitely two of them.

[Cotter_Pyke]

I'm still waiting for the Shitmouth spear buggering scene!

:drool:

[brashcandy]

Also interesting—the lesbian scenes both feature gorgeous young heterosexual females “experimenting” on another gorgeous female, and then promptly concluding that guys are way better, and nothing can satisfy a woman like the penis.

However, I do think the scenes are there for a purpose. Though no one ever brings this up/ acknowledges it, I think there’s supposed to be a definite parallel between the two scenes, intended to illustrate the differences between Cersei and Dany’s characters. In both scenes, a beautiful, heterosexual woman feels horny/ curious, and ends up trying to have some fun with a similarly beautiful female serving her. The way the two act in these scenes is indicative of their greater character arc. As in her marriage, Dany plays the traditionally (passive) female role, laying back and letting Doreah finger fuck her (that’s not even the way females generally masturbate, but whatever.) She ends up with satisfaction and a great orgasm, a parallel to her happy, satisfactory marriage, where she submitted to Drogo, and found love and happiness.

Meanwhile, Cersei tried to play the active, powerful, “male” role, as she so “evilly” did in her marriage with Robert. She ends up with a ton of sexual frustration, and no orgasm. And is made to look crazy/unnatural/ evil, once again. This reflects her performance in her marriage with Robert, where she rebelled and unnaturally refused to have his children. (The detailed description of her wanking off Robert and then eating his spunk is made to make Cersei look evil, unnatural, and generally crazy. ) Observe Cersei’s inner monologue when she’s trying to screw/ dominate Taena: “She wanted to see if it would be as easy with a woman as it had always been with Robert. Ten thousand of your children perished in my palm, your Grace, she thought, slipping a third finger into Myr. Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and my fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.” AFFC, P. 693

Yikes. It seems to me that Cersei’s demonized for trying to play the male role, here and in the rest of her life. Her rebellion against her husband, her refusal to bear his children, and her “masculine” desire for power are all portrayed as wicked, stupid, and unnatural. Of course, there are many other things Cersei is demonized for, but her rebellion against her husband and her desire to assume the “masculine” position of power are definitely two of them.

I do agree there's a parallel at work, but I saw it a little differently than you did. Whilst both women do end up deciding that they prefer dick better, I saw their varying responses as being indicative of sexual dysfunction (with Cersei) whereas Dany is a sexually healthy young woman, who enjoys the experience for what it is but knows she could never be truly fulfilled by it.

I think that both Jaime and Cersei have done themselves a disservice in sleeping with each other, not because of the incest factor, but moreso because it has prevented them from really developing a functional sex life with anyone else. I don't think the dysfunction is as bad with Jaime as it is with Cersei though, because the reason he chooses not to sleep with anyone else is due to his wanting to be faithful to her. However, in Cersei's case, she is able to sleep with other men (and a woman) yet she experiences a profound lack of pleasure and satisfaction with anyone but Jaime.

Dany is able to go on and have sex with Daario and enjoy it immensely whereas Cersei is stuck to enduring sex with the Kettlebacks to further an objective. Sex becomes a chore, and I may be wrong on this, but in AFFC, when she mistakenly thinks that she's powerful and in control, she doesn't even really seem all that eager to have it with Jaime.

So this is why I think Cersei is suffering from severe sexual impairment. Sex has become so wrapped up in power struggles and manipulation that she can no longer take any pleasure from it. And her relationship with Robert was sexually abusive, yet even without that I wonder if Cersei would have ever found pleasure in her marital bed for long. So, the reason she enjoys sex with Jaime is because it's like having sex with herself - the ultimate masturbation.

She has only ever been valued as a sexual object essentially, so she sees it as both as the thing which oppresses her (her actual sex as a woman has stopped her from getting power that men can have, whereas she's just good for marriage and breeding) and paradoxically it's the thing that might liberate her (through sex she can attain the power she was denied). It's a small wonder then that she takes such perverse pleasure in licking Robert's sperm from her fingers; she has managed to please the patriarch without sacrificing herself.

[lady crackhead]

Also interesting—t....: “....Whilst you snored, I would lick your sons off my face and my fingers one by one, all those pale sticky princes. You claimed your rights, my lord, but in the darkness I would eat your heirs.”

