Arya & Jon

[Damar]

Weirdo? Seriously??

I thought was I was being polite with that name. But apologies for it offending you.

But apart from it being obvious that Arya and Jon being connected due to being outsiders for being a bastard and a tomboy and lacking the Tully features of their other siblings, there is nothing romantic about incest, especially in not in this settting where every implication or straight example is depicted as being wrong and sick.

[Dragonfish]

You state that Jon and Arya are emotionally brother and sister. I disagree. I see a stronger connection than that. That is what I'm basing my theory on.

Why must a romantic relationship be "stronger" than a brother/sister relationship?

Jon and Arya are close, there's no doubt about that, but I see no reason to believe that this closeness goes anywhere beyond sibling love.

[StarkWolf]

He usually doesn't do things she wants if he thinks they are pointless or dangerous - for instance he refuses to break down the prison doors in Harrenhal when she wants to release the Northern prisoners, because it would be impossible without alerting the guards. He also calls her out on getting a lot of people killed due to her weasel soup attack, which is something she obviously hasn't really thought about. I don't know if I would call that "giving her shite" as such, but he's far from letting her walk all over him. I mean, he leaves her for the Brotherhood, even after it's pretty clear she's pissed off about that.

She's pissed off because she knows her journey doesn't end with them and she has to leave her friends behind. But I am going to re-read that section in case I missed something.

As for Jon and Arya, I don't really see that supported by the text - and I don't think that would change if they were cousins, since they grew up as siblings and relate to each other as brother and sister - but I always thought she likes Gendry so much because he reminds her of Jon (she even compares them to a degree). So, if these two were to end up together, it would be kind of like she hooked up with an "appropriate" (i.e. non-incestual) version of Jon.

So you don't see that, yet your reasoning for her and Gendry hooking up is because he reminds her of Jon?

And if it turned out that Jon was her cousin, you would consider it incest and inappropriate? Bearing in mind this happens all within the confines of GRRMs medieval like world?

[Timur Khal]

And by the by, this is conditional on Jon turning out not to being Eddard's son.

Would I want them to have an intimate biologically related brother/sister anything? -- hell no.

I'm okay with this theory, but it's this part that bugs me.

If you're putting forward a theory about their relationship, technical origin makes little difference. They grew up as a close brother and sister; they didn't know anything about R+L=J, and even if they find out later, they will remain brother and sister in their eyes. Now, that can still turn into something else, and it might have begun as something else, but saying that it has no incestuous overtones just because of genetics is something that annoys me. I'm not saying it's gross or untrue, just that you have to accept it as it is; a big brother and little sister relationship turning romantic/sexual. So really it makes little to no difference as to their exact genetics; if the relationship is there, it would be there with or without genetic justification. So I beseech thee to stop pretending this is somehow not incest whatsoever because of a technical loophole; what matters isn't genetic technicalities, but relationship dynamics (which is why I'd consider it incestuous even if it's revealed that Arya is adopted, for example), and if you're going to follow through with this pairing, at least accept the socially-despised baggage entailed.

[Stranger's_brother]

She's pissed off because she knows her journey doesn't end with them and she has to leave her friends behind. But I am going to re-read that section in case I missed something.

Yes, but how does that negate my point that he still leaves her, despite her being angry?

So you don't see that, yet your reasoning for her and Gendry hooking up is because he reminds her of Jon?

Do you know this phenomenon where people often date or marry people who are similar to their parents or other relatives? I think this is what GRRM is basically trying to invoke here. That is, if Arya is interested in Gendry, it is possible this has to do with him reminding her of Jon, without her being into Jon.

Also, I'm not reasoning for them hooking up. I'm saying the text hints at the possibility. For all I know, Arya will take over the Faceless Men and become a completely genderless assassin, and Gendry will marry one of the numerous Freys. Whatever tickles Martin's fancy.

And if it turned out that Jon was her cousin, you would consider it incest and inappropriate? Bearing in mind this happens all within the confines of GRRMs medieval like world?

Westermarck Effect has been mentioned above. It does essentially mean that people that grow up together usually don't develop romantic feelings for one another. Even though Arya was only eight years old when they separated, they grew up thinking of each other as siblings over these eight years. They still think of each other as siblings when it's three years later. So, I don't consider it incestuous in the sense that they are too closely related, but I think it is unlikely that they would feel romantically towards each other, because they would consider it as incestuous, due to growing up together.

[StarkWolf]

I could accept and understand the 'socially despised baggage' if this was in the context of the 21st Century and they grew up together within the normal environs of todays family. If it were like this, and as you say one sibling turned out to be adopted, then yes I would find it more than a little disconcerting if some sort of sexual relationship ensued. Then again who are we to judge?

