Arya & Jon

[Bugger that]

Yeah.... no I don't get that feeling. I don't see anything abnormally intimate about their relationship.

[StarkWolf]

I think there is quite a bit of foreshadowing of Gendry and Arya getting together. I won't list the examples of their bonding, but someone, I think it's Jaime, mentions: "if she's lucky she'll forget about her family and marry a blacksmith and have a bunch of children".

Gendry and Arya are another possibility. But I don't think they will as Arya just walks all over him. He needs to come out of his shell a bit more. He seemed to be more in awe of her than anything else.

And if we're talking about foreshadowing what about when Ned said to Arya in GoT:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a high septon."

I think Jon is going to be the eventual king. Not Daenerys, Aegon, Stannis or Tommen. Someone else said that their relationship doesn't follow the normal brother/sister stereotype. And it doesn't. So I don't think it a great leap that it could progress to something else down the road.

The Westermarck Effect - thanks for the link, interesting reading. Someone maybe should've shown it to GRRM before he made Cersei and Jaime lovers. (Now that is some fucked up incest.)

I second that! Completely baseless and utterly ridiculous theory. Any NORMAL brother not concerned for the welfare of his sister being forced to marry and be bedded (raped) at 10 or 11 years, and to Ramsay Bolton no less, would be a cold hearted bastard not to be upset by it.

Point being they don't have a 'normal' relationship to begin with.

[StarkWolf]

And by the by, this is conditional on Jon turning out not to being Eddard's son.

Would I want them to have an intimate biologically related brother/sister anything? -- hell no.

[Fournaridis]

Everyone who's dead, is alive or warged into someone else.

Everyone is a Targaryen bastard.

Everyone is involved in an incestuous relationship.

[ZacharyB]

Gendry and Arya are another possibility. But I don't think they will as Arya just walks all over him. He needs to come out of his shell a bit more. He seemed to be more in awe of her than anything else.

And if we're talking about foreshadowing what about when Ned said to Arya in GoT:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a high septon."

I think Jon is going to be the eventual king. Not Daenerys, Aegon, Stannis or Tommen. Someone else said that their relationship doesn't follow the normal brother/sister stereotype. And it doesn't. So I don't think it a great leap that it could progress to something else down the road.

The Westermarck Effect - thanks for the link, interesting reading. Someone maybe should've shown it to GRRM before he made Cersei and Jaime lovers. (Now that is some fucked up incest.)

Point being they don't have a 'normal' relationship to begin with.

What's so abnormal about their relationship? From the brief scenes in the beginning of AGoT with them together, there isn't anything abnormal about it. Neither of them have ever lusted for each other. To be honest, I can't see Arya lusting for anyone except for her sword, and I especially can't see her ever seeing anything in her brother who give it to her.

[David Selig]

Arya was eight the last time Jon saw her. It would be beyond creepy if he had any kind of "romantic" feelings for her.

[dobegrrrl]

Gendry and Arya are another possibility. But I don't think they will as Arya just walks all over him. He needs to come out of his shell a bit more. He seemed to be more in awe of her than anything else.

Exactly. He was able to give her a ration of shite when it was needed though.

[Bugger that]

Wow, if Jon's and Arya's relationship is not normal then I clearly need to take a good look at my own little sister/big brothers relationships! One of my brothers used to hold me down and tickle me, what do you make of that???

[Cersei's Evil Plan]

I watched HBOs Game of Thrones before I even read the books and the feeling I got there was that somehow Jon and Arya were a future love interest. That is after I figured out he wasn't Neds biological son.

Since reading the books, this feeling has strengthened. They are very close, in a most unbrother/sister like way. They are on the same wavelength, finishing each others sentences etc. Arya has said that the only other person, apart from her father, who called her pretty was Jon. He compared Ygritte to her and I don't buy into the Freudian Oedipal theory to explain it away either.

Does anyone else think this pairing is a distinct possibility or would like to see it happen?

I've got that feeling too. Really happy that I'm not alone in my expectations.

[Damar]

It's disturbing how anyone even got the idea for such an relationship which is simply Big Brother&Little Sister. Why can't siblings have feelings for each other without some weirdo seeing it as romantic?

[Erinne]

Everyone who's dead, is alive or warged into someone else.

Everyone is a Targaryen bastard.

Everyone is involved in an incestuous relationship.

It is known.

[StarkWolf]

Arya was eight the last time Jon saw her. It would be beyond creepy if he had any kind of "romantic" feelings for her.

I'm not saying he had sexual feelings for her at that time.

Wow, if Jon's and Arya's relationship is not normal then I clearly need to take a good look at my own little sister/big brothers relationships!

Their relationship is not normal in the sense that they have a very strong connection which seems to go beyond your average sibling kinship.

Exactly. He was able to give her a ration of shite when it was needed though.

He did? I don't recall it. Must re-read that again.

I've got that feeling too. Really happy that I'm not alone in my expectations.

Glad to hear it! :thumbsup:

It's disturbing how anyone even got the idea for such an relationship which is simply Big Brother&Little Sister. Why can't siblings have feelings for each other without some weirdo seeing it as romantic?

Weirdo? Seriously??

[ZacharyB]

I didn't find their relationship beyond typical brother/sister kinship at all. Sure if you compare it to other families in Westeros (Theon/Asha) or even Jon's relationships with his other Stark kin (Jon/Sansa, for example), then I suppose it is stronger. But considering that they're both outsiders in their family, it's pretty likely that they'll look to each other for support. I'm not sure how that'll evolve into romantic feelings even if R + L = J. They've lived out their lives as brother/sister, and the revelation of "Hey, we're actually cousins!" would not change that brother/sister bond.