Great post. This passage is one of the biggest wtf ones in all of the books, and it goes to show just how crazy and sexually repulsive he wanted to make her in AFFC... to say it beggars any kind of believability is a huge understatement. So let me get this right. The guy who's supposedly raping her from time to time, the one she has to work to jerk off like a slave so he doesnt impregnate her ... this is the guy she hates SO much..that she waits til he's asleep and eats his semen? Waits til he's asleep! This is nonsensical in so many ways. Burning hatred and disgust would make her get that stuff off of her asap. And into a Ramsay-approved scalding bath. Why you would wait to swallow semen that was produced not from intercourse, but from any other sex act , until after her husband/rapist is asleep makes no sense whatsoever. Did Robert expect her to inseminate herself from the issue of a bj , hj, tj ..whatever, and that swallowing would have been such an affront to him? COME ON. That scene also grossed me out not for the semen or the swallowing, but for the idea implied that that crazy &/or evil bitches do that, omgz!1! Maybe Martin's been watching too much porn and getting ideas.

[Garlan Tyrell]

So this is why I think Cersei is suffering from severe sexual impairment. Sex has become so wrapped up in power struggles and manipulation that she can no longer take any pleasure from it. And her relationship with Robert was sexually abusive, yet even without that I wonder if Cersei would have ever found pleasure in her marital bed for long. So, the reason she enjoys sex with Jaime is because it's like having sex with herself - the ultimate masturbation.

:agree: Cersei sees Jaime as another side to herself. It is why Jaime is the only one that gets to see her vulnerable side and why she feels "complete" with him. It's not the same with Daenerys, who is able to enjoy Sex as something pleasurable, whereas Cersei uses it as a power dynamic.

[Garlan Tyrell]

Great post. This passage is one of the biggest wtf ones in all of the books, and it goes to show just how crazy and sexually repulsive he wanted to make her in AFFC... to say it beggars any kind of believability is a huge understatement. So let me get this right. The guy who's supposedly raping her from time to time, the one she has to work to jerk off like a slave so he doesnt impregnate her ... this is the guy she hates SO much..that she waits til he's asleep and eats his semen? Waits til he's asleep! This is nonsensical in so many ways. Burning hatred and disgust would make her get that stuff off of her asap. And into a Ramsay-approved scalding bath. Why you would wait to swallow semen that was produced not from intercourse, but from any other sex act , until after her husband/rapist is asleep makes no sense whatsoever. Did Robert expect her to inseminate herself from the issue of a bj , hj, tj ..whatever, and that swallowing would have been such an affront to him? COME ON. That scene also grossed me out not for the semen or the swallowing, but for the idea implied that that crazy &/or evil bitches do that, omgz!1! Maybe Martin's been watching too much porn and getting ideas.

LOL.

But wait... isn't Robert so drunk that he has no clue whatsoever of what he's doing with Cersei while in bed?

[lady crackhead]

Cersei see's Jaime as another side to herself.

I have to say it, I see this so much around the board, and I just don't see it. She'd've stopped having sex with him long ago if he did it badly, so why dont you all just believe he's that good that she keeps going back?

Also, another view: Maybe she's sick of sex and wants to give it a rest? Outside of Jaime, she seems to have had a bad time sexually. You know, what with getting raped and all. Or if you dont believe she was "rape-raped", she still had to fuck and act as a sex slave for a man she loathed. Isnt that enough to put you off sex?

[lady crackhead]

LOL.

But wait... isn't Robert so drunk that he has no clue whatsoever of what he's doing with Cersei while in bed?

Exactly. Like I said, that passage made no sense in so many ways and was offensive because of the idea behind writing the character in this (disrespectlful) way. He jacked her into a caricature.

[The Anti-Targ]

I personally would have skipped any mano-a-mano love scenes from the book. But I have no objection to male gay, or hetero-women who get a kick out of male gay love scenes, fan service, as long as it's not contrived (pandering).

However I don't think a Renly or Loras PoV would add any real substance to the overall story, so I would object to having an entire PoV merely for the sake of gay sex fan service. At least with Dany and Cersei the lesbian scenes are not central to their story nor core to their character development.

I also won't criticise GRRM for being lopsided in the love scene department. He's a hetero guy (AFAIK) and so one could reasonably expect him to write sex scenes he would like to read. That's what I'd do. There's no need to put gay sex scenes in a book merely for PC purposes.

[NOc]

I'm completely fine with no description of gay sex in the books.

this

[brashcandy]

Exactly. Like I said, that passage made no sense in so many ways and was offensive because of the idea behind writing the character in this (disrespectlful) way. He jacked her into a caricature.

I actually think you're missing Martin's point here. I don't think he meant to portray Cersei in a bad light at all. Maybe it is disgusting to some readers, but it's a profoundly powerful act by Cersei - which highlights how she's managed to subvert Robert's sexual advances, and the societal expectation of women just lying back and taking the man's seed. By eating the sperm, Cersei is symbolically giving a big f**k you to societal norms, and I found it to be quite sublime.

