Arya & Jon

[lady crackhead]

Cousins marrying in todays world would be considered incestual however it was standard procedure during medieval times. So in the context of Westeros I wouldn't consider it incest.

No; not. Plenty of cultures still marry cousins, and it's still done in the US from time to time.

He should be joined with a giant and led around on a leash naked.

Joined where?

[Dragonfish]

It's a good theory but I don't believe it applies in this context.

Why not? The Westermarck effect has been observed in a variety of cultures since the 1800's. There's nothing to suggest that it's some sort of 21st-century invention.

That said, since Jon is 6 years older than Arya, it's possible that he wouldn't experience this sort of "reverse sexual imprinting" with Arya, since it typically occurs during the first 6 years of life. However, it's likely that Arya would have been affected by the Westermarck effect, since she grew up with Jon for the first 8 years of her life.

[Silverin]

I never got that feeling. I mean Jon often thinks about Robb as well. And I know there are some shipping them, but I never got the idea that it meant to be more than sibling relationship either.

But who knows, it doesn't mean it can't happen after all this is written by GRRM.

That doesn't mean that I wouln't be all :stillsick: about it.

[StarkWolf]

Why not? The Westermarck effect has been observed in a variety of cultures since the 1800's. There's nothing to suggest that it's some sort of 21st-century invention.

It's not ineffectual based on the era of its origins but by the fact that you want it to apply to the world of Westeros. GRRM certainly doesn't seem to be using it as a template.

No; not. Plenty of cultures still marry cousins, and it's still done in the US from time to time.

It's not illegal in many countries but it is generally frowned upon nowadays. Thats what I was alluding to.

Joined where?

Lol

** note to self... choose ones words carefully

[Lady of Long Lake]

There's nothing incestuous about Jon & Arya. Is just the fact that in every other family, the siblings hate each other or are sleeping together makes people paranoid.

That's how I see it too. Jon and Arya's sibling love is the only strong and normal love in the series. It isn't weird or unbrotherly. It's the rest of the world that's all f'd up.

Looking at their family dynamics, it's no wonder those two came to love each other so strongly. Caitlyn hated Jon and she rode Arya's ass daily for being a disappointment ( so un-ladylike). The two outcasts were drawn to each other for acceptance. It makes perfect sense that they would form an army of two to make their emotional armor stronger.

[Winter's Breath]

I watched HBOs Game of Thrones before I even read the books and the feeling I got there was that somehow Jon and Arya were a future love interest. That is after I figured out he wasn't Neds biological son.

Since reading the books, this feeling has strengthened. They are very close, in a most unbrother/sister like way. They are on the same wavelength, finishing each others sentences etc. Arya has said that the only other person, apart from her father, who called her pretty was Jon. He compared Ygritte to her and I don't buy into the Freudian Oedipal theory to explain it away either.

What's most telling in ADwD is his reaction to the fake Aryas predicament. When Eddard died, yes he thought about leaving but remained true to the Night Watch. Even when Robb, Bran and Rickon were killed and Winterfell was sacked, he remained at the Wall. Yet for Arya he gets involved.

They are going to be reunited at some stage. With Jon dying, possibly being re-born in a different body as Azor Ahai, and Aryas abilities from the Faceless Men they may not recognise each other. Although they will probably figure it out.

Does anyone else think this pairing is a distinct possibility or would like to see it happen?

I think Jon and Ayra will meet up, but it will not turn out like that. There is strong evidence that when Jon wakes up he will be an Other. He dreamed of having cold hard skin, and Dany sees it in the house of the undying. He can still be AA reborn, but in order for the others to be completely destroyed he will have to die to. This is were Ayra will come in. Jon will ask for death, and Ayra, serving the FM will have to oblige in a tragic ending.

[Melpomene]

I didn't really see a romantic connection either.

As others have brought up, even if it was true that they aren't -directly- biologically related (and thus cousins instead) they think they are and grew up their entire lives as such.