[Bugger that]

Their relationship is not normal in the sense that they have a very strong connection which seems to go beyond your average sibling kinship.

I don't see it... They were/are very close and miss each other, which isn't strange at all, especially considering that as far as they know, every other family member is dead or lost to them.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Personally, I don't subscribe to this theory but I can see the reasoning behind it. After all, we are reading a series of books filled with incest, so in these books this is a possible theory and is not outside the realm of reality.

What the OP has put forward is strictly speaking not incest since she has used the premise R+L=J for for her argument. Therefore, Jon is a Targaryen and incest is not uncommon amongst the Targaryens. She has put forward a well laid argument and has cited stuff from the books to back up her argument. I think if anyone wants to disagree with her then they need to put forward their own arguments to refute hers without name calling or mocking the entire theory.

What really bothers me about these boards is how some theories are "objective" while others are disgusting and "weird". There is a crazy theory about Jaime and Cersei practicing incest because they are actually secret Targaryens and they can't help it because it is genetic!

However, Jon whom many people believe is a real Targ, can't have any incestuous feelings towards his cousin. I can't help but laugh when I read all this stuff.

[StarkWolf]

Personally, I don't subscribe to this theory but I can see the reasoning behind it. After all, we are reading a series of books filled with incest, so in these books this is a possible theory and is not outside the realm of reality.

What the OP has put forward is strictly speaking not incest since she has used the premise R+L=J for for her argument. Therefore, Jon is a Targaryen and incest is not uncommon amongst the Targaryens. She has put forward a well laid argument and has cited stuff from the books to back up her argument. I think if anyone wants to disagree with her then they need to put forward their own arguments to refute hers without name calling or mocking the entire theory.

What really bothers me about these boards is how some theories are "objective" while others are disgusting and "weird". There is a crazy theory about Jaime and Cersei practicing incest because they are actually secret Targaryens and they can't help it because it is genetic!

However, Jon whom many people believe is a real Targ, can't have any incestuous feelings towards his cousin. I can't help but laugh when I read all this stuff.

Thank you.

I'm not looking for everyone to agree with me. I'm just putting forward my theory and wondering if possibly anyone else reads it this way too. If you don't agree, then you don't agree. That's fine. But leave off on the name calling.

[Dragonfish]

What the OP has put forward is strictly speaking not incest since she has used the premise R+L=J for for her argument. Therefore, Jon is a Targaryen and incest is not uncommon amongst the Targaryens.

Is it incest or not? There's no point in arguing that Jon's Targ heritage would make incest ok if you don't think it's even incest.

However, Jon whom many people believe is a real Targ, can't have any incestuous feelings towards his cousin. I can't help but laugh when I read all this stuff.

As has already been pointed out numerous times, Jon and Arya are emotionally brother and sister. That's what grosses people out. If you grew up with someone who you thought was your sister, then found out later she wasn't, you don't think it would be weird if you started having sexual feelings for her?

[Stranger's_brother]

He did? I don't recall it. Must re-read that again.

He usually doesn't do things she wants if he thinks they are pointless or dangerous - for instance he refuses to break down the prison doors in Harrenhal when she wants to release the Northern prisoners, because it would be impossible without alerting the guards. He also calls her out on getting a lot of people killed due to her weasel soup attack, which is something she obviously hasn't really thought about. I don't know if I would call that "giving her shite" as such, but he's far from letting her walk all over him. I mean, he leaves her for the Brotherhood, even after it's pretty clear she's pissed off about that.

As for Jon and Arya, I don't really see that supported by the text - and I don't think that would change if they were cousins, since they grew up as siblings and relate to each other as brother and sister - but I always thought she likes Gendry so much because he reminds her of Jon (she even compares them to a degree). So, if these two were to end up together, it would be kind of like she hooked up with an "appropriate" (i.e. non-incestual) version of Jon.

[StarkWolf]

As has already been pointed out numerous times, Jon and Arya are emotionally brother and sister. That's what grosses people out. If you grew up with someone who you thought was your sister, then found out later she wasn't, you don't think it would be weird if you started having sexual feelings for her?

You state that Jon and Arya are emotionally brother and sister. I disagree. I see a stronger connection than that. That is what I'm basing my theory on.

Yes I would find it weird, extremely freaking weird, if I started having sexual feelings for a sibling after growing up together.

However, and I'm repeating myself here, the way I read it, their relationship differs from normal siblings. And it's not like they're growing up together. What age was Arya when she left Winterfell? It seems she's doing all her growing up now. Because of the circumstances she has been forced to mature quickly, so has Jon. They're likely going to be very different people from what they were before, even from what they would have been if they still had had a normal childhood. The only thing that will be the same is their connection. And I see the possibility for something more.

[Shaggydog Stark]

Thank you.

I'm not looking for everyone to agree with me. I'm just putting forward my theory and wondering if possibly anyone else reads it this way too. If you don't agree, then you don't agree. That's fine. But leave off on the name calling.

Your welcome. The way I see it, is everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Even if others do not agree does not mean they are necessarily right. Myself I don't subscribe to this theory, however, I can't refute it using the books ;), so I usually don't get involved in theories I disagree with but can't refute.

Is it incest or not? There's no point in arguing that Jon's Targ heritage would make incest ok if you don't think it's even incest.

As has already been pointed out numerous times, Jon and Arya are emotionally brother and sister. That's what grosses people out. If you grew up with someone who you thought was your sister, then found out later she wasn't, you don't think it would be weird if you started having sexual feelings for her?

I already said I don't subscribe to this theory, what bothers me is the attitude of some of the posters whenever someone new posts a theory that is not the "in theory" on the boards. I don't know why people get grossed out by Arya and Jon and don't get grossed out by all the other stuff in the books.