Arya & Jon

[ghost the direwolf]

Really, Jon has sexual feelings for his 9 year old sister? Everyone in the series does not harbor incestuous tendencies, you know?

sorry I did not express mysefl clearly. i was thinking In the futur . and No sexual feeling but just feelings been already there

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

sorry I did not express mysefl clearly. i was thinking In the futur . and No sexual feeling but just feelings been already there

I have six brother and we have feelings for each other that will NEVER turn sexual. What you are implying doesn't make any sense, sorry.

[Ghost714]

I don't think Jon has had sexual feelings towards Arya in the past at all, that's just weird, Arya hadn't even started her "moons blood yet".

But if Jon and Arya don't see each other for another year or so, after Arya has had her first flowering. Then I think Arya will start to growing beautiful like Lyanna was said to be around the age of sixteen. Then if Jon and Arya meet up knowing they are not brother and sister, and if they were to develope romantic feelings for each other.... I wouldn't mind it.

I think they deserve each other and I find something heartwarming about them bring together(in those circumstances that I listed)

[ghost the direwolf]

It makes sense to me because the vibe I got from reading the book is that there may be something more than just brotherly love like the PO expalined.it could grow later on into love. but only if GRRM wants to . but I have never said "sexual"

[Spearwife of the Wild]

Okay, so GRRM decided to have two incestuous couples/families in his story (even though Cersei/Jaime's ship has sailed), that opened a door for Arya and Jon. I get where THAT comes from.

BUT let's take a look at those instances :

1) The Targaryens

They marry their brothers/sisters to keep their dragon-blood as pure as possible. As a result, half of them are bat-shit crazy (see The Mad King, Viserys for the two main examples in the story). I believe it is also stated that the couples formed on that basis were not really happy to do it but complied out of respect for traditions.

Their people think the practice is weird and gross, but let it go since the royal family has all the power. They try to see it as a quirk the Targaryens brought from Old Valyria.

2) Cersei / Jaime

Jaime's love for Cersei is real : she is the only woman for him (in his mind) and he has always been faithful to her. He is happy with her (at first).

Cersei does love him, and considers Jaime to be her other half. At the same time though, she uses sex to make him do whatever she wants and totally takes him for granted, all the while ignoring the effects her decisions might have on him. This pattern culminates in Jaime ignoring her pleas for help, deciding he has better stuff to do and running off with Brienne to find Sansa.

Therefore, I think it's safe to say that GRRM is not putting incestuous relationships in a positive light. Those who take part in such relationships end up paying for it dearly (Cersei's walk of shame and general demise, Jaime loses his hand, the Targaryens are mostly dead, on the run or mad), and the relationship in itself is not a good, balanced one. The morality of Cersei and Jaime are questionable (esecially Cersei); oddly Jaime turning his back on his twin is a big part of his redemption arc.

Jon's honor is nearly as infallible as his father's. Granted, Arya kills a little easily, but she is by no means on the same level of immorality as Cersei, Jaime or the Targaryens. I cannot believe they have it in them to do that, and I cannot believe that GRRM has an incestuous relationship for them in his future plots pocket. They are constistently being put in a positive light and hailed as honorable, if somewhat damaged, youths.

Not gonna happen. AND knowing they are cousins will not change how they perceive one another : like siblings. You can't erase that kind of feeling.

[Winter's Lady]

It makes sense to me because the vibe I got from reading the book is that there may be something more than just brotherly love like the PO expalined.it could grow later on into love. but only if GRRM wants to . but I have never said "sexual"

Hmm then I still don't get your point.

They already love each other - AS. SIBLINGS. FULLSTOP.

Would be strange if they didn't.

[Alia of the knife]

Again, I think when you look at what influences Martin, I could see him borrowing a bit of Arthur and Morgana, but in Martins work, he can clean it up, and if Jon is Rhaegars son, they are cousins and not actually half-brother and sister the way Arthur and Morgana were, (which also produced a very nasty offspring).