And there is solid evidence that Cersei doesn't enjoy sex because she does not relate to it outside of a power dymamic. Jaime isn't the only man in the world who can get her off, it's that Jaime is the only man she doesn't have to "pretend" for (the power dymamic doesn't exist with him). When she begins to gain more power, she doesn't desire sex so much anymore and this is very significant. It's certainly ironic, as Cersei is always portrayed as this sex predator when she's really not.

How many times have we heard Cersei speak about how she and Jaime are so alike? That they came into the world together and they'll leave it together. Sex with Jaime is like having sex with herself and I think this is why she enjoys it so much. We know that Cersei is the one who feels the most disadvantaged by having been born a woman, and it's not a stretch to see that she's come to develop such an unhealthy relationship with sex. This is what she imagines that all the men wanted from her (and she may be right) and this is where she thinks her power lies. With Jaime, she is released from these burdens because he's so identical to her.

Perhaps this is why when he loses his hand Cersei is a bit repulsed; he no longer reflects her image back to her and she cannot achieve the kind of narcissitic, symbiotic pleasure that she was able to in the past. This, coupled with her growing independent power after Tywin's death and Tyrion's disappearance, makes her even less interested in sex with him.

[lady crackhead]

I actually think you're missing Martin's point here. I don't think he meant to portray Cersei in a bad light at all. Maybe it is disgusting to some readers, but it's a profoundly powerful act by Cersei - which highlights how she's managed to subvert Robert's sexual advances, and the societal expectation of women just lying back and taking the man's seed. By eating the sperm, Cersei is symbolically giving a big f**k you to societal norms, and I found it to be quite sublime.

And there is solid evidence that Cersei doesn't enjoy sex because she does not relate to it outside of a power dymamic. Jaime isn't the only man in the world who can get her off, it's that Jaime is the only man she doesn't have to "pretend" for (the power dymamic doesn't exist with him). When she begins to gain more power, she doesn't desire sex so much anymore and this is very significant. It's certainly ironic, as Cersei is always portrayed as this sex predator when she's really not.

How many times have we heard Cersei speak about how she and Jaime are so alike? That they came into the world together and they'll leave it together. Sex with Jaime is like having sex with herself and I think this is why she enjoys it so much. We know that Cersei is the one who feels the most disadvantaged by having been born a woman, and it's not a stretch to see that she's come to develop such an unhealthy relationship with sex. This is what she imagines that all the men wanted from her (and she may be right) and this is where she thinks her power lies. With Jaime, she is released from these burdens because he's so identical to her.

Perhaps this is why when he loses his hand Cersei is a bit repulsed; he no longer reflects her image back to her and she cannot achieve the kind of narcissitic, symbiotic pleasure that she was able to in the past. This, coupled with her growing independent power after Tywin's death and Tyrion's disappearance, makes her even less interested in sex with him.

"Sex with Jaime is like having sex with herself." Now why does this line sound so much like the much-mocked Asha/Qarl line, 'she was so at one with him that she didnt know who's genital was whos"? Oh I know why; because it is absurd. Acknowledging that they are alike --as siblings & twins-- is not the same as saying that it feels like masturbation when they fuck. She may be extra close psychologically to him, but the actual act of sex is different. Pretty poetic idea, but utterly stupid. Exactly how is Jaime reflecting her image back to her? Specifically?

As is the idea that she has developed an "unhealthy" attitude toward sex due solely to the fact that she is disgruntled that she is a victim of patriarchal sexism. Her power does lie partly in using sex because she lives in that culture, so it's not so much an unhealthy path she takes as a pragmatic one. For years and years Cersei can separate her 'real' sex life with Jaime from the way she uses sex --in defensive as well as offensive ways. People change, even in their sexual interest, even in Westros. Maybe Cersei does desire power more than sex. Maybe she's tired of sex and of Jaime. Maybe all 3 at once. Jaime's loss of hand means he's not as strong as he was, and that he cant protect her and her kids in the same way he used to. Im not calling it love she had for Jaime, but Im not calling it masturbation, either.

Edit: And I totally got Martin's point; Im saying it's inane & illogical, and an extension of how he screwed over her character in AFFC and made her into sexual trope of an evil queen using her evilness sexually and letting us take an inside peek of how a crazy evil bitch would surely act. Why crazy? Because it's laughable that anyone sane would act that way. How is chucking back the semen of the guy you cant fucking stand, whos raped you before even, a powerful act? It's ridiculous. Doubly so that she's enjoying her midnight snack after he's gone to drunken sleep. Had she wiped it off with a tissue and set it on fire to incantations and curses, THEN it might make more sense.

