Sandor Clegane 6- Read the Mod Warning before you post

[Été]

Actually, I don't think LF knew.

Varys has his "little birds" everywhere, but LF seems to operate through catspaws and people who are well-placed to sell him information in return for promotion or favours. I imagine LF wasted no time in buying Dontos' service, giving him a window on goings-on in the royal household. Moon Boy already works for Varys. Read the chapter in which Catelyn comes to see Ned in KL. LF is far from omniscient, but when he does have information, he uses it wisely.

The encounters around the castle happened at night, in isolated places like the tops of towers; LF had no reason to have Sansa followed, so if there were spies around, they were incidental. He keeps tabs on the gamechangers, but Sansa is very much a pawn, kept safely under lock and key at the Red Keep.

At best, he might have noticed Sansa turning heads and reflected that even the Hound didn't seem to be immune from her charms, but I doubt he gave it a second thought. The Hound isn't a sentimental guy - no one would have expected him to be mooning over any girl, any more than one could predict that Sansa might actually be receptive.

[Damar]

In fact, in some ways, he's as capable of deluding himself about certain things as Sansa is (i.e., convincing himself that she gave him the song).

Actually, he does admit to Arya in their last moment he had been lying about that, whilst breaking down in tears.

[Lemon Cake]

Actually, he does admit to Arya in their last moment he had been lying about that, whilst breaking down in tears.

You're right. I just meant that he apparently managed to fool himself about the issue for some time before he broke down and admitted the truth -- to both Arya and to himself.

[Lemon Cake]

Varys has his "little birds" everywhere,

Which makes me wonder, did Varys know?

As to the rest of your post, I can only say: Fair point. I guess a part of me just wants someone to have known, simply because I think it would be interesting to see their reaction and what (if anything) they might do with the information in future.

[Tini]

You're right. I just meant that he apparently managed to fool himself about the issue for some time before he broke down and admitted the truth -- to both Arya and to himself.

I don't think he ever fooled himself about the issue. He knew he had taken the song. He just didn't tell Arya at first.

Which makes me wonder, did Varys know?

As to the rest of your post, I can only say: Fair point. I guess a part of me just wants someone to have known, simply because I think it would be interesting to see their reaction and what (if anything) they might do with the information in future.

Know what? That the Hound occasionally came across Sansa in the Red Keep, and scared her nearly shitless? That was to be expected. He was working for Joffrey, and known to be a brutal and harsh man.

To see anything unusual going on, they would have had to compare his behavior towards Sansa with his behavior towards other ladies at court. There weren't any, not while he was working for Joffrey.

[1234567]

Which makes me wonder, did Varys know?

As to the rest of your post, I can only say: Fair point. I guess a part of me just wants someone to have known, simply because I think it would be interesting to see their reaction and what (if anything) they might do with the information in future.

Okay I don't have the books to hand, but I'm sure there is something about Maegor's Holdfast not having the tunnels and Maegor wanted somewhere that he couldn't be spied on himself. I could be very wrong about this.

It would be interesting if someone else knew, but it maybe plot important that no one does.

[Lemon Cake]

Okay I don't have the books to hand, but I'm sure there is something about Maegor's Holdfast not having the tunnels and Maegor wanted somewhere that he couldn't be spied on himself. I could be very wrong about this.

You're probably right.

And I think that's my "But surely someone must have been suspicious!" theory all blown to bits. :lol:

[Ednawolf]

At best, he might have noticed Sansa turning heads and reflected that even the Hound didn't seem to be immune from her charms, but I doubt he gave it a second thought. The Hound isn't a sentimental guy - no one would have expected him to be mooning over any girl, any more than one could predict that Sansa might actually be receptive.

What makes us think that Sansa might actually be receptive? I'm worried that because I'm receptive to the idea of Sandor :) , that I'm seeing evidence of Sansa being receptive that isn't really there. It seems like she still has a long way to go in moving past his hideousness on the exterior and his rage... and seeing him for who he really is (or, rather, for who he could be). Is it the wedding bed dream and remembering a kiss that makes us think she's warmed to him?

[brashcandy]

You're probably right.

And I think that's my "But surely someone must have been suspicious!" theory all blown to bits. :lol:

:) the only person perceptive enough would have been Tyrion - but the moments when he was around nothing too crazy happened - the Hound's saving her from the KL riot would have looked like he was just doing his job, especially since he tried to save someone else too, plus when she was being stripped the Hound didn't speak up clearly, and it was Tyrion who saved her then.