And the amount of time they are together as kids will soon equal the amount of time they would have to be apart, which could feasibly be another nine years if he sees her again at say age eighteen.

So, the historical and literary precedence is there.

However, I think Martin would only do this to create another tragedy, and there have been too many tragedies already.

IMHO, I get the feeling that Aryas destiny lay in Dorne, or is rooted in Dorne, especially given the name she gave her direwolf which could be very symbolic.

And in the roots of Dorne, no matter where they are all scattered now, are Ned Dayne, Aegon, or even Tristan Martel, depending on what happens with Myrcella.

[Arya Targaryen]

Show me where in ASoIaF where a brother and sister relationship is described as an old school romance novel?

The rules in an old-school romance novel are more strict than in the ASOIAF world. That allows MORE in ASOIAF. If it can happen in said novel, you can't rule it out in ASOIAF, where weirder stuff happens all the time.

And I like how some posters compare their own brother-sister relationship to Jon/Arya, meaning there is no way the two will fall for each other. I would point out:

1) they are NOT brother-sister, even if they think so.

2) they were separated early

3) they both will become a different person by the time they meet next

4) if 99 out of 100 brother-sister pairs won't ever fall in love, then there is still the possibility for a minority, who may feel a bit different. Knowing they are siblings will prevent them growing into a different relationship. Realizing they are NOT siblings may remove the obstacles in their cases. So please, just don't rule out the possibiliy, even if you know you wouldn't be able to feel the same.

[Spearwife of the Wild]

The rules in an old-school romance novel are more strict than in the ASOIAF world. That allows MORE in ASOIAF. If it can happen in said novel, you can't rule it out in ASOIAF, where weirder stuff happens all the time.

And I like how some posters compare their own brother-sister relationship to Jon/Arya, meaning there is no way the two will fall for each other. I would point out:

1) they are NOT brother-sister, even if they think so.

2) they were separated early

3) they both will become a different person by the time they meet next

4) if 99 out of 100 brother-sister pairs won't ever fall in love, then there is still the possibility for a minority, who may feel a bit different. Knowing they are siblings will prevent them growing into a different relationship. Realizing they are NOT siblings may remove the obstacles in their cases. So please, just don't rule out the possibiliy, even if you know you wouldn't be able to feel the same.

1) Although I agree with you, we don't know that yet. But anyways as I said, once you see someone like a sibling, you can't stop that.

2) Arya was 8-9 and Jon Snow was 14-15. I do NOT call that early, especially in the case of Jon. Early would be separated as infants or toddlers. At that age, and even more so in Westeros where you are considered an adult way younger, Jon is almost all grown up. In fact, he could get married and have children by now. His frame of reference is all formed up and there is no way he is ever going to see Arya as something other than a sibling.

3) No. They will be Arya Stark and Jon Snow, with a few inches more. Maybe bewbs for Arya, that depends when they will meet again. There's also the fact that the age difference between them is pretty big. Jon was 7-8 years old when Arya was born, that's old enough to remember what she looked like in diapers. Her first steps. That time she pooed in the bath. etc.

4) How many pairs of siblings are there in ASOIAF? A bunch, probably close to a hundred actually. There's one incestuous couple, Jaime and Cersei. I believe Viserys would have wanted to marry Danaerys if he had lived. So let's say two. Statistically, that would be it. Your stats argument doesn't work.

I'm not completely ruling out the possibility, but the way I see it it has a 2% chance of happening.

Not to mention how cheap it would be on GRRM's part to turn the one affectionate, deep relationship between a man and a woman into a romantic one. Cause it doesn't have to always be that way, you know.

[Yana]

Well, this is an old theory and like before, there are a lot of people shipping Arya and Jon. However, like someone else mentioned above, I think people get this feeling because every other sibling couple in the series hate each other or have a very disturbing relationship. Arya and Jon simply have a deeper connection because of their position as the black sheep in the Stark family. There is nothing sexual there. I mean, surely a brother and sister can love each other? (They are both Starks and they grew up as brother and sister, which makes them brother and sister, it doesn't matter who Jon's parents are).