Not only are they different because of their background/personalities, but they also looked alike - Arya and Jon are the only ones with brown hair and long faces, whereas the rest of the siblings had auburn hair and physically looked more like Catelyn. Which contributes to their bond even further - a special kind of bond that contains mutual understanding and basic companionship. It's quite a normal, yet pure kind of relationship.

Plus, for a good while Arya thought that anything romance related was gross and stupid lol So whether with Jon or not, the concept would be out fo the question in her mind.

But hey, it is an interesting topic nevertheless, considering that GMMR's world overall regarding love and romance is really complex and unstraightforward (And sometimes messed up as heck)

[Fournaridis]

Theon did. Have sexual feelings AND be sqwicked out. But it's contrived because he left Pyke at 9 or 10yrs old; he would have still recognized Asha at 19yrs old, even after 10 years apart. So it really doesnt matter what we all think, it only matters what Martin wants us to think. And it's a fantasy book full of incestTM.

It is a tad contrived, but - I dunno, man.

After 10 years, recognizing someone you knew as an adult is one thing, but someone you last knew as a child who's grown into an adult, especially when you have had no contact whatsoever with them...I dunno, it seems believable to me.

But, my opinion is rather biased.

I once had a childhood friend, we were very close, we did everything together as often as we could. When he moved away, I cried my eyes out. ANYWAYS, 15 years later, he returned to my state and came to my house - not even knowing if I would be there, or not.

I was sitting on the porch doing a crossword puzzle. When he pulled up and got out of the car, I had no idea who he was. Even after talking to me, I still had no clue who he was. Once he said his name though, bam, it hit me.

I forgot what point I was trying to make with that anecdote, though....

[Glyn Tarvoke]

I watched season 1 and then read all 5 books. I personally don't get anything but fraternal love between Jon and Arya. If anything I see a parallel between Jon/Arya and Eddard/Lyanna. Sort of the older, doting brother and younger, somewhat wild sister.

And I hope GRRM's incest thing is fulfilled with the Targs and Cersei/Jaime. One word: ick.

I concur (with the slight quibble that I'm pretty sure Lyanna was Ned's older sister). Arya's Jon's favorite sister. It seems all the Stark kids, including Jon, love one another. But GOT makes clear Jon and Arya have a special bond. Unless GRMM has left out of five novels the I'm sure non-existent scene where Jon gives Sansa an actual sewing needle. Don't recall that happening though so I guess it didn't.

[Glyn Tarvoke]

If Arya is fond in a romantic way of any boys at this young age--and I don't think she is as makes sense from her character and age and ho she talks and acts --then I'd say it was Gendry she sort of liked, not Jon Snow. It seemed to me Gendry obviously liked her, in a brotherly sort of way. Until he found out she was a lady, then he cooled to her since he's seen so many lordling types act like complete jerks.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I concur (with the slight quibble that I'm pretty sure Lyanna was Ned's older sister)

Ned was 5 years older than Lyanna.

[BrosBeforeSnows]

I think it's entirely possible that Arya has no interest in Jon, not because he's her brother, or because she's only 11 years old, but because she's an overt, in-your-face lesbian. GRRM has basically said as much (I made that up).

At the end of the series, Arya will hook up with the Waif and run off to Lys with her, where they will live as Lysbians.

[Ivy Snow]

I do understand the point here and I also have the feeling that there's something really different, or lets say, " special" between Jon and Arya. Their conversations, the way they remember each other despite being far away just says a lot. Maybe it's because they are bonded more than any other Stark sibling, but I have a feeling that there's more to that. I don't know if it's gonna be romantic or what, but I agree that there really is something special between them, other that the older brother- younger sister relatonship.

To other posters, try to be nice to the OP, lol. He's just sharing one of his theories, besides, Sansa thought he can marry sweet cousin Robin, right? He even kisses her on the lips. They are cousins and barely know each other so why be so grossed out IF Arya and Jon would develop something more after knowing they are just cousins. They do have strong connection and bond anyway.

