The Official Cersei Lannister Appreciation thread

[Evamitchelle]

Is sexual jealousy the new insult concerning Jaime now ? A lot of divorces happen because one or both spouses cheated on their partners, are they all huge drama-queens who should totes get over it because "it's just sex !!!" ? It seems a pretty legit gripe to have with your partner of over 3 decades IMO. Jaime isn't just angry with Cersei because she slept with other men (otherwise he'd be repeating Robert's name along with Lancel's and Osmund's) he's angry because he just found out she's been lying to him repeatedly.

[brashcandy]

She became alienated from him because he wouldn't support her and she could no longer use him to do her bidding. That's why she saw him as useless and wanted him gone.

Once again, Cersei is the evil queen and Jaime is the poor smuck she was trying to use all the time. Rolling my eyes!! Cersei actually made it clear that she needed Jaime, but he was too busy having the pity party of a lifetime to think straight. Jaime didn't up and leave because he felt Cersei was immoral; he left because she refused to entertain his folly on the marriage, and he could not get past her sleeping with other men.

Irrelevant. Jaime wasn't in the position of power, Cersei was. And yes, his decision was influenced by that, as he clearly didn't agree with how she was running things. He also was thinking about getting Tommen away from her before she destroyed him like she did Joff.

Wow, yes. Jaime begins to show some care and concern for those children after how long again......? And he's supposed to be lauded for that? His thoughts about telling Myrcella and Tommen that they're really bastards shows just how much Jaime's care and concern went. Again, not much further than himself.

Good thing I never claimed that then. And yes, he was under her influence - so to speak - before. "The things I do for love" says it all. After he found out what a lying, cheating sneak she was, he moved passed that. By rejecting her, he was not only saying he didn't agree with her, but breaking away from her poison influence as well.

Another puzzling argument that I've seen one too many times to count. This idea that Cersei was making Jaime do her bidding like he was some zombie is absurd. Certainly she may have requested him to do certain things, but Jaime has a mind of his own. It was Jaime who pushed Bran after all - the pinnacle of wretched acts in the series. He did not suddenly find out Cersei wasn't the angel of his dreams because she cheated on him. It was petty jealousy plain and simple. I really think that people hold Jaime in high esteem because he states that he never had another woman but his sister. Ah folks... that isn't normal, and really highlights that something is a bit messed up with the man's sexuality.

Cersei isn't to be demonized because of his inability/refusal to be intimate with other women. Jaime, shirking his responsibility as a parent and refusing to be the heir of Casterly Rock, can afford to be above and beyond the problems that Cersei finds herself mired in. Whilst he can be play the faithful lover role, Cersei has to engage in some things that she makes clear she would rather have not to. We also have Arianne Martell as another woman who uses her body to get what she wants, but somehow I never hear her being villified like Cersei is, and her plans failed just as badly.

You're right. He knew who she was all along but he obvoiusly didn't care because he loved her. But he took his Cersei blinders off and did what he probably should've done a while ago - which, as I explained, was more than just Jaime feeling jealous.

Nope. It all really boiled down to the jealousy. Maybe it was a bit off putting for him to see this new Cersei - a bit more rebellious to him, not so willing to jump into his bed etc etc, but the breaking point for them was when Tyrion told of him of Lancel and Moonboy. Why else does Martin have him playing that over and over in his mind except to highlight that it is this in particular that Jaime cannot overcome?

[Alexia]

1. Cersei is Jaime's sister. Yep, sexual jealousy is relevant and in this case highly unhealthy. He should not be feeling jealous of her sex partners.

2. Yes, plenty of divorces happen because of sexual jealousy and there is nothing wrong with that or the people feeling those particular emotions (unless they are the sibling of the said partner, in which there are serious issues going on). But let's not pretend this has anything to do with Jaime discovering who Cersei really is (he knew all along), or anything of the sort. It is simple sexual jealousy. Which would be okay, in your average situation, but given that Cersei is his sister is just plain wrong and not very flattering to him.

[Evamitchelle]

1. Cersei is Jaime's sister. Yep, sexual jealousy is relevant and in this case highly unhealthy. He should not be feeling jealous of her sex partners.

He should also not be sleeping with her, but he is. Once that bridge is crossed you can't dismiss the fact that she's not just his sister but his lover as well, and he expects of her the same that any other person would of his/her lover. Cersei expects just the same of him : she was extremely jealous of her girlhood friend Melara Heatherspoon because she asked the maegi if she'd marry Jaime, and she also showed jealousy when Kevan told her Jaime had left with Brienne in the Riverlands before vanishing. Their relationship as a whole is unhealthy, it doesn't suddenly become twisted in AFFC when Jaime learns of her other dalliances.

2. Yes, plenty of divorces happen because of sexual jealousy and there is nothing wrong with that or the people feeling those particular emotions (unless they are the sibling of the said partner, in which there are serious issues going on). But let's not pretend this has anything to do with Jaime discovering who Cersei really is (he knew all along), or anything of the sort. It is simple sexual jealousy. Which would be okay, in your average situation, but given that Cersei is his sister is just plain wrong and not very flattering to him.