What makes us think that Sansa might actually be receptive? I'm worried that because I'm receptive to the idea of Sandor :) , that I'm seeing evidence of Sansa being receptive that isn't really there. It seems like she still has a long way to go in moving past his hideousness on the exterior and his rage... and seeing him for who he really is (or, rather, for who he could be). Is it the wedding bed dream and remembering a kiss that makes us think she's warmed to him?

Yeah those things for sure, also when she touches his face, wraps herself in his cloak and then hides it under her summer silks for safe keeping. Plus she keeps thinking of him in the Vale. If GRRM isn't planning on taking this relationship along the romance route then... :tantrum:

It just wouldn't make sense... too many clues..

[Ednawolf]

O

Yeah those things for sure, also when she touches his face, wraps herself in his cloak and then hides it under her summer silks for safe keeping. Plus she keeps thinking of him in the Vale. If GRRM isn't planning on taking this relationship along the romance route then... :tantrum:

It just wouldn't make sense... too many clues..

I wonder if she still has his cloak? It seems like she left KL with minimal possessions, being on the run and all. She did reference the cloak again in AFFC when Sweetrobin tried to give her a kiss.

[1234567]

Is it the wedding bed dream and remembering a kiss that makes us think she's warmed to him?

Those. Also she thinks of him in every (or almost every ) chapter in AFFC. He is also the only person in KL she seems able to really talk to.

Also (and this is wild theorising and possibly just a conincidence) when she chooses a dress to wear in the Vale, her first choice is one which has Tully colours and LF tells her to change. The dress she chooses is "dark brown and simply cut, with leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread" and for jewelry "a simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold" which just really reminded me of House Clegane colours....especially the Autumn bit.

[Ednawolf]

Also (and this is wild theorising and possibly just a conincidence) when she chooses a dress to wear in the Vale, her first choice is one which has Tully colours and LF tells her to change. The dress she chooses is "dark brown and simply cut, with leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread" and for jewelry "a simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold" which just really reminded me of House Clegane colours....especially the Autumn bit.

I noticed that too w/ the harvest yellow ribbon. And the Hound was often described by Sansa as wearing "simple brown roughspun." Sometimes I worry that I'm over-analyzing though... but if other people catch these clues too!

[Lemon Cake]

In addition to the things brashcandy mentioned, GRRM's own comments about Sansa's misremembering of the kiss is what really clinches it for me. Especially this quote:

"The Lion's Paw / Lion's Tooth business, on the other hand, is intentional. A small touch of the unreliable narrator. I was trying to establish that the memories of my viewpoint characters are not infallible. Sansa is simply remembering it wrong. A very minor thing (you are the only one to catch it to date), but it was meant to set the stage for a much more important lapse in memory. You will see, in A STORM OF SWORDS and later volumes, that Sansa remembers the Hound kissing her the night he came to her bedroom... but if you look at the scene, he never does. That will eventually mean something, but just now it's a subtle touch, something most of the readers may not even pick up on."

Possibly I'm just looking at this through my shipping goggles, but that quote just reads to me like, "I'm not going to come right out and tell you if Sansa will ever reciprocate the Hound's attraction, but I WILL be all coy and leading about it in a way that practically screams 'YES, YES SHE WILL.'"

I don't think it's going to be Twu Wuv 4evr and a happy ending for them, but I'll honestly be shocked if something romantic(ish) doesn't occur between them.

[Été]

What makes us think that Sansa might actually be receptive? I'm worried that because I'm receptive to the idea of Sandor :) , that I'm seeing evidence of Sansa being receptive that isn't really there. It seems like she still has a long way to go in moving past his hideousness on the exterior and his rage... and seeing him for who he really is (or, rather, for who he could be). Is it the wedding bed dream and remembering a kiss that makes us think she's warmed to him?

The fact that she's imagined the kiss in the first place - to the point of believing it actually happened, no less - seems pretty suggestive to me. There's also the dream about him getting into bed with her and the way he appears in her thoughts throughout ASoS and AFfC. I don't think a single chapter goes by without her thinking about the Hound. She associates him with protection, which isn't necessarily a romantic thing but seems significant when we're dealing with damsel-in-distress Sansa. I think it's the scene on the rooftop when she decides his angry eyes are worse than his scars; while she's marrying Tyrion, she reflects that he's uglier than the Hound. It would be a big stretch to suggest she thinks he's pretty, but I don't think the way he looks is insurmountable. The way he acts, on the other hand, should be - unless the Quiet Isle chills him the hell out, which most of us expect it will.

But more than anything, this seems like a natural extension of her arc. Sansa's time at King's Landing taught her that 'good' is not the same as 'beautiful'. It's the pretty ones who've hurt and lied her. Contrast that with the horribly disfigured Hound, who's protected her and always been unpleasantly honest. There's all the symbolism of cloaks and hope chests, dogs and wolves, marriage and puppies.