[Dragonfish]

To other posters, try to be nice to the OP, lol. He's just sharing one of his theories, besides, Sansa thought he can marry sweet cousin Robin, right? He even kisses her on the lips. They are cousins and barely know each other so why be so grossed out IF Arya and Jon would develop something more after knowing they are just cousins.

Because, as has been pointed out numerous times, Jon and Arya grew up as brother and sister, and are emotionally brother and sister. This is something that Sansa and Robert Arryn never did. If they had, then I'd be just as grossed out about that pairing as I am about a Jon/Arya pairing.

[StarkWolf]

I do understand the point here and I also have the feeling that there's something really different, or lets say, " special" between Jon and Arya. Their conversations, the way they remember each other despite being far away just says a lot. Maybe it's because they are bonded more than any other Stark sibling, but I have a feeling that there's more to that. I don't know if it's gonna be romantic or what, but I agree that there really is something special between them, other that the older brother- younger sister relatonship.

Some see it.

Because, as has been pointed out numerous times, Jon and Arya grew up as brother and sister, and are emotionally brother and sister. This is something that Sansa and Robert Arryn never did. If they had, then I'd be just as grossed out about that pairing as I am about a Jon/Arya pairing.

Some clearly don't.

[Dragonfish]

Nevermind.

[Spearwife262]

I just never even thought of that. O_o I think that would disturb me even more than Cersei and Jaime, because they started very, very young, not really realizing what they were doing. J&A grew up together, that's as good of a bond as the one by blood for me, and it wouldn't be incestuous, but it would be weird for me and a hard bite to swallow! :eek:

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Gendry and Arya are another possibility. But I don't think they will as Arya just walks all over him. He needs to come out of his shell a bit more. He seemed to be more in awe of her than anything else.

And if we're talking about foreshadowing what about when Ned said to Arya in GoT:

"You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a high septon."

I think Jon is going to be the eventual king. Not Daenerys, Aegon, Stannis or Tommen. Someone else said that their relationship doesn't follow the normal brother/sister stereotype. And it doesn't. So I don't think it a great leap that it could progress to something else down the road.

The Westermarck Effect - thanks for the link, interesting reading. Someone maybe should've shown it to GRRM before he made Cersei and Jaime lovers. (Now that is some fucked up incest.)

Point being they don't have a 'normal' relationship to begin with.

Please show me what is "abnormal" about their relationship?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Theon did. Have sexual feelings AND be sqwicked out. But it's contrived because he left Pyke at 9 or 10yrs old; he would have still recognized Asha at 19yrs old, even after 10 years apart. So it really doesnt matter what we all think, it only matters what Martin wants us to think. And it's a fantasy book full of incestTM.

Asha was fairly unattractive in her youth, which is why Theon commented that his sister was was a sea hag, or something like that. Asha, blossomed into an attractive woman, unlike the ugly girl Theon remembered from his childhood. And if i am correct, Theon was humiliated and disgusted once he was aware of who she was. Incest between siblings is not a common practice in Westeros. The Targaryens and Jaime/Cercie are the exceptions, not the rule.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

You might very well be right, as Martin is a sick bastard, but I think it's unlikely in this case. It's your theory though, feel free to laugh in our faces if you turn out to be correct. I do think the Westermarck Effect is a valid argument against it. Jaime/Cersei are freaks-in a way their relationship is almost mastubatory rather than incestuous. The Targaryens are raised from childbirth to believe incest is best. I don't see a lot of evidence that there were many happy marriages in that family, fwiw-they marry out of duty. ;)

For the record, I'm not even advocating for a Gendry/Arya ship-I do think Martin wants us to want them to get together, perhaps with the sole purpose of disappointing us. I don't think we're finished with Gendry as he's likely to end up as Robert's heir, I just don't know what will come of his charactor.

and this is taking the thread WAY off subject but I've often wonder if Aegon IV (?)'s decree to legitimize his royal bastards can some how be interpreted to legitimize ALL royal bastards. It would clean up a lot of little issues if someone takes a look at that and uses it a precedent.

That is an excellent point as to why Cercei was so hellbent on killing all of Roberts bastards. If they weren't a legitimate threat to the throne, what is the point?