Also, incest may be a common thing in these books, but George uses it to point everything that is wrong with certain characters and certain traditions. Relationship between Jamie and Cercei is one of the strongest weapons used against them. Everyone is horrified by it. It's not something to aspire to and I doubt that George will make two of his most important characters go that way.

[Arya Targaryen]

Also, incest may be a common thing in these books, but George uses it to point everything that is wrong with certain characters and certain traditions. Relationship between Jamie and Cercei is one of the strongest weapons used against them. Everyone is horrified by it. It's not something to aspire to and I doubt that George will make two of his most important characters go that way.

But a relationship between cousins is NOT incest! It's totally normal (in ASOIAF, at least)! I'm pretty sure that R+L=J, so I don't want to argue about that here.

People IRL can argue about growing up as siblings and its results, knowing research studies and stuff, but I'm sure that in ASOIAF's world people don't have this scientific attitude. And Arya /Jon could be a deep brother-sister love turning into LOVE without being incestous!

They may or may not develop romantic feelings. If they do that will clearly indicate that they do not think of each other as siblings any more. They have the right to do that, if they want. If they don't, well, that's it. No one would force them (although it would be interesting if they would be forced to marry out of pure political reasons. I could come up with some crackpot theory for that... :D )

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

But a relationship between cousins is NOT incest! It's totally normal (in ASOIAF, at least)! I'm pretty sure that R+L=J, so I don't want to argue about that here.

People IRL can argue about growing up as siblings and its results, knowing research studies and stuff, but I'm sure that in ASOIAF's world people don't have this scientific attitude. And Arya /Jon could be a deep brother-sister love turning into LOVE without being incestous!

They may or may not develop romantic feelings. If they do that will clearly indicate that they do not think of each other as siblings any more. They have the right to do that, if they want. If they don't, well, that's it. No one would force them (although it would be interesting if they would be forced to marry out of pure political reasons. I could come up with some crackpot theory for that... :D )

If you share blood it IS incest. The reason that I believe Tywin didn't care about Jaime/Cercsei is because his wife was his cousin. Most marriages in Westeros are not between relatives. Only the Targaryen's practiced incest as a way of life, and well Craster. If you look through the genealogy on the Wiki, you will see that. Why would GRRM want to make Jon and Arya a couple? What would be the purpose of Arya/Jon? How would that relate to the story thus far and moving forward? These characters have much more important things to contend with than romance. I wouldn't be surprised if neither one of them are alive by the end of the story. One of the many reasons that I love ASoIaF is that there aren't any sappy romantic storylines. You can pick-up any $2 novel and find a mind numbing romance story. Jaime and Cercei’s relationship has clouded the vision of many a reader.

[Arya Targaryen]

If you share blood it IS incest.

Most marriages in Westeros are not between relatives.

1) As I understand it, it is incest only if you are VERY close relatives. How close? Well, that depends on the laws/custom/culture. If it is acceptable to marry cousins then it is not incest.

You say that if you share blood... but how much blood? I don't know the exact terms in English for such relatives, but imagine the great-great-great-great-grandson/granddaughter of your great-great-great-great-grandfather. You share blood. Would it be incest? Hell, no, not even genetically - such distant relative actually shares less genom with you that any random person (statistically, I mean)

2) In Westeros most marriages are political. There is usually no political use in marrying cousins to each other. That's why it is rare. We don't know how the smallfolk thinks about it. Women may not even know who the father of their children is, with all those rape around. Half-sisters and half-brothers may end up unknowingly with each other. (I just recall: didn't Gendry had a thing with one of Robert's bastard daugthers? They are half-siblings. Anyone disgusted?)

Anyway, we know Lysa considered to marry Sansa to Sweetrobin. They are cousins. Alys Karstark would have been married to her uncle - and it wasn't considered incest, though they were closely related. Alys' main problem was that her uncle was a traitor (trying to usurp her and Harrion's right), and an asshole. And being honest, quite old.