But we are not talking about todays society. How can they have grown up together when Arya left at such a young age? And from what I see into their stories, for supposed siblings they have rather a deep connection. It doesn't fit the dynamics of your average sibling relationship. They seem more than brother and sister, to me anyway :dunno:

Don't forget this is all happening in world modeled on the medieval era. Frankly, from all the other stuff that has happened in the novels you'd think people would become de-sensitized at this stage. Enough to keep an open mind in any case.

[dobegrrrl]

You might very well be right, as Martin is a sick bastard, but I think it's unlikely in this case. It's your theory though, feel free to laugh in our faces if you turn out to be correct. I do think the Westermarck Effect is a valid argument against it. Jaime/Cersei are freaks-in a way their relationship is almost mastubatory rather than incestuous. The Targaryens are raised from childbirth to believe incest is best. I don't see a lot of evidence that there were many happy marriages in that family, fwiw-they marry out of duty. ;)

For the record, I'm not even advocating for a Gendry/Arya ship-I do think Martin wants us to want them to get together, perhaps with the sole purpose of disappointing us. I don't think we're finished with Gendry as he's likely to end up as Robert's heir, I just don't know what will come of his charactor.

and this is taking the thread WAY off subject but I've often wonder if Aegon IV (?)'s decree to legitimize his royal bastards can some how be interpreted to legitimize ALL royal bastards. It would clean up a lot of little issues if someone takes a look at that and uses it a precedent.

[Timur Khal]

I could accept and understand the 'socially despised baggage' if this was in the context of the 21st Century and they grew up together within the normal environs of todays family. If it were like this, and as you say one sibling turned out to be adopted, then yes I would find it more than a little disconcerting if some sort of sexual relationship ensued. Then again who are we to judge?

But we are not talking about todays society. How can they have grown up together when Arya left at such a young age? And from what I see into their stories, for supposed siblings they have rather a deep connection. It doesn't fit the dynamics of your average sibling relationship. They seem more than brother and sister, to me anyway :dunno:

Don't forget this is all happening in world modeled on the medieval era. Frankly, from all the other stuff that has happened in the novels you'd think people would become de-sensitized at this stage. Enough to keep an open mind in any case.

I'm not saying that it's disgusting by medieval standards, just that many modern-day viewers like to close their eyes and pretend that it isn't wrong by modern-day ethics since they might be technically first cousins. They still grew up together, after all, and while they did split at a young age, it's still more than enough of a bond to make it more like Jaime/Cersei than Ned/Catelyn (I'm not saying that their relationship is like Cersei's ego-fetish or the like, simply that it's the development of a sibling love into a romantic love, and that such relationship dynamics ensue. Also I'll point out that it makes little to no difference to the relationship as to heritage, only to if the shippers feel justified)

That's all that I'm saying.

[StarkWolf]

I do think the Westermarck Effect is a valid argument against it.

It's a good theory but I don't believe it applies in this context. As for Gendry, I don't think we've seen the last of him either. Renly is dead, Stannis has no male heir and somehow I don't see him making it alive to the end of the series. It's possible Gendry could become the prominent Baratheon, if he manages to get a royal decree to that effect.

and this is taking the thread WAY off subject but I've often wonder if Aegon IV (?)'s decree to legitimize his royal bastards can some how be interpreted to legitimize ALL royal bastards. It would clean up a lot of little issues if someone takes a look at that and uses it a precedent.

But then that would only apply to Royal bastards. The rest would still have to petition to become legit.

I'm not saying that it's disgusting by medieval standards, just that many modern-day viewers like to close their eyes and pretend that it isn't wrong by modern-day ethics since they might be technically first cousins. They still grew up together, after all, and while they did split at a young age, it's still more than enough of a bond to make it more like Jaime/Cersei than Ned/Catelyn (I'm not saying that their relationship is like Cersei's ego-fetish or the like, simply that it's the development of a sibling love into a romantic love, and that such relationship dynamics ensue. Also I'll point out that it makes little to no difference to the relationship as to heritage, only to if the shippers feel justified)

That's all that I'm saying.

That is the second reference to 'shipper' - someone mind explaining?

[kephv]

They grew up as a close brother and sister; they didn't know anything about R+L=J, and even if they find out later, they will remain brother and sister in their eyes. Now, that can still turn into something else, and it might have begun as something else, but saying that it has no incestuous overtones just because of genetics is something that annoys me.

Who's to say how they'll react to each other when/if they meet again? Plus, Jon has changed so much and so has Arya, who's trying to change her identity and forget her old self. If Arya and Jon meet again and they know they're not brother/sister, their relationship could very well take on an entirely different meaning for both. It may not be the same two people looking at each other basically.

And besides, Arya seems to have such a strong relationship with death that I can totally see the possibility of her falling in love with Jon.