I never said Cersei brainwashed Jaime into doing bad things. I answered the sister thing above.

[Alexia]

I never said Cersei brainwashed Jaime into doing bad things. I answered the sister thing above.

Then I'm not sure exactly where we disagree. If we both agree that he feels unhealthy sexual jealousy towards her and that is what separated them.

[Evamitchelle]

Then I'm not sure exactly where we disagree. If we both agree that he feels unhealthy sexual jealousy towards her and that is what separated them.

We disagree because I consider the sexual jealousy justified in the context of their relationship, and because I don't consider it a moral defect.

[Alexia]

We disagree because I consider the sexual jealousy justified in the context of their relationship, and because I don't consider it a moral defect.

So you think it is justified to feel sexual jealousy towards a sibling that one is having sex with, and that it isn't a moral defect to be banging one's sibling? *shudders*

Jaime is a sick, sick man IMO. So is Cersei, for that matter. They are two seriously screwed up individuals and the way their sexual relationship manifests is one huge indicator of this (especially the fact that Jaime has never slept with anyone else, that is actually rather sad). I'm surprised that anyone would think differently.

[mediocre cheese]

(especially the fact that Jaime has never slept with anyone else, that is actually rather sad).

Well he is kingsguard knight. They are supposed to be celibate. It's not more sad than a priest or a nun being virginal.

[Alexia]

Well he is kingsguard knight. They are supposed to be celibate. It's not more sad than a priest or a nun being virginal.

That is sad too. :uhoh: Although celibacy is less indicative of screwed up sexuality than being completely sexually faithful to one's sibling.

[Evamitchelle]

Once again, Cersei is the evil queen and Jaime is the poor smuck she was trying to use all the time. Rolling my eyes!! Cersei actually made it clear that she needed Jaime, but he was too busy having the pity party of a lifetime to think straight. Jaime didn't up and leave because he felt Cersei was immoral; he left because she refused to entertain his folly on the marriage, and he could not get past her sleeping with other men.

He left because she ordered him to leave.

Wow, yes. Jaime begins to show some care and concern for those children after how long again......? And he's supposed to be lauded for that? His thoughts about telling Myrcella and Tommen that they're really bastards shows just how much Jaime's care and concern went. Again, not much further than himself.

Now you're vilifying him with things he hasn't even done. He's considered telling Tommen that he's his father, but he hasn't, that's the point. I'm sure a lot of people in his situation would at least consider the idea of telling their children they're really theirs.

Another puzzling argument that I've seen one too many times to count. This idea that Cersei was making Jaime do her bidding like he was some zombie is absurd. Certainly she may have requested him to do certain things, but Jaime has a mind of his own. It was Jaime who pushed Bran after all - the pinnacle of wretched acts in the series. He did not suddenly find out Cersei wasn't the angel of his dreams because she cheated on him. It was petty jealousy plain and simple. I really think that people hold Jaime in high esteem because he states that he never had another woman but his sister. Ah folks... that isn't normal, and really highlights that something is a bit messed up with the man's sexuality. Cersei isn't to be demonized because of his inability/refusal to be intimate with other women.

Being faithful to your lover is wrong now ? I imagine that a lot of people have only had one sexual partner in their entire lives (like those Christians who swear off pre-marital sex and keep to their pledge). It's called self-control. Jaime's clearly wanted to have sex with other women in his life, he decided not to act on it. I don't see how that can be considered as a bad thing.

Jaime, shirking his responsibility as a parent and refusing to be the heir of Casterly Rock, can afford to be above and beyond the problems that Cersei finds herself mired in. Whilst he can be play the faithful lover role, Cersei has to engage in some things that she makes clear she would rather have not to. We also have Arianne Martell as another woman who uses her body to get what she wants, but somehow I never hear her being villified like Cersei is, and her plans failed just as badly.

I've seen Arianne Martell get just as much hate (like in the half-witted thread where people are considering her and all Dornish women sluts), but she may get some slack because she genuinely loved him at the end of their relationships, and didn't want him to die while Cersei feels nothing but contempt for Lancel for example. Talking about Lancel, how exactly did she have to sleep with him ? You could argue that in Osmund's case it was necessary so she could carry out her plan to get rid of Margaery by framing her, but she only slept with Lancel because she thought it was funny to see him imitating Jaime. And how did she have to sleep with Taena Merryweather ?

[Evamitchelle]

So you think it is justified to feel sexual jealousy towards a sibling that one is having sex with, and that it isn't a moral defect to be banging one's sibling? *shudders*

Yeah, I don't see anything morally wrong with consenting sex between adults. Unhealthy sure, but not immoral. I don't care what consenting adults choose to do in their spare time.