[ViennaGirl]

I will freak out in absolute horror if Jon and Arya are ever sexually involved, even if they do turn out to be cousins, rather than siblings. For me, the operative factor is that they were raised as siblings. I could never get over the ick factor if two of my favorite characters went from a normal sib relationship to sex. Especially since we, the readers, knew them both as children.

It's slightly different with Jaime and Cersei because when you meet them, they're already involved, they're the same age, and they're already adults. But it's still repulsive. Jaime only becomes likeable when he starts distancing himself from Cersei.

[teemo]

If you share blood it IS incest. The reason that I believe Tywin didn't care about Jaime/Cercsei is because his wife was his cousin. Most marriages in Westeros are not between relatives. Only the Targaryen's practiced incest as a way of life, and well Craster. If you look through the genealogy on the Wiki, you will see that. Why would GRRM want to make Jon and Arya a couple? What would be the purpose of Arya/Jon? How would that relate to the story thus far and moving forward? These characters have much more important things to contend with than romance. I wouldn't be surprised if neither one of them are alive by the end of the story. One of the many reasons that I love ASoIaF is that there aren't any sappy romantic storylines. You can pick-up any $2 novel and find a mind numbing romance story. Jaime and Cercei’s relationship has clouded the vision of many a reader.

Agreed!! I never even thought of this as a possibility until this thread. And I also hate sappy, romantic storylines. GRRM completely avoided the whole Jeyne/Jeyne's family/Robb/Lannisters/Freys saga which could have been some seriously mushy crap. However, I'm sure the show will eat it up. I doubt it will be too cheesy though :)

[Serie]

love is never repulsive... :P

[Mumatil]

All I see is a brother/sister love.

Hard to imagine I know(siblings caring about one another!?)

Not everything has to lead to incest.

[Nausicaä]

I don't get it, are there not enough women in Westeros that people end up always pairing poor Jon with a woman of his family? :bang: it's time to start the platform: For an incest- free future for Jon!! :commie:

Maybe it's time for another public service announcement a la "Targs are not immune to fire!"

"There are more than 5 women in Westeros and not everyone has to marry their relatives!"

Gah.

How about a "Let people ship whatever they ship" platform/public announcement? Obviously, the pairings you talk about did not come to be because people thought there was a lack of other options, but because some of them are genuinely interested in what they think is a possibility for romantic subplot for the future books. No character "has to" marry anyone, but you do want some of them to marry and have ideas as to whom they should marry, do you not? It's the same for others, just the personal preferences differ.

It's perfectly fine that you're squicked out by incest and don't want Jon to end up with a woman of his family, but a little understanding for other fans would be nice.

If you had siblings, and suddenly found out that one of them is not really your sibling(adopted, whatever). Would you suddenly change your perception of that person and think "Dang, I'd hit that!" ? Probably not.

So, you are saying that if you were seperated from your sibling for years you would no longer see them as a sibling and begin a sexual relationship when you are reconciled?

Shipping preferences are in no way connected to what the person would or would not do or approve of in real life.

I ignore if Martin is aware of that fact, but it's something that we (almost) all know instinctively. That is the rule, and incest in the exception. It's not like learning they're actually cousins will change how they see each other: they grew up together, loved each other in a brotherly way (and yes, brotherly love IS different from sexual love) and that is not going to change.

So there are exceptions to the rule and some people are attracted others with whom they have a sibling connection/grew up with, but it's not possible for members of the Stark family to be one of those exceptions..?

I believe it is also stated that the couples formed on that basis were not really happy to do it but complied out of respect for traditions.

Their people think the practice is weird and gross, but let it go since the royal family has all the power. They try to see it as a quirk the Targaryens brought from Old Valyria.

