Sandor Clegane 6- Read the Mod Warning before you post

[brashcandy]

Even though I think she would try to hang him at first sight, I like that prediction. It would tie so many loose ends together.

Yeah :) I think so too. I think she's done with Jaime and Brienne in terms of relying on them; don't know if she'll kill them or not. But Brienne needs to go somewhere and heal and recuperate, and it would be nice to see the sword change hands again..

[R & R]

Getting back to basics: Sandor's story is not done, not yet. GRRM didn't devote an entire Brienne chapter in AFfC which dealt with her meeting the Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle for no purpose whatsoever. Unless it was to complete Sandor's story such that he lived through his injuries and this is how the Hound's story ends, he's now a monk until he grows old and dies, which seems to me a lot of exposition devoted to simply wrapping up a secondary character's arc. Doesn't make sense. Why bring up the Gravedigger at all when it would have been expedient to simply allow Sandor to die and move on with the story on all other fronts?

So Sandor is the Gravedigger, and has some relevance upon upcoming events. Nothing else makes sense. Given the convenience of locales, Sandor's hooking up with Sansa -- thereby fulfilling, or at least exploring the potential of all of us San/San shippers is one logical possibility. There's at least a couple of other routes for Sandor to take that don't even necessarily involve Sansa. He can hook up with or oppose the BwB, and there is of course the unGregor factor. Hell, crackpotically (I just made up that adverb, best to simply run with it) Sandor could even find true love with Brienne, why the heck not? Imagine the genetically fearsome offspring of such a union, physically awesome yet psychologically flawed in every way imaginable.

Sigh. Best to simplify the tragedy. Let Sandor and Sansa hook up for the briefest of moments, thus giving us shippers our due, and then have one or the other die a tragic death before the plot becomes too complicated going forward.

[1234567]

Getting back to basics: Sandor's story is not done, not yet. GRRM didn't devote an entire Brienne chapter in AFfC which dealt with her meeting the Gravedigger on the Quiet Isle for no purpose whatsoever. Unless it was to complete Sandor's story such that he lived through his injuries and this is how the Hound's story ends, he's now a monk until he grows old and dies, which seems to me a lot of exposition devoted to simply wrapping up a secondary character's arc.

Sigh. Best to simplify the tragedy. Let Sandor and Sansa hook up for the briefest of moments, thus giving us shippers our due, and then have one or the other die a tragic death before the plot becomes too complicated going forward.

It is very possible that the Gravedigger scene was a nod and a wink to his fate. Also it is possible he meets Sansa again and as you said they have their brief moment before tragedy strikes. Again it is probably reading way to much into things but Sansa does have that dream about her children who look like Tullys, apart from a daughter who looks like Arya (who got taken as Clegane's son/daughter quite a lot). Also LF telling Sansa that her mother slept with him (the gift you can only give once) was no doubt intended to put the idea in to her head that it didn't matter if she was a maid just before a second wedding. Sansa even gets to thinking "so what" if her mother did. That combined with her new friends of Myranda and Mya, may mean that she doesn't have a problem with the idea of a brief affair with Sandor.

Also, and again this maybe a bit crackpot, but since reading ADWD, Sandor's fight with Lord Beric has taken on a bigger religious battle emphasis. To explain: As of ADWD we have the whole BR and the weirwood roots and the blood sacrifice emphasis becoming more apparent with the Old Gods. Mel sees BR and Bran in her flames and although she thinks the Old Gods are part of the Great Other, I wonder if they are opposed or on the same side (like Victarion now worships 2 Gods).

Now going back to the LB Sandor fight in the cave, I thought there were several interesting bits:

The first description of LB: "The voice came from the man seated amongst the weirwood roots halfway up the wall".

It also mentions the missing eye, both of which reminded me of BR. Then at the end of the fight: "Lord Beric's knees folded slowly, as if for prayer. When his mouth opened only blood came out. The Hound's sword was still in him as he toppled face forward. The dirt drank his blood." Given the weirwood roots and the whole blood drinking thing, this is quite interesting.

Then Thoros says that "a trial by battle is a holy thing. You heard me ask R'Hllor to take a hand, and you saw his fiery finger snap Lord Beric's sword, just as he was about to make an end of it. The Lord of Light is not done with Joffrey's Hound, it would seem". I wonder if Thoros has it wrong and BR affected the outcome of the fight.