Also, even if he's Rhaegar's son, they're still cousins so it's incest either way.

[Timur Khal]

That is the second reference to 'shipper' - someone mind explaining?

A 'shipper' is slang for someone who supports a pairing of two characters, which is called 'shipping' (as in a verb). The noun 'shipping' refers to the pairing which a shipper ships. So a popular shipping is, for example, Sansa/Sandor.

Also, a tidbit: a 'crack shipping' is a joke pairing, My personal crack-pairing is Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister, but thats for another thread.

[Timur Khal]

Who's to say how they'll react to each other when/if they meet again? Plus, Jon has changed so much and so has Arya, who's trying to change her identity and forget her old self. If Arya and Jon meet again and they know they're not brother/sister, their relationship could very well take on an entirely different meaning for both. It may not be the same two people looking at each other basically.

And besides, Arya seems to have such a strong relationship with death that I can totally see the possibility of her falling in love with Jon.

Also, even if he's Rhaegar's son, they're still cousins so it's incest either way.

I was addressing more of the pre-leaving relationship idea. Although, the memories of their past relationship would at least create some very strange overtones to their relationship, although with those two, I don't think the relationship had a chance of being 'normal' to begin with.

[Stranger's_brother]

That is the second reference to 'shipper' - someone mind explaining?

Someone who strongly, passionately roots for a relationship between two characters - it doesn't matter if they are actually a (potential) couple in canon or have never met, whether their orientations are incompatible or they are related. You want them together, you most likely ship them. I, for example, ship Littlefinger/Moon Door.

TVTropes explains it well: http://tvtropes.org/...p/Main/Shipping

ETA: I kan spel

[StarkWolf]

Also, even if he's Rhaegar's son, they're still cousins so it's incest either way.

Cousins marrying in todays world would be considered incestual however it was standard procedure during medieval times. So in the context of Westeros I wouldn't consider it incest.

A 'shipper' is slang for someone who supports a pairing of two characters, which is called 'shipping' (as in a verb). The noun 'shipping' refers to the pairing which a shipper ships. So a popular shipping is, for example, Sansa/Sandor.

Also, a tidbit: a 'crack shipping' is a joke pairing, My personal crack-pairing is Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister, but thats for another thread.

Thanks for clearing that up :) and Tywin is too good for the likes of Bolton. He should be joined with a giant and led around on a leash naked.

[kephv]

A 'shipper' is slang for someone who supports a pairing of two characters, which is called 'shipping' (as in a verb). The noun 'shipping' refers to the pairing which a shipper ships. So a popular shipping is, for example, Sansa/Sandor.

Also, a tidbit: a 'crack shipping' is a joke pairing, My personal crack-pairing is Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister, but thats for another thread.

Thanks. I was wondering about that as well.

Also, I wouldn't call this a crack ship but

Stoneheart and Undead Jon would easily work in my opinion. Think of all the undead bastard babies those two could make.

Actually, there'd probably have to be a new ship term created for something that messed up. :ack:

Cousins marrying in todays world would be considered incestual however it was standard procedure during medieval times. So in the context of Westeros I wouldn't consider it incest.

True. I was thinking more in todays terms though. Either way, I don't mind.

[dobegrrrl]

I, for example, ship Littlefinger/Moon Door.

I'm all for that 'ship!

[Timur Khal]

Thanks. I was wondering about that as well.

Also, I wouldn't call this a crack ship but

Stoneheart and Undead Jon would easily work in my opinion. Think of all the undead bastard babies those two could make.

Actually, there'd probably have to be a new ship term created for something that messed up. :ack:

nope. that sounds like a perfectly acceptable crack shipping :laugh:

After hearing of Drogon/LadyStoneheart, Other/Manderly, and Varys/Shagga and Stone-Jon on top, I think I've seen it all now :wideeyed:

[Stranger's_brother]

nope. that sounds like a perfectly acceptable crack shipping :laugh:

After hearing of Drogon/LadyStoneheart, Other/Manderly, and Varys/Shagga and Stone-Jon on top, I think I've seen it all now :wideeyed:

It's not that weird on the surface, but recently I've seen Stannis/Sansa...

[lady crackhead]

That's what grosses people out. If you grew up with someone who you thought was your sister, then found out later she wasn't, you don't think it would be weird if you started having sexual feelings for her?

Theon did. Have sexual feelings AND be sqwicked out. But it's contrived because he left Pyke at 9 or 10yrs old; he would have still recognized Asha at 19yrs old, even after 10 years apart. So it really doesnt matter what we all think, it only matters what Martin wants us to think. And it's a fantasy book full of incestTM.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Ok , this is probably the worst theory ever that i saw on this forum and i saw some really bad ones .

After seeing people shipping Sansa and Sandor, nothing really surprises me here...