Therefore, I think it's safe to say that GRRM is not putting incestuous relationships in a positive light. Those who take part in such relationships end up paying for it dearly (Cersei's walk of shame and general demise, Jaime loses his hand, the Targaryens are mostly dead, on the run or mad), and the relationship in itself is not a good, balanced one.

There are some seriously disturbing relationships between Targaryens, like the ones between Aerys and Rhaella or Aegon the Unworthy and Naerys, but no one ever has anything hegative to say about the relationships Aegon had with his sister-wives (and they are seen as this awesome power trio) or the happy marriage of Jaehaerys and Alysanne or Bloodraven's and Bittersteel's affections for Shiera Seastar or the love between Queen Naerys and Aemon the Dragonknight, which is only ever portrayed as romantic and tragic and the ultimate love story. I would say that people of Westeros treat the incest tradition as a Valyrian quirk to tolerate, but both them and Martin recognize that the individual relationships are not that different from non-incestuous ones and judge them for what they are, not solely the incest factor. If Jaime and Cersei were not related, their relationship would be just as messed up. That Naerys and Aemon were siblings doesn't make their love story any less beautiful or worthy of recognition as such.

Martin could take Jon and Arya down the same path as Arthur and Morgana le Fey, especially if somehow they meet and she's wearing a different "face." :stillsick:

But, many years will have to pass before that kind of relationship would be appropriate, say she is sixteen, or seventeen.

I don't think Arya will reach sixteen in the remaining books, even if Martin writes more than the planned two. It's one of the reasons I think that if she's going to be involved in a romantic subplot, it will be with a boy close to her own age.

I personally think she's going to be in the middle of a triangle between Aegon and Ned Dayne, with Dayne being Aryas preferrence.

IMHO, I get the feeling that Aryas destiny lay in Dorne, or is rooted in Dorne, especially given the name she gave her direwolf which could be very symbolic.

If she ended up with Ned Dayne, it would be a really lovely ending, imo (and I'm not just saying that because they remind me of Lyanna and Arthur Dayne, whom I also like together, lol). Arya would feel comfortable and free in Dorne.

--------------------------

As a side-note to this discussion..

Jeyne Poole started calling Arya Horseface because she was a little bitch, like Sansa. Talk about just desserts...

Wow. Just, wow. :stillsick:

[Winter's Lady]

How about a "Let people ship whatever they ship" platform/public announcement? Obviously, the pairings you talk about did not come to be because people thought there was a lack of other options, but because some of them are genuinely interested in what they think is a possibility for romantic subplot for the future books. No character "has to" marry anyone, but you do want some of them to marry and have ideas as to whom they should marry, do you not? It's the same for others, just the personal preferences differ.

It's perfectly fine that you're squicked out by incest and don't want Jon to end up with a woman of his family, but a little understanding for other fans would be nice.

Yes, everybody is entitled to their opinion of course, I admit I got kind of carried away there.

But it's just that I can't see any basis for this ship. With Dany, Val, Asha, Alys, Melisandre, or Arya/Gendry, Sansa/Sandor etc. I sort of see where people are coming from. Not here. Sorry.

Shipping preferences are in no way connected to what the person would or would not do or approve of in real life.

Of course, I agree.

That's not the point. The point is that within the story the perception of those characters of one another would not change because they get to wear the label 'cousins' instead of 'siblings'. At least not with the way I understand those characters. Drawing real life parallels should merely help to explain that.

[Ghost714]

If Arya saves Jon's life, or if Jon saves Arya's life, I could definitely see them developing feelings for each other, in a romantic way. Especially if Jon were to save Arya and then if Arya were to save Jon. If only one does the life saving, then most likely the one who's life was saved, that would be the one to develope feeling for the other one. So I could totally see GRRM having both of them save one another's life, if GRRM wants them to be together, that would be the best way to make them develope romantic feelings for each other, in a realistic way. If your life is saved by someone, many times people have developed romantic feelings for that person. If a sibling has their life saved by a sibling, that can sometimes be enough to over power the whole "gross they are my sibling factor".

(Here is for hoping they save each others lives lol)