[Alexia]

You could argue that in Osmund's case it was necessary so she could carry out her plan to get rid of Margaery by framing her, but she only slept with Lancel because she thought it was funny to see him imitating Jaime. And how did she have to sleep with Taena Merryweather ?

I would just like to point out that 1) she and Jaime were no longer together when she slept with Osmund and Taena; 2) she didn't think it was funny to see Lancel imitate Jaime, she missed Jaime and felt lonely and so she chose him because he looked somewhat like Jaime (which is just as unhealthy and creepy as being completely sexually faithful to one's sibling, btw *shudders*).

[Evamitchelle]

I would just like to point out that 1) she and Jaime were no longer together when she slept with Osmund and Taena; 2) she didn't think it was funny to see Lancel imitate Jaime, she missed Jaime and felt lonely and so she chose him because he looked somewhat like Jaime (which is just as unhealthy and creepy as being completely sexually faithful to one's sibling, btw *shudders*).

Since Tyrion told Jaime about Osmund at the end of ASoS, before they'd "parted ways", they were still "together" when she slept with Osmund. I didn't say Cersei cheated with Taena, just that she disn't have to do it against her will like brashcandy suggested. And from the text "he had been much more amusing when he was trying to be Jaime" about Lancel in an AFFC Cersei POV.

[Alexia]

Since Tyrion told Jaime about Osmund at the end of ASoS, before they'd "parted ways", they were still "together" when she slept with Osmund.

I confused Osmund and Osney. I hate those names. But Tyrion lied about Osmund. Varys told him that she was only flirting with Osmund, Tyrion started scheming to see if there was a way to get them in bed together and arrange for their father to catch them -- and the matter was never again mentioned, until he lied to Jaime to hurt him.

I didn't interpret the "amusing" to mean "funny" but in that she enjoyed his company more then. YMMV.

[Evamitchelle]

I confused Osmund and Osney. I hate those names. But Tyrion lied about Osmund. Varys told him that she was only flirting with Osmund, Tyrion started scheming to see if there was a way to get them in bed together and arrange for their father to catch them -- and the matter was never again mentioned, until he lied to Jaime to hurt him.

I hate those names too, I can never remember which one did what.

[mediocre cheese]

Its just cultural is it not? I would say that someone who married their first cousin is unhealthy, but there are cultures all over the world where that is the norm. The targaryens marry their siblings (as did the ptolemic dynasty) so it would be seen as a royal custom in westeros. It probably be for the best if jaime and cersei saw other people, but that's not because they are siblings, but because they have such vastly different goals.

[bguy]

In Feast she surrounded herself with a council of imbeciles and/or traitors (I'm one who believes Aurane was a traitor from the beginning) because she was too proud to let anyone give her actual good counsel.

To be fair, she did try to select a competent Hand. He just turned her down. And Kevan's suggestion to her to appoint either Tarly or Rowan as Hand seems rather naive. Appointing either of them would have just further strengthened the Tyrells (who Cersei is right to suspect.) And she did appoint Qyburn to the council, which seems to have paid off for her. (Though I agree with you about Aurane. Trusting him was by far Cersei's worst decision in AFFC.)

As for her allowing the Faith to rearm, its not as though she didn't get anything out of that deal. In one stroke she wiped out 1/6 of the Iron Throne's rather massive debts and strengthened her son's shaky claim to the throne, and her idea of using the Faith Militant against Stannis was hardly unreasonable. Nor is it likely she could have stopped them from rearming anyway given the ongoing civil war and the weakness of Lannister forces.

Her only real mistake in dealing with the Faith was going into the Great Sept without guards, and even that is understandable as she had no reason to believe the High Septon was that much of a fanatic. From a real politic viewpoint, his arresting Cersei was an idiotic move. She was supporting expanding the power of the Faith, and by arresting Cersei, he threw that away and united the Lannisters and Tyrells against him, all for the previliege of a trial that he is going to end up losing anyway (if UnGregor lives up to his promise.) If Cersei and the Tyrells can patch up their differences long enough to deal with a mutual foe then the Faith is going to be in a world of hurt in the next book.

[Evamitchelle]

To be fair, she did try to select a competent Hand. He just turned her down. And Kevan's suggestion to her to appoint either Tarly or Rowan as Hand seems rather naive. Appointing either of them would have just further strengthened the Tyrells (who Cersei is right to suspect.) And she did appoint Qyburn to the council, which seems to have paid off for her. (Though I agree with you about Aurane. Trusting him was by far Cersei's worst decision in AFFC.)

Kevan himself started to think that the Tyrells were getting too strong/too power-hungry in ADwD, so if she'd made Tarly or Rowan Hand it would have been even worse for her (probably not for the kingdom though).

[Alexia]

Cersei's biggest mistake was telling the Iron Bank that they could go fuck themselves. Not that I haven't fantasized the same when it comes to SunTrust Bank, but 1) I haven't done it; 2) SunTrust doesn't employ mystical assassins to collect their debts.

[Ser-Arthur-Dayne]

Sorry! Double post :( Refer to the post on the next page :)