Sansa has no lust for power, no political ambitions: she just wants to be safe and loved, not married for her claim. It doesn't feel like an accident that Sandor's attentions come at a time when Sansa is utterly powerless i.e. before she becomes the ostensible heir to Winterfell. Sansa's ideal outcome would be to live out her days in comfortable near-obscurity; if she's got the beginnings of a crush on the Hound, then winding up Lady Clegane would suit her down to the ground. Of course, there are plenty of other - less dysfunctional - candidates up and down the social scale, like Ned Dayne for instance. But instead, GRRM's written this odd relationship between Sansa and the Hound, and it'll be really interesting to see how that plays out.

EDIT: WOW, long post

[Ednawolf]

Sansa has no lust for power, no political ambitions: she just wants to be safe and loved, not married for her claim. It doesn't feel like an accident that Sandor's attentions come at a time when Sansa is utterly powerless i.e. before she becomes the ostensible heir to Winterfell. Sansa's ideal outcome would be to live out her days in comfortable near-obscurity; if she's got the beginnings of a crush on the Hound, then winding up Lady Clegane would suit her down to the ground. Of course, there are plenty of other - less dysfunctional - candidates up and down the social scale, like Ned Dayne for instance. But instead, GRRM's written this odd relationship between Sansa and the Hound, and it'll be really interesting to see how that plays out.

I agree with everything you said, and you articulated it very well. There's still something nagging at me though... I'm wondering if Sansa at some point will become Queen thanks to the manipulations of LF? Early on in GoT, Cat mentions to Sansa that she'll be Queen one day (of course, that was a logical statement at the time since she had just been betrothed to Joffrey). But then Tyrion also makes note of how Sansa's courteousness would have made a good Queen and that it's too bad Joffrey didn't realize that. And then Sansa herself thinks that if she were Queen, she'd make everyone love her (ostensibly by being sweet and gracious). I'm hoping that she does not go down the Cersei / Dany road and chooses instead to live a comfortable life w/ someone who loves her for her.... someone, like, say... Sandor Clegane. :)

[Starbird]

Yeah, but LF had spies everywhere. And spies work at all hours, in all places, not just at public events. I guess I just find it hard to believe that not one of them ever saw anything -- especially since they were probably told to pay special attention to Sansa, since LF had Big Plans for her.

I just mean that I think LF was aware of it, and even though he didn't think the information was worth much at the time, it might be useful to him at a later point -- say, if the Hound ever shows up in the Vale. It could be something he could use, in line with his philosophy that you can control a man if only you know what it is that he wants.

LF wouldn't need an extensive spy network if the Hound frequents his brothels. I bet those girls are paid extra (by LF) for juicy tidbits of information. (Not that I think Sandor's spilling his guts to random whores, but it's surely a convenient way to get information on various people.) I don't remember - does LF have a monopoly on the brothels in KL?

I don't think LF knows about Sandor's crush. Waaaaay back in GOT he says something to Ned about Gregor being Sandor's to hate/kill. I'm of the belief that Sandor does not have a burning desire to kill Gregor. So, I think LF has got it wrong. If Sansa ever mentions the Hound in LF's hearing, that might cause him to put 2+2 together but, for now, I think he's in the dark.

plus when she was being stripped the Hound didn't speak up clearly, and it was Tyrion who saved her then.

The Hound was too busy thinking it was the best idea Joffrey ever had. Kidding, kidding . . . :)

There's still something nagging at me though... I'm wondering if Sansa at some point will become Queen thanks to the manipulations of LF?

I could only see it happening as a horrible ironic twist. I just don't think Sansa has the stomach for it. We'll see, after her time at the Baelish School of Political Manipulation, but she just doesn't strike me as a leader on such a big scale. I think being the Lady of WF would be enough for her, and about the level of what she could handle, what with the pre-existing loyalty of the 'subjects' and all. I don't think she could, say, behead a NW deserter, for example, or even order someone else to do so. Also, we know Sandor has no such aspirations so, if she chooses to tie her future to his, this would be an issue. Further, every single time she's in a position to make a jump up the political ladder (Joffrey, Tyrion, the Tyrell kid, Harry the Heir), it all goes horribly wrong. I think she's coming to the same conclusion. She doesn't want to be loved for her claim, which makes me think she'd be willing to give it up.

[Été]

LF wouldn't need an extensive spy network if the Hound frequents his brothels. I bet those girls are paid extra (by LF) for juicy tidbits of information. (Not that I think Sandor's spilling his guts to random whores, but it's surely a convenient way to get information on various people.) I don't remember - does LF have a monopoly on the brothels in KL?