[brashcandy]

"Sex with Jaime is like having sex with herself." Now why does this line sound so much like the much-mocked Asha/Qarl line, 'she was so at one with him that she didnt know who's genital was whos"? Oh I know why; because it is absurd. Acknowledging that they are alike --as siblings & twins-- is not the same as saying that it feels like masturbation when they fuck. She may be extra close psychologically to him, but the actual act of sex is different. Pretty poetic idea, but utterly stupid. Exactly how is Jaime reflecting her image back to her? Specifically?

This is so far an Asha/Qarl situation it isn't funny. Do you ever wonder why Cersei can't enjoy sex with other men? It's because she's too busy trying to get something from them or use them in some way. And this is just the tip of the iceberg. She could not even relax and enjoy it with Taena. And the actual sex is a big part of the psychological connection between her and Jaime. Just because you cannot understand an idea doesn't mean that it's stupid.

As is the idea that she has developed an "unhealthy" attitude toward sex due solely to the fact that she is disgruntled that she is a victim of patriarchal sexism. Her power does lie partly in using sex because she lives in that culture, so it's not so much an unhealthy path she takes as a pragmatic one. For years and years Cersei can separate her 'real' sex life with Jaime from the way she uses sex --in defensive as well as offensive ways. People change, even in their sexual interest, even in Westros. Maybe Cersei does desire power more than sex. Maybe she's tired of sex and of Jaime. Maybe all 3 at once. Jaime's loss of hand means he's not as strong as he was, and that he cant protect her and her kids in the same way he used to. Im not calling it love she had for Jaime, but Im not calling it masturbation, either.

I don't think that Cersei has ever really desired Jaime to the extent that he has desired her. She achieves sexual satisfaction with him, but I truly wonder about how she views sex in general. I think the woman is suffering from a profound problem that started out from when she began using sex as strategy and now she cannot distinguish sex for pleasure from sex for power. It's not a simple matter of being disgruntled by "patriarchal sexism". You're missing the subtlety of what Martin is showing here. Because Jaime basically represents another side of Cersei, it is not threatening and therefore, sort of like having sex with one's self because no part of you is compromised.

Edit: And I totally got Martin's point; Im saying it's inane & illogical, and an extension of how he screwed over her character in AFFC and made her into sexual trope of an evil queen using her evilness sexually and letting us take an inside peek of how a crazy evil bitch would surely act. Why crazy? Because it's laughable that anyone sane would act that way. How is chucking back the semen of the guy you cant fucking stand, whos raped you before even, a powerful act? It's ridiculous. Doubly so that she's enjoying her midnight snack after he's gone to drunken sleep. Had she wiped it off with a tissue and set it on fire to incantations and curses, THEN it might make more sense.

Why is it laughable that someone would act this way? You have it stuck in your head that Martin was trying to portray Cersei as some evil, psycho bitch, and maybe he was. All I'm pointing out is that is just an interpretation, and offering another interpretation. I don't think it portrays Cersei negatively, and I think it was a symbolically loaded act to have her eat Robert's sperm. She is taking back some sense of agency and empowerment over Robert, this is the whole point. If she had simply wiped her hands clean it would have taken away the delicious perversity of her vengeance.

[Queen Cersei I]

LOL.

But wait... isn't Robert so drunk that he has no clue whatsoever of what he's doing with Cersei while in bed?

No. If you read the descriptions of Robert and Cersei's marital relations in both AGOT and AFFC, a clear picture forms. (The scenes in AFFC are actually incredibly graphic, and not in a good way.)

In AGOT, Cersei tells Ned that Robert mostly sleeps with whores, stumbling into her bedroom once in a while, but she "has other ways to pleasure him." This is unclear, but it appears Cersei is surely not giving Robert full access to her body. She also mentions that he's gotten her pregnant once before, so we must assume that somehow Robert's having full sex with Cersei every once in a while by some means or another.

And we also know that, in fact, Robert DOES remember these encounters, because earlier on in AGOT, he tells Ned, "Cersei is lovely to look upon, but cold. The way she guards her cunt, you'd think she had all of gold in casterly rock up there." (Yes, Robert actually says this. About his wife. To his friend. How is it that anyone likes this guy?)


Then, in AFFC, we get a more complete picture. Cersei reflects on “The way Robert would use her when the drink was in him…," calling these nights "assaults" during which Robert "forced her legs apart." She notes that they happened when Robert was really, really drunk and unsatisfied with being wanked or sucked off by her. It is noted that "during the first year he took her once a fortnight; bay the end it was not even once a year." And it is also clear that these "assaults" had an element of violence to them, rather than just Robert being horny. This is clear when Cersei describes, "lying helpless underneath him as he took his pleasure." And also when she notes that she was often physically in pain the next morning, sore and "her breasts painful from the mauling he would give them.”