I'm not sure if anyone has anymore insight into this, and it may just be ramblings, but I thought it was interesting.

[A Maidens Fantasy]

I guess I was specifically thinking of the tourney scene because Sandor was probably near by and could have seen LF flirting with her. Had Sandor left KL when LF asked Cersei permission for Sansa's hand?

Hmm, LF could have asked for Sansas hand before he went to the Tyrells, so it is possible he did it while Sandor was still in KL. Though it doesn't really seem like LF to play such a move before it was certain that the Tyrells would accept Joffrey and Margereys betrothal. In that case LFs offer to marry Sansa would have happened after Sandor left KL. I think the latter is more likely.

[Hound's She-wolf]

The first description of LB: "The voice came from the man seated amongst the weirwood roots halfway up the wall".

It also mentions the missing eye, both of which reminded me of BR. Then at the end of the fight: "Lord Beric's knees folded slowly, as if for prayer. When his mouth opened only blood came out. The Hound's sword was still in him as he toppled face forward. The dirt drank his blood." Given the weirwood roots and the whole blood drinking thing, this is quite interesting.

I had forgotten thast part, how interesting. Maybe that counts as Sandor making a blood sacrifice to the old gods.

Then Thoros says that "a trial by battle is a holy thing. You heard me ask R'Hllor to take a hand, and you saw his fiery finger snap Lord Beric's sword, just as he was about to make an end of it. The Lord of Light is not done with Joffrey's Hound, it would seem". I wonder if Thoros has it wrong and BR affected the outcome of the fight.

I'm not sure if anyone has anymore insight into this, and it may just be ramblings, but I thought it was interesting.

I've always thought that Sandor could be AAR, I can't come up with another character (that's alive and not a red priest) whose identity and entire life has been so affected by fire.

[Alexia]

Hmm, LF could have asked for Sansas hand before he went to the Tyrells, so it is possible he did it while Sandor was still in KL. Though it doesn't really seem like LF to play such a move before it was certain that the Tyrells would accept Joffrey and Margereys betrothal. In that case LFs offer to marry Sansa would have happened after Sandor left KL. I think the latter is more likely.

He did it in AGOT when Ned's fate was being decided, before the man lost his head and as part of the negotiations around neutralizing him. I rather think that Cersei's denial on the basis of his birth was part of what spurred him on to goad Joffrey into shortening Ned.

[voodooqueen126]

I have now finished Christine de Pizan’s The Book of the City of Ladies. Page 83 begins the section (quite short) that refutes the apparently widespread medieval notion that women enjoyed being raped.

From page 83 of Christine de Pizan’s City of Ladies:

I, Christine, then said, “My Lady, I fully believe what you say and I’m sure that there are many beautiful women who are upright, decent and fully able to protect themselves from the traps laid by seducers. It therefore angers and upsets me when men claim that women want to be raped and that, even though a woman may verbally rebuff a man, she won’t in fact mind it if he does force himself upon her. I can scarcely believe that it could give women any pleasure to be treated in such a vile way.”

Rectitude replied, “My dear friend, you can be sure that women who are chaste and lead a moral existence would find no pleasure in being raped. On the contrary, they think that it is the worst thing in that could possibly happen to them…”

She then goes on to tell the story of Tarquin and Lucretia

But the problem is book doesn’t tell which texts said these things (though I think the guilty text is Roman de La Rose), just that it was widely believed. If only Penguin had provided some damn footnotes.

On page 95 Christine mentions Roman de La Rose for I think the second time:

Rectitude replied, “My dear Christine, as for what they say about women being underhanded, I’m not sure what more I can tell you. You yourself have tackled this issue at length, when you refuted Ovid, along with all the others, in your Letter of the God of Love and the Letters on the Romance of the Rose..."

[A Maidens Fantasy]

He did it in AGOT when Ned's fate was being decided, before the man lost his head and as part of the negotiations around neutralizing him. I rather think that Cersei's denial on the basis of his birth was part of what spurred him on to goad Joffrey into shortening Ned.