No, he just owns a lot of them. I doubt Alayaya is a franchise-holder.

I could only see it happening as a horrible ironic twist. I just don't think Sansa has the stomach for it. We'll see, after her time at the Baelish School of Political Manipulation, but she just doesn't strike me as a leader on such a big scale. I think being the Lady of WF would be enough for her, and about the level of what she could handle, what with the pre-existing loyalty of the 'subjects' and all. I don't think she could, say, behead a NW deserter, for example, or even order someone else to do so. Also, we know Sandor has no such aspirations so, if she chooses to tie her future to his, this would be an issue.

Would it though? We can surmise from Jon's first ADWD chapter that Rickon is indeed safe on Skagos, ready for our favourite onion knight to bring him back on the scene. Sansa won't be needed at Winterfell; once Rickon's under Stannis' control, her political utility is as marriage fodder by anyone seeking an alliance with the north - but I don't see LF backing Stannis any time soon. Sansa is staying under wraps.

[Starbird]

Would it though? We can surmise from Jon's first ADWD chapter that Rickon is indeed safe on Skagos, ready for our favourite onion knight to bring him back on the scene. Sansa won't be needed at Winterfell; once Rickon's under Stannis' control, her political utility is as marriage fodder by anyone seeking an alliance with the north - but I don't see LF backing Stannis any time soon. Sansa is staying under wraps.

Would what? Would Sansa's political worth be an issue for Sandor in a "she can't overcome who she is" kind of thing?

I'm curious - what do you see LF doing? Sticking with the Tyrells while working to rid KL of the last of the Lannister influence? I don't see that marriage to Harry going through. Do you think LF will try to marry Sansa himself? The problem with all this is: no Sandor. :thumbsdown:

[1234567]

Would what? Would Sansa's political worth be an issue for Sandor in a "she can't overcome who she is" kind of thing?

I'm curious - what do you see LF doing? Sticking with the Tyrells while working to rid KL of the last of the Lannister influence? I don't see that marriage to Harry going through. Do you think LF will try to marry Sansa himself? The problem with all this is: no Sandor. :thumbsdown:

I think LF is certainly planning to seduce her at somepoint, but she needs to be married (to someone other than Tyrion first). My bets are on

Aegon. He will get the Tyrells to bend knee by hinting Margery could marry Ageon and then once they have bent knee, bring in Sansa as a marriage option instead.

. But look at Sansa's experiences of KL: the beatings, the riot, No Traitor Queen. She even sees the mob adoring Margery and reflects that they tried to kill her. She is seen as a traitor's daughter and a regicide. At the moment her public image is akin to Lucrecita Borgias'.

GRRM seems to have built up an unresolved plot surrounding Sansa and Sandor, even more so than him and his brother. EB's comments suggest that his brother's death may have been the major cataylst for change in him. Killing his brother was all he lived for and now that is gone he has to re-evaluate his life and who he is on his own terms.

[Starbird]

I think LF is certainly planning to seduce her at somepoint, but she needs to be married (to someone other than Tyrion first). My bets are on

Aegon. He will get the Tyrells to bend knee by hinting Margery could marry Ageon and then once they have bent knee, bring in Sansa as a marriage option instead.

. But look at Sansa's experiences of KL: the beatings, the riot, No Traitor Queen. She even sees the mob adoring Margery and reflects that they tried to kill her. She is seen as a traitor's daughter and a regicide. At the moment her public image is akin to Lucrecita Borgias'.

True but a good PR campaign could change all that. Or, the truth. She's done in KL either way, I think. Her future's in the north.

GRRM seems to have built up an unresolved plot surrounding Sansa and Sandor, even more so than him and his brother. EB's comments suggest that his brother's death may have been the major cataylst for change in him. Killing his brother was all he lived for and now that is gone he has to re-evaluate his life and who he is on his own terms.

I don't remember what EB said and I don't have my books handy but I think that's a cover. It's what he would've been saying to Brienne, yes? I don't believe that Sandor wanted to kill his brother. He could've if he'd wanted to at the Hand's Tourney and at other times if he'd really sought the opportunity. Instead, he laughs at him and enjoys his brother's "humiliation." If anything, he wanted/s Gregor to suffer and feel pain and shame like he's had to because of his scars. Death would be getting off easy in comparison to the suffering Sandor's had to endure. So, I don't think Gregor's alleged death had the same impact as, say, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion, for example, when the Hound pretty much fell into a chair after getting the news. Even if he DOES still want to kill Gregor, I think he wants Sansa even more, and her influence on him is what causes any reevaluation he's doing. I remain suspicious of the EB.