So, for the record: Robert began “claiming his rights” like this with Cersei early on in the marriage, and at first did it once every few weeks. (Some might see this as a pretty good reason for even a decent woman to loathe Robert and refuse to bear his children, but let’s not get into that.) And Robert, as Cersei herself notes, blamed the wine, and claimed to have no memory whatsoever of these nights.

So, if we take Robert Baratheon at his word, (or that of Cersei when she’s posturing for Ned), then Robert was indeed “to drunk to remember anything he did in bed with his wife.” But this was almost surely not the case. First, we have Ned’s admission to Barristan that, no matter how drunk Robert would get, he’d always remember what he’d said and did the next morning. (And often attempt to follow through with the drunken boastings of the night before.) Furthermore, we have Robert clearly expressing to Ned that he, Robert, is aware of what is happening—that Cersei is not letting him go all the way. And then we have the following profession from Cersei (and I have no reason to believe that, in this one instance, at least, Cersei is lying or misperceiving the situation0: “he did remember what he did to her at night, she was convinced of that. He only pretended to forget; it was easier to do that than face his shame. Deep down, Robert Baratheon was a coward.”

So, overall I’d say that Robert knew perfectly well what had gone down in his marital bed. For numerous reasons, though, he chose to repress and deny this knowledge.

[Queen Cersei I]

I'm completely fine with no description of gay sex in the books.

You know, I’m not so much disturbed by this comment itself as by the fact that it got, like, 8 approval ratings. So I’ve got to wondering—are you guys against the idea of gay sex in the books, or simply fine with it’s absence? As I noted earlier, I don’t want a Renly/ Loras sex scene (because I’ve heard that Loras will get a POV next book, and it’s possible there might be a flashback/ memory scene), however, I don’t see anything against a gay sex scene in general.

I totally agree that there should not be a gratuitous guy on guy thrown in there for the sake of political correctness or sexiness. But if people feel that they'd "just rather not see that," then.... Well, so far we've gotten brother on sister in front of 7 year old boy; hideous dwarf on gorgeous 18 year old prostitute; grossly obese boy on lovely, nubile sexual abuse victim; male fantasy bombshell princess with huge, melon breasts on Kingsguard who gets no physical description; and more brother on sister, this time in front of their mutual son's tomb. I don't really see how a little guy on guy might be either gross or taking things too far.

Personally, yeah, given the situation at the wall, and a few other instance (sailors like Victarion on all (or nearly all) male crews, etc.), it’s unusual that we’ve gotten no guy on guy. (After all, its been shown in real life that when in such an environment, even totally heterosexual men may well engage in sex with other men. British boarding schools, anyone?)

Also, Cersei's encounter with Taena told me a LOT about Cersei's character, so I don't believe it was gratuitous. Even if it was though, why can heteros have gratuitous sex scenes without provoking comment, but lesbian scenes have to be especially significant?

I don't think it was the gratuitousness she was objecting to, per say. I think it was the rather conventional, cliched nature of the scenes themselves, especially that of Danerys. These two scenes-- and stunning, feminine, men loving but occasionally "bi curious" women like Elaria Sand-- seem to come straight out of heterosexual male fantasy.

[brashcandy]

Personally, yeah, given the situation at the wall, and a few other instance (sailors like Victarion on all (or nearly all) male crews, etc.), it’s unusual that we’ve gotten no guy on guy. (After all, its been shown in real life that when in such an environment, even totally heterosexual men may well engage in sex with other men. British boarding schools, anyone?)

I don't think it was the gratuitousness she was objecting to, per say. I think it was the rather conventional, cliched nature of the scenes themselves, especially that of Danerys. These two scenes-- and stunning, feminine, men loving but occasionally "bi curious" women like Elaria Sand-- seem to come straight out of heterosexual male fantasy.

Yup, the situation at the Wall is such a strange omission on Martin's part (or maybe not). This is why I didn't like Ygritte's character and Gilly's wasn't much better. It's like GRRM on the one hand completely ignores the homoerotic undertones of this exclusive men's organization, isolated and forbidden to sleep with women, and then he throws in a cardboard character like Ygritte who is so desperate for sex that she literally throws herself at the chaste Jon :) It's a bit absurd. It's fine that Martin wants Jon and Sam to be heterosexual (and needed Jon to lose his virginity especially quick to avoid any questioning of his sexuality!) but he could have avoided making Ygritte into a man shark and Gilly as a weeping widow.

Add Ellaria to Oberyn - the exotic man who LOVES going both ways!