Ah yes. After I wrote my post I also remembered it makes absolutely no sense to assume LF reacts rationally around Sansa, she makes him think with his little finger instead of his brain ;-)

[Starbird]

He did it in AGOT when Ned's fate was being decided, before the man lost his head and as part of the negotiations around neutralizing him. I rather think that Cersei's denial on the basis of his birth was part of what spurred him on to goad Joffrey into shortening Ned.

I thought that happened later, after he became Lord of Harrenhal. I can't find it in GOT, anyway.

I did come across this little tidbit, though:

[sansa's locked in her room] The only time the door opened was late that night, when they thrust Jeyne Poole inside, bruised and shaking. "They're killing everyone," the steward's daughter had shrieked at her. She went on and on. The Hound had broken down her door with a warhammer, she said. . . . . .

[sansa tells Cersei no one will tell them anything and asks after Jeyne's father] "Us?" Cersei seemed puzzled.

"We put the steward's girl in with her," Ser Boros said. "We did not know what else to do with her." . . . . .

Queen Cersei looked at each of the councillors in turn. "I won't have Sansa fretting needlessly. What shall we do with this little friend of hers, my lords?"

Lord Petyr leaned forward. "I'll find a place for her."

"Not in the city," said the queen.

"Do you take me for a fool?"

This is a total reach but I don't think it was Boros's idea to throw Jeyne in with Sansa.

[Ednawolf]

Sigh. Best to simplify the tragedy. Let Sandor and Sansa hook up for the briefest of moments, thus giving us shippers our due, and then have one or the other die a tragic death before the plot becomes too complicated going forward.

Personally, I don't think that their story has to be a tragedy. (Especially for him... he's already endured so much and lost his innocence... give him a happy ending!)

[Ednawolf]

I thought that happened later, after he became Lord of Harrenhal. I can't find it in GOT, anyway.

I did come across this little tidbit, though:

This is a total reach but I don't think it was Boros's idea to throw Jeyne in with Sansa.

Interesting. Do you think it was The Hound's idea to throw Jeyne in w/ Sansa?

[Starbird]

Interesting. Do you think it was The Hound's idea to throw Jeyne in w/ Sansa?

Yup. :-)

[1234567]

I did come across this little tidbit, though:

This is a total reach but I don't think it was Boros's idea to throw Jeyne in with Sansa.

Nice find Starbird. I think Boros would have killed her. He very much follows orders and we know he has no problem hitting Sansa.

[headtrip_honey]

Yup. :-)

I like. I like a lot.

(BTW, guys, I'm back! ugh, so much travel.)

[Starbird]

Welcome back, HH!

To Rapsie's point, I don't think Boros is much of a thinker. I'd bet the Hound knew they were friendly and figured he'd A) spare Jeyne whatever horror might have befallen her (if only he know it would get so much worse for the poor girl) and B ) having a friend with her would give Sansa some relief. So my money's on the Hound telling Boros where to take Jeyne. (Who shows up bruised . . .)

[Lemon Cake]

I like your theory, Starbird! My money's much more on option B than A, though. I might have felt differently if it had happened later in the series, but at that point in the story, the Hound still didn't seem to have much interest in helping or protecting anyone but Sansa -- and even then, not so much.

[headtrip_honey]

It even may have gone something like, they break down Jeyne's door, Boros has no clue what to do with her, the Hound remembers she was friends with Sansa, and tells him to take Jeyne there.

So it may not have even been to give Sansa relief, just that he remembered who she was friends with. Which is still cool in my book. :)

[Bugger that]

I thought that happened later, after he became Lord of Harrenhal. I can't find it in GOT, anyway.

I did come across this little tidbit, though:

This is a total reach but I don't think it was Boros's idea to throw Jeyne in with Sansa.

Oh I agree that Jeyne being spared was definitely the Hound's doing...

[Ednawolf]

Oh I agree that Jeyne being spared was definitely the Hound's doing...

I like the implication that (A) he spared Jeyne and sent her to Sansa because it would be a comfort for Sansa to have her friend, and (B) he was obviously observing and making note of Sansa and who Sansa hung around with.

[1234567]

I like the idea that he did it because although they were slaughtering all Stark retainers, he didn't want to hurt a child unless he had too. He always seems quite nice to Tommen and